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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Meet your Meat
Thread: Meet your Meat [ This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 (4) 5 6 7 ]
JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 05, 2011 10:20 PM

What makes you think brain is required for thinking or memory?

Computers have memory and they don't have any brains. Memory is simply storing information. Plants are capable of this.

Yes, plants can think, they can correct their own mistakes. That's better than most of humanity is able to do so if that doesn't go as thinking I don't know what on earth the most of humanity is doing. Just random off-topic note: Human thinking is only electro-chemical reactions too.

Do try to come up with even one real counter argument. You're a like a religious zealot, I have this one truth and it is only right, nothing else can be right. Saying absurd is not an argument. It is an opinion.

Arrogant, means you think you're better than the rest, usually comes with intelligence. Bad at sports because you can't brag off at school for your peers so you feel the need to look down on people and try to feel superior here. American simply because they are usually the ones with most radical inviduality on the net.

Now about eating, I've got around 170 euros for my monthly food. I'm a big eater so I need around 20 decent sized potatoes a day, that simply costs me some 2 euros a day. So that's 60 euros. Morning oatmeal(cheaper and more healthy than cereals and milk, which I couldn't afford anyways) goes around 10 euros a month. Cheapest protein source is minced meat which goes around 5 €/kilo, next is pork around 6 €/kg, chicken 7 €/kg and comparable amount of fish around 10 €/kg. Soy is around 12 €/ for the same protein and energy comparable to kg of meat. Not to mention it lacks other necessary nutrients so I'd either have to go hunting some costly vegetables or pills with vitamins and minerals so that's out of the question. Monthly expenses from that around 80€ so that makes 150 euros already. Now add juice, around 30€ a month. Joghurt and muesli around 20€ a month and I'm already at 200 euros a month. That's 30 above the amount of money I can use. Where the hell do you expect me to pull money to exhange cheaper ones to soy, tofu 20-40 euros a kilo! or something comparable? And I'm a student living in Finland, what about people who don't even have the option of going to store to buy those things? So tell me, how on earth being a vegetarian isn't a luxury option?

BTW. Might want to check your diet well if you aren't using any mineral/vitamin additives. There is a certain vitamin, which I can't recall now that is almost impossible to get from vegetables. This isn't some rant about being vegetarian this is serious advice.

PS. You drink milk? You do know that to produce milk, a cow has to be impregnated every year? So you're against eating meat because of killing animals but you're A-OK with systematically raping cows every year? You know that almost all of those born from that are sent to slaughterhouses? Especially the bulls. Smells like ignorance or hypocrisy to me.
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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted March 05, 2011 10:22 PM
Edited by Adrius at 22:31, 05 Mar 2011.

Quote:
Well due to the recession various food prices increased, but that'sirrelevant as that's the case with pretty much everything, even Adrius' local moose salami.

Actually no, I have hunters in my family. We don't buy from anyone, we just get parts of what we kill.

Oh and welcome back. Thought you were gone forever, yeah really.
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SkrentyzMienty
SkrentyzMienty


Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2011 10:28 PM
Edited by SkrentyzMienty at 22:47, 05 Mar 2011.

Quote:
PS. You drink milk? You do know that to produce milk, a cow has to be impregnated every year? So you're against eating meat because of killing animals but you're A-OK with systematically raping cows every year? You know that almost all of those born from that are sent to slaughterhouses? Especially the bulls. Smells like ignorance or hypocrisy to me.

Soya milk, I am not a hypocrite. Tastes pretty good actually, try it.
Quote:
So tell me, how on earth being a vegetarian isn't a luxury option?

Because I can afford it in a 3 person family (me, a student, my dad, working for a MINIMAL WAGE, and my mam, who's disabled and cannot work). Sorry, I didn't think that prices of vegetables could be so high Suomessa compared to meat. By the way, only I am vegetarian in my family.
Quote:
See it this way - it makes a difference whether roadkill is an animal or a human, and that's not because the legal consequences are different.

See, most humans like you, don't have the racial (species) objectivity to consider there to be no difference. Well of course there's difference, a human is a human, and a cat is a cat, but so what, is it mental capabilities you are referring to? They are irrelevant to one's right to have a life. I respect my cat more than many people. And on the argument of animals also killing other animals, yes, but don't just unspecifically say anything from an ant to an elephant is an animal. Why is it ironically only the herbivores that are raised to be slaughtered? To tell you the truth, if crocodiles or sharks would be raised for meat I'd be less concerned, though still highly opposing, but I'm just trying to emphacise there isn't just two categories - humans, and all the remaining millions of species.

Oh, and I'm 100% sure humans could scientifically/synthetically conjure meat without killing animals, but it will never happen, because things as they are are "comfortable" and other stuff like pointless and costly space oddysseys or liposuctions for fat celebrities has higher priority than pursuing a way to go on a compromise; satisfy dietary preferences of people like you, AND save innocent cows. But nooo, not in this millenium. The Earth's sooner gonna blow up before some justice comes between people and other animals, and inbetween people themselves.

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 05, 2011 10:30 PM

Can't even afford usual milk, not to mention soya, that is 6 times the price of normal.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 05, 2011 10:31 PM

The purpose of concentration camps was to KILL the inhabitants. That they had to work was only to minimize costs. Jews were to be ERADICATED. Mind you, whether the Jews knew or not is irrelevant - they might have imagined, and that's what you can't say about animals.
But let's not fall for the bait.
Animals are NOT humans.  Lions are lions. Humans are humans. Spiders are spiders. Insects are insects. Fish are fish. It's not the same thing for a human to kill a fish or to kill a human. For a male crocodile it may not make much of a difference whether it feeds on its children or a human - dead meat is dead meat, after all, however, for most humans it matters.
It's not the same thing either to kill a chicken or a human.
By the way, you can buy fledglings for your cat - I mean, the cat has no problem, actually.
See it this way - it makes a difference whether roadkill is an animal or a human, and that's not because the legal consequences are different.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted March 05, 2011 10:43 PM

Quote:
Because killing an animal is no different from killing a human, logical enough?

No, not logical at all.  For one thing, it's not an argument.  It's merely a premise.  And you're going to have to justify it, I'm afraid.  That's how argument works.

I'll help you out.  

Your argument:

Killing an animal is no different from killing a human.
Killing a human is immoral.
You have to kill an animal to eat it.
Therefore, eating an animal is immoral.

That's a sound logical argument, and I'm assuming it's the one you are making even though you haven't come out and said it so clearly. (If that's not the argument you are making, please make your argument very clear.) Assuming this is the argument you are making: I contest two of its premises.

First, I contest that killing an animal is no different from killing a human.  For example, could you please tell me what organisms are different to kill than humans?  Is it the same to kill any animal, or just some of them?  Insects are animals, and I'm sure you have no moral qualms with killing insects.  Fish?  Frogs?  Which ones?  What about plants?  Bacteria?  Fungi?  Which are equivalent to killing humans and which are not.  More importantly, what is it about these organisms that makes the process of killing them equivalent to killing humans.  We need to get to the crux of what it is about the act of killing a creature that makes the act equivalent to the act of killing a human.  You'll find, I think, it's not so easy a question to answer.  For instance.  What about killing a human fetus in utero?  (Ok, let's not go there - it was a rhetorical question asked to make a point.)

(As an aside, I'd like you to justify the premise that killing a human is immoral.  Of course, I agree with the premise.  But I'd like to know what it is about killing humans, exactly, that makes it immoral.  Why don't you start with a definition of morality.)

Second, I contest the premise that you have to kill an animal to eat it.  We could easily remove the legs of cattle for dietary purposes without killing them.  Would that be a moral diet, if I only harvested limbs without actually killing the creatures?  If not, then it is obviously not animal death that you find immoral.

I hope you see what I'm trying to do.  We're honing your argument down to find inconsistencies.  And to find out actually what you believe.  It's easy to just say eating animals is immoral because it's no different from killing humans.  But I think you'll find that beliefs are not so easy to define in a single sentence.  They're much more complex than that.

This is, by the way, exactly what I intend to do with statements you have made concerning religion.  I hope you're ready to look deeply into what you think you believe in order to find out exactly what you do believe.

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mr. Sandman
posted March 05, 2011 10:45 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 22:46, 05 Mar 2011.

@Corribus: I'll make a comprehensive response to your post about the economics of vegetarianism sometime in the future, but I'm dicking around while company is here right now.

@Joonas:
Quote:
Can't even afford usual milk, not to mention soya, that is 6 times the price of normal.


Did you move to Kenya when I wasn't looking? Why would you not be able to afford any of this stuff in somewhere as loaded as Finland? I can buy a carton of soy milk for $3-$4.  
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 05, 2011 10:53 PM

Quote:
@Joonas:
Quote:
Can't even afford usual milk, not to mention soya, that is 6 times the price of normal.


Did you move to Kenya when I wasn't looking? Why would you not be able to afford any of this stuff in somewhere as loaded as Finland? I can buy a carton of soy milk for $3-$4.  

1 liter is around 6-8 € here. It's way more than I can afford. Regular milk costs around 1 € per liter a little over and that's already more than I can afford.

My monthly budget is 470 euros. Living takes 300, 170 is for food. I use around 200 for food in a month so I'm in the red around 30 euros from food alone.

And Finland isn't loaded, it's Nokia that makes the statistical illusion. Take that away and the BKT drops. We also pay around 42% of our income in taxes and the price of food and living is the top of the world here. Only luxembourg monaco and such drive past us, I think switzerland was comparable too. Japan and US, for example, are cheap as hell compared to us.
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SkrentyzMienty
SkrentyzMienty


Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2011 10:56 PM
Edited by SkrentyzMienty at 22:59, 05 Mar 2011.

Quote:
Did you move to Kenya when I wasn't looking? Why would you not be able to afford any of this stuff in somewhere as loaded as Finland? I can buy a carton of soy milk for $3-$4.

That question was on my mind too, just didn't want to get in other people's business by asking it. Well, he is at university currently, so that should be taken into consideration.

@Corribus: I will respond tomorrow as have no time now. For the time being I'd like to quickly clarify, that what I post here, is the tip of the iceberg of my beliefs, so don't be thinking I randomly throw statements that even I am suspected of not believing in. And I know I don't really elaborate on them, but I simply didn't feel the neccessity to do so, seeing as no one else here does either (with the exception of you and one or two others...). But okay, I'll try to make my answer tomorrow as unquestionably well proven as Elodin's biblical-quote machine gun

Quote:
Only luxembourg monaco and such drive past us, I think switzerland was comparable too.

Try living in Poland and be proven wrong And out of curiosity, what was Finland's currency before Euro adaptation? The krona?

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 05, 2011 11:00 PM

Hah, poland is nowhere near Finland, only warsaw apartment prices compare.

Finmark or finnishly, Markka.
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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted March 05, 2011 11:00 PM

Soya milk tastes really bad. Unless it's flavored. Banana soya milk tastes awesome

But try cooking on it. Impossible.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted March 05, 2011 11:06 PM
Edited by Corribus at 15:17, 29 Jun 2011.

Quote:
@Corribus: I'll make a comprehensive response to your post about the economics of vegetarianism sometime in the future, but I'm dicking around while company is here right now.

Take your time.  I've never been one to interfere in a man's need to "dick around".

Even so, I might save you the time by adding that even if you could do an exhaustive analysis of the economics of vegetarianism vs. "omnivorism" (and perhaps someone has, somewhere, published such a document), I'm not sure it would be relevant.  Naturally, such an argument might be taken into consideration when making a lifestyle choice, but I'm not sure you can use an economic argument to prove a moral imperative.  People spend their money how they wish - that's a fundamental aspect of a free society.  So while it might ultimately be kosher to say, "Because growing veggies is cheaper than raising cattle, you might want to consider eating less meat," I find it impossible to justify a moratorium on meat-eating just because eating meat is not economically expedient.  Giving the amount of money we waste elsewhere as a society, there's no reason to conclude that the survival of society hinges on the resources we'd save by collectively converting to vegetarianism.

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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted March 05, 2011 11:06 PM

Milk is one of the most awesome drinks in the world. And milk cows (for the most parts) are very well treated.

Hmm all this talk about meat makes you want to eat a Popsicle...
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mr. Sandman
posted March 05, 2011 11:07 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 23:09, 05 Mar 2011.

I don't know if this brand is just in the US or not, but Silk soymilk is pretty tasty. I'll occasionally buy this stuff just cuz .



It's soy milk but they also add some vanilla flavor, and it blends in very nicely.
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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted March 05, 2011 11:09 PM

Why the hell do they call it milk anyway? Does soybeans have tits?

It should be called juice.
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SkrentyzMienty
SkrentyzMienty


Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2011 11:09 PM
Edited by SkrentyzMienty at 23:15, 05 Mar 2011.

Quote:
Hah, poland is nowhere near Finland, only warsaw apartment prices compare.

Finmark or finnishly, Markka.

. But Finnish salaries are considerably higher too so stop complaining. And it's too bad to hear about the prices, I really want to visit this awesome country in the future, learning the language currently...
Yay suomi raha

Quote:
Soya milk tastes really bad. Unless it's flavored. Banana soya milk tastes awesome

But try cooking on it. Impossible.

Sweetening it is enough. I prefer kakaowe

Why would you try cooking it?

Quote:
Why the hell do they call it milk anyway? Does soybeans have tits?

It should be called juice.

I think it's because it resembles it visually and may be used as it's substitute in various dishes.

That STILL doesn't beat Dick being short for Richard...

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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted March 05, 2011 11:17 PM

I still don't approve of soymilk standing next to my moo-cow-****-milk in the store, giving it bad feelings...
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 05, 2011 11:22 PM

Yeah, after taxes average finns has around 1500 euros left. That's around double compared to poles I think. Doesn't change the fact that students are poor as hell in any way.

But you don't have to pay ridiculous amount for food. If I lived in estonia I could already eat like a king for 100 euros a month. Poland is marked around the same as estonia in living expenditures.
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Celfious
Celfious


Responsible
Legendary Hero
NPC
posted March 06, 2011 01:46 AM

i am a vegetarian sometimes lol

I eat a lot of animals lately but only because society makes it so difficult to go out and eat a meal that does not require the cage bred killings.

I know my current animal consumption is temporary however because I am soon to live with a woman who is exotic with knowledge of vegetarian meals and a lot of other stuff.

When I shop at stores, its rare i will buy a dead animals.


Humans fricking disgust me not only by massive popular acceptance of these unecessary practices but other things aswell. Humans should have respect for their lessors, they should not consider inferiority an excuse or means of justifying this horrible system that causes pain to trillions of animals a year.

I really empithise with any aliens that may witness our overall average stupidity and let us suffer in our own bloody ignorance.


by the way is this me or you?
I really cant tell anymore
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Celfious
Celfious


Responsible
Legendary Hero
NPC
posted March 06, 2011 01:51 AM

the link was a joke like if I were to bust out talking about smurfs or something... by the way....

but the face humans consider inferiority as justification and reason, makes you look really dumb, selfish, ignorant, and downright disgusting.

I feel the guilt for contributing even a dollar into the industry where our simple course of our meal comes from an entire life of confusion, hopelessness, fear, suffering, and flat out unfair treatment.



I have no justification, and I laugh my fricking *** off at the standard omnivorous debates about our teeth are sharp, and animals do it too.

We should then start biting our tongues and consider ourselves animals

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