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| Thread: Heroines of Might and Magic |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 21, 2011 08:09 AM |
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Please let it rest, guys. There's really no way we can "prove" any of you to be right, as lore is whatever the developers made it, and who knows what they had in their minds anyway (*cough*Demon Aliens*cough*).
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What will happen now?
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted February 21, 2011 08:37 AM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 15:29, 21 Feb 2011.
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Quote:
(*cough*Demon Aliens*cough*).
Technically speaking, any setting where the demons come from another world, in this specific case, Sheogh, they are Aliens.
The demons of Sheogh are Alien to Ashan as they are not a native class of animals. (I refuse to call them a race because they aren't a race, they aren't even a species, they are MANY different species belonging to several families belonging to a class.)
Ofcourse that is if we get technical.
Obviously you're just using the term to refer to "from outer space with advanced technology" aliens.
Edit: I noticed, that's why I went in on it.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 21, 2011 08:38 AM |
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He means Kreegans. 
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 21, 2011 01:15 PM |
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Jesus Christmas, this discussion
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 21, 2011 01:52 PM |
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Yes, like I said, please let the discussion rest or take it through private message; I don't see anything constructive coming of it.
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What will happen now?
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted February 21, 2011 07:42 PM |
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Fine getting back to the original point. The gender of the units in the games are more or less arbitrary. Just look at all the creatures that have already switched genders.
-Trolls were male in Heroes 1, female in Heroes 2, and then went back to male in Heroes 3 and 4.
-Elf archers were male in Heroes 1, 2, and 3, became female in Heroes 4, and went back to being male in Heroes 5.
-Druids were female in Heroes 1 and 2, and then became male in Heroes 5.
-Genies were male in Heroes 1 and 2, then you get the unupgraded Heroes 3 and Heroes 4 genie being female, finally going back to male in Heroes 5.
-Ghosts/Wights/Wraiths are female in Heroes 1, 2, 3, and 4, but became male in Heroes 5.
-Zombies were male in Heroes 2 and 3, became female in Heroes 4, and went back to male in Heroes 5.
-Water elementals were "female" in Heroes 3 and then became genderless in Heroes 4 and 5.
-The Sorceress faction in Heroes 1 and 2 only had female heroes, once that faction became Rampart/Preserve/Sylvan, it had heroes of both genders.
As for the complaint about Glories looking like naked women. The same complaint can be lodged against Titans in Heroes 5, which looked like Arnold Schwarzenegger in a loin cloth. In previous Heroes game, for every half naked female creature in the game, there's a half naked male creature.
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted February 21, 2011 08:14 PM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 20:15, 21 Feb 2011.
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Quote:
-Elf archers were male in Heroes 1, 2, and 3, became female in Heroes 4, and went back to being male in Heroes 5.
Sorry but male elves don't exist, the reproduce asexually.
Also Water Elementals were genderless in Heroes 2.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted February 21, 2011 10:20 PM |
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Anyway...
To address some points that I missed while I was away for the weekend:
Genders were assigned more or less arbitrarily:
Yes, this is more or less true. Female water elementals in H3, Female archers in H2, Female pegasus riders in H3, Female naga in H3. However, then we look at some of the creatures that were made female in H5 - the Blood Maiden, the Shadow Witch, the succubus, the Rakshasa Rani - and with the exception of the Rakshasa, they're all "dressed to kill", so to speak. Very little clothing, wielding long curvy swords or whips. That's not just an aesthetic choice, like deciding to paint the walls in your child's bedroom pink instead of blue; that's taking your kid to Victoria's Secret for back-to-school shopping.
Naturally, there's going to be some criticism there, and rightly so: there isn't enough female representation in this game that doesn't objectify women in some way.
So in Heroes VI, some of the units are female, to "switch things up a bit". Ghosts are back to being female, which is what they were before anyway. Succubi are dressed to kill, but they're no longer dressed as strippers. They made harpies less hideous - but they didn't make them gorgeous, unless you count someone being athletic as a sign of beauty. And their decision to make harpies look more human and less bird-hag-like is to make the player empathize more with the circumstances that led to the harpy's creation. It demonizes the wizards. And that makes sense.
The problem coms with Haven, and the decision to make the Heavenly Host look like the Ultimate X-Men's Storm. It doesn't objectify women, they'll say, because the Glory isn't a proper woman, and she's empowered, and you can't touch her. But at the end of the day, it's still fan-service.
So to offset the Glory, they made the priest into the Sister. Which would be fine, if the change were merely an aesthetic one - the same unit, but female instead of male. But what they actually did was turn the militant zealot who calls down fire and brimstone into the pacifist nun who stands in the back looking pretty. "Because we'll let women into our army, but we don't want them anywhere near the actual fighting. Uteruses are too damn important."
The trouble is, almost everyone would have been fine with a male priest, or a completely androgynous Glory. But there were a vocal few who spoke up and said, "Hey, you need more women here", and ruined everything.
Because the designers weren't making this game to be politically correct. If they were, there wouldn't be any complaints about the Vestal or the Glory, because they would have been designed from a place of creativity. Instead, they started to create the game to be good, and then political correctness coerced them into making unnecessary changes.
The result isn't bad, but it's jarring, and noticeable.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted February 21, 2011 10:32 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 22:33, 21 Feb 2011.
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Well if people have a problem with the Sister being a pacifist, can't they please complain about that instead of bashing on her for being a lady...
Seriously, if she was a man people might dislike the fact that there is a non-combat unit in the haven line-up that is a man, but instead it happen to be a female and therefore people complain about her gender..?
When they in fact should put their hate on her for being a pacifist not for being a girl.
just my 2 cents ofc...
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 21, 2011 10:58 PM |
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When you look at the Sister you can tell that she spent no less than two hours before the battle to do her hair, fit all the jewels and dress like a real lady.
Drill Sergeant: Octavia, the demons will break our lines, we need your help NOW!
Sister Octavia: Just a minute, Sarge, I need to finish with my manicure!
Drill Sergeant: Damn your manicure, woman, we are dying here!
Sister Octavia: You want me to come out of the tent like the bags you meet at the brothels? Try to die slower, I'm almost done!
Drill Sergeant: *screams horribly and suddenly falls silent*
Juggernaut Ur-Hur-Mur-Gur-Papur: So what's inside this tent... Hello, beautiful, you look gorgeous today!
Sister Octavia: Why thank you, I always knew that even a demon could be a gentleman. Will you excuse me, I have to check what this pig the sergeant wants from me.
Juggernaut Ur-Hur-Mur-Gur-Papur: Ah, don't bother, he changed his mind. Or actually lost it along with the upper part of his body. But did I mention that you are absolutely stunning?
In short - she doesn't look like something that belongs to the battlefield. Mind you that most of the Haven male soldiers aren't much better, they look like people who spend more time polishing their armours for a parade than preparing for something that is very likely to kill them. I have exactly the same problem with the usual depiction of the elves who look like fashion critics brought to the battlefield to dispense the ultimate aesthetic justice.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted February 21, 2011 11:01 PM |
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The issue isn't that she's a pacifist, or that she's a woman. It's that, apparently, in order to make her a woman, they had to also take away her fighting ability.
Or, alternatively but no less insulting to women, in order to make the unit a pacifist, they had to make it female.
Either way, it is a complaint relevant to the unit being female. It's about the idea that women can't fight, and so in order to have women on the battlefield at all, they have to play a support role.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted February 21, 2011 11:07 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 23:15, 21 Feb 2011.
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So what's so different from the sister and the monk?
And please don't say that that monk was ranged and the sister isn't because you don't know if the sister is melee or not.
If a unit uses magic does it need to have fighting capacities?
Edit: And yes I see your point, is she a support unit because she's a girl or what...?
Personally I don't care at all about that.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Charrclaw
Known Hero
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posted February 21, 2011 11:21 PM |
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Sister bashers !
What would you prefer, to be healed by old men or by young women ? I mean come on!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 21, 2011 11:23 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 23:28, 21 Feb 2011.
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The Monk could be considered a zealot who doesn't care for his personal safety that much and is pretty willing to participate in the battle where he could purge as many heathens as possible. The Sister looks like something that prays to whatever can hear her and somehow keep her alive. And then again - the Priest ultimately transforms into Zealot unit. The Heroes V Priest-line - being stolen directly from Warhammer - looks pretty tough on its own. Not to mention that even the basic Priest is heavily armoured and armed.
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maeerol
Hired Hero
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posted February 21, 2011 11:24 PM |
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Edited by maeerol at 23:29, 21 Feb 2011.
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What a discussion! Anyway, we have a... lets say, interesting case, if you just imagine them in a battlemap: if all your units die, and only sisters/vestals remain alive, you will:
A - order them to slap the enemies until their death
B - run for your lives!
C - wait for their prays work and then prorogue your eminent death for some moments.
D - you'll never be in this situation just because you're smart enough to buy less sisters and more pretorians/crossbowmans/glories/sun crusaders/griffins/celestials/resources/...
Hummm... I would choose "D", and let the celestials do their jobs and ressurrect my dead units instead of having sisters to heal the living ones. I would prefer the big zealots/inquisitors that pray AND attack too... They say each of her attacks is like beeing slapped by your mom. So, the poor little pit fiend would cry and say "sorry mom!" He doens't even has a mother!
About the "water elemental" - it must be replaced! We can't let them put that into the new faction!
The zebra-centaur/parrot-harpy/celestial - they look better like that, lets say "it seems much more original".
Lamassu/fate weaver - they are pretty good being females( if the lamassu is a female )
Succubi - the best female unit in the game...
Breeder - at the beggining I didn't like it, but now I do. A giant demon-mother who birth dozens and dozens of demon leeches( imps ) looks awesome.
Glory - These aren't my favorite units, but, indeed are a well planned estrategical unit.
Ghost - I totally agree with nightterror. If is a female, let's call the unit banshee, not ghost!
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted February 21, 2011 11:58 PM |
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What makes you guys think that the Sister is unable to attack and defend herself??
Let me clarify, was the monk from H3 unable to attack? No because he used magic, why shouldn't the sister be able to do the same? Because she's a girl? because she isn't dressed properly? huh?
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted February 22, 2011 12:08 AM |
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I kind of agree with Jabanoss here. there is an underlying theme of something not being kocher in this discussion, and it's clearly more than the sister being a pacifist.
besides, I know from experience that women are just as capable of kicking all kinds of ass as much as men. hell, I know 6 girls who fought off drunken gits in outfits similar to what the Sister is wearing (each on separate occasions), and two of them were doing it in heels.
just sayin'
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted February 22, 2011 12:56 AM |
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@Jabanoss: We're not talking about mechanics. Or at least, I'm not. The art design of the Sister and Vestal is significant of a holy virgin, meant to be fought for, rather than to be fought with.
If it were just mechanics we were discussing, I wouldn't have many complaints at all. But the sister and the Glory (mainly the Glory, but the Sister isn't exactly innocent either) are signs of filler - of the likely event that someone said, "We really need to have at least two female units in every faction, and Angels don't count;" and then, rather than making an existing Haven archetype female (like the swordsman, the zealot, or the archer), they tried to invent something new. Which was brave. But the way they executed the Glory suggests that they didn't give it very much thought.
A feminist would take issue with that, in the same way that a feminist would take issue with the fact that the only female human unit is a virgin nun.
Again, this isn't a discussion about mechanics. I'm actually excited to see what the Sister and the Glory can do. When the game is released, a lot of these issues will become secondary to how the game actually plays. But for the moment, don't you think it's important to examine the design concept from a social perspective, rather than just saying "looks great" or "it sucks"?
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted February 22, 2011 02:37 AM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 03:19, 22 Feb 2011.
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Yeah I know you're not talking about mechanics, but some people were.
However onto addressing this situation that you talk about...
Hmm I wrote this entire mess until I figured out what you really said. 
But I post it anyway since it's concerning “mechanics” 
In any case, your virgin nun-”issue” is quite simple. As I mention further down here, Haven is based on medieval Europe. In normal case women work at home taking care of their family, this they have to do even if there is a war raging. Children and homes needs to be taken care when the man in the house have left to join the war.
However the army still demands skilled healers to support their troops, and where can these healer be found?
Of course in cloisters and monasteries. The Sisters are the perfect choice seeing as they are trained in the way of magic and healing. And since they have pledged their life to Elrath the commanders don't need to fear that they spread “love” amongst the soldiers.
My point is, the most available and fitting support units in this universe happens to be these Sisters and they are indeed virgin nuns.
So the only question is should they invent another “type of human healer” in Ashan that isn't a virgin nun, but instead for example a “strong and independent” woman that's in the habit of having free love.
It's all about preferences and they have to settle for something. Like I said they have based it on medieval Europe so these Sisters are the logical choice...
Mechanics and the Sister as a support unit
I do believe that both the Sister and the Glory are fillers but not entirely in the way you do. When they designed the Haven faction they needed a simple core support unit, a kind of healer. I think it was only after that, that they decided to go for a female support unit.
... And I mean why shouldn't they?
In all previous incarnation of the human faction this role(if it has existed) has been filled by a male unit. When we as customers want a new title of Heroes do we not demand variation and new things?
I know it's not a big difference, but on the other hand I don't see why they shouldn't make it a female unit.
If it happens to be the case that they want to have a certain number of female units in each factions, then one might ask why the Sister? Why the Glory?
I think the logical and obvious answer to that is that female “generally” isn't as physically strong as males therefor they wouldn't be as suited for the roles of Pikemen or Sun Riders.
But lets explore that answer shall we?
Heroes of might and magic is a fantasy, do the females really need to be “weaker” then the males?
Of course not, after all there have always been as many female heroines as male heroes(don't know the exact number, but I assume). There are plenty of other fantasy's where female warriors are just as common as male warriors, for example Oblivion and Dragon Age.
So the question instead is why isn't any of the human warriors female?
Is it because females in Ashan really are weaker or that this is how the human(Haven) society works? Or is it another explanation that developers doesn't want or dare to mix the warrior units(at least not in Haven).
I personally believe it's that this is just the way Haven works, gender roles and all what that means. After all they have said that Haven is based loosely on the mediaval Balkan, and I'm fairly sure female soldiers wasn't the most common sight in those days.
We can make this a lot easier by looking at the other factions, how is the distribution of females in Necropolis, Stronghold and Inferno?
Necropolis
This faction consist of necromancers and undead. The necromancers are mages so presumably the gender doesn't matter.(since we assume that they are equally skilled when it comes to magic)
Skeletons like you said are androgynous, Ghouls seems to be male but they could as well be female seeing as they are raised dead(controlled by magic). The ghost is female, does she has to be? No.
I know we are mostly talking about the sister right now, but I think the ghoul-ghost thing is pretty nice example on how ridiculous this is.
What if they made it the opposite, the ghost is male and the ghoul is a female? Would it make any difference? Not really(at least not to me) So assuming it doesn't matter what solution should they pick? Which unit should be female and what unit should be male.....?
It's kinda like going circles, no matter what the developers choose to do someone will complain and scream "Misogynist!".
Inferno
I like to compare this faction to insect societies. To me the demons in this line-up doesn't really have a specific gender. Yes they are mostly male, but since they reproduce asexually(Breeder) it doesn't matter. However they have two units that ARE female, the Succubus and the Breeder. According to the lore Succubus /Incubus are former humans, dwarfs, elves that have pledged their allegiance to the demons lords thus becoming what they are. So as a unit do they have to be female?
No they don't, but we both know that ”most” fans would be disappointed if they weren't. The Breeder obviously needs to be a female. So the only question remains, should any of the other demons be female? In my opinion I don't think so, to me the rest of the demons are just “soldier ants” so their gender doesn't matter.
Stronghold
I decide not to go through Stronghold as I consider they to be in a similar position as Haven. But I can mention that female units that they have are most certainly warriors and that's something to think about.
That's my whole point actually.
If we ignore the 5th factions, we can see that there are 8 female units in the game, and amongst them only 2-3 of them are support units(Succubus, Sister and possibly the Glory).
I don't know how to finish this, but what I want to say is most female units in this games ISN'T support units, that there is a wide array of different and unique female units.
Which is just the thing that they should be striving for, yes?
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By that way I want to thank you Aosaw for making this thread, it's good that you got a QP for it.
I haven't had this much fun since... Well since Friday when Nighty posted her preview on her next project.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted February 22, 2011 03:50 AM |
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Quote:
Anyway...
To address some points that I missed while I was away for the weekend:
Genders were assigned more or less arbitrarily:
Yes, this is more or less true. Female water elementals in H3, Female archers in H2, Female pegasus riders in H3, Female naga in H3. However, then we look at some of the creatures that were made female in H5 - the Blood Maiden, the Shadow Witch, the succubus, the Rakshasa Rani - and with the exception of the Rakshasa, they're all "dressed to kill", so to speak. Very little clothing, wielding long curvy swords or whips. That's not just an aesthetic choice, like deciding to paint the walls in your child's bedroom pink instead of blue; that's taking your kid to Victoria's Secret for back-to-school shopping.
Naturally, there's going to be some criticism there, and rightly so: there isn't enough female representation in this game that doesn't objectify women in some way.
So in Heroes VI, some of the units are female, to "switch things up a bit". Ghosts are back to being female, which is what they were before anyway. Succubi are dressed to kill, but they're no longer dressed as strippers. They made harpies less hideous - but they didn't make them gorgeous, unless you count someone being athletic as a sign of beauty. And their decision to make harpies look more human and less bird-hag-like is to make the player empathize more with the circumstances that led to the harpy's creation. It demonizes the wizards. And that makes sense.
The problem coms with Haven, and the decision to make the Heavenly Host look like the Ultimate X-Men's Storm. It doesn't objectify women, they'll say, because the Glory isn't a proper woman, and she's empowered, and you can't touch her. But at the end of the day, it's still fan-service.
So to offset the Glory, they made the priest into the Sister. Which would be fine, if the change were merely an aesthetic one - the same unit, but female instead of male. But what they actually did was turn the militant zealot who calls down fire and brimstone into the pacifist nun who stands in the back looking pretty. "Because we'll let women into our army, but we don't want them anywhere near the actual fighting. Uteruses are too damn important."
The trouble is, almost everyone would have been fine with a male priest, or a completely androgynous Glory. But there were a vocal few who spoke up and said, "Hey, you need more women here", and ruined everything.
Because the designers weren't making this game to be politically correct. If they were, there wouldn't be any complaints about the Vestal or the Glory, because they would have been designed from a place of creativity. Instead, they started to create the game to be good, and then political correctness coerced them into making unnecessary changes.
The result isn't bad, but it's jarring, and noticeable.
But as I mentioned before, you can say the same thing about a lot of "male" creatures. Titans wear nothing but a loin cloth, Blade Dancers are bare chested, Genies are bare chested, the upgraded male Raksasha are also bare chested, Minotaurs have that weird S&M gear.
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