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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Why is it...
Thread: Why is it... This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
gnomes2169
gnomes2169


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Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
posted April 11, 2011 04:23 AM

Why is it...

That in today's society, it is considered weak to show pity, sorrow, depression or remorse?

Why do people feel pressured into acting like the "Strong man" or the "Invincible protector"?

Why is it deemed wrong or awkward to cry in public?
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 11, 2011 07:11 AM

This is part of the education. Children are taught to control and restrain their emotions - if children display their emotion in public, they attract attention which will make the parent(s) feel awkward, and they don't want to feel awkward.
This is furthered later - kids want to be "cool". Acting cool, aloof, is considered superior. Keeping a cool front is important, because it signals, "I've seen everthing, and nothing can unsettle me."
And once this behaviour has taken roots, there you are.

On the other hand, "how things feel", are the major question for the voyeuristic media part of society. Displays of honest emotions are hunted down and handled like valuable trophies. Watch any event - anything - on TV, and you'll see that afterwards the master question is, "How did you feel when..."

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 11, 2011 07:32 AM

Because if they show these emotions, it implies that they're experiencing them, and there are situations in which if you're not experiencing an emotion, you're considered "strong".
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 11, 2011 09:12 AM

I guess the answer is that society is evil, and that it is good at hurting itself.
If children would be taught to properly cry out, they would have suffered less.
Botteling up emotion is the worst thing we currently have in the western consus of a society.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 11, 2011 09:24 AM

Quote:
Botteling up emotion is the worst thing we currently have in the western consus of a society.
Worse than murder?
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Azagal
Azagal


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Smooth Snake
posted April 11, 2011 11:16 AM

Heres one of my replies in emilsns old Do you Ever Cry? Thread. If the topic interests you I suggest you give it a look Guitarguy proves to provide some great insight along with some other posters.
But here's my post...hehee I was 19 back then but I don't feel any different about the issue.
Quote:
Quote:
I was shocked by the extremity of your views

That actually made me reread my own post. And I guess some things I say come across as pretty cold. So I'll make an effort to make it as clear as possible what I mean.
1. I'm not a loner. I love humans and I feel great in a crowd. Emotions are a perfectly normal thing for everybody and thus one should normally not make an effort to supress them. Crying is one perfectly natural way of dealin with emotions, therefore crying is nothing "weak" or something "condemnable".

Now this is where my point lies.
2. While I say that crying is a natural reaction it is most certainly a sign of weakness (again in my opinion, and as Phoenix noted "weakness" may be too strong a word) if done in certain situations.
First let's define crying:
Crying is the natural reaction to very strong emotions. They can be either sadness, hapiness, you name it. So by crying you'll show my sourrdings that I'm currently in a situation I can't handle.

Now some people may be perfectly fine with showing that they're helpless, while others would be embarresed to no end. Both would react like this for various reasons which range from stupid (peer preassure, attention) to perfectly acceptable (they simply can't help it/ what I'll be trying to explain now).
If we can agree that "crying" will most certainly be a sign of a individuals inability to deal with the situation, then you have my reason why I say crying is a "weakness" as I said in "2.".

Now why would it be desireable to supress something that is natural? In my opinion it lies in the principle of the thing. As I already stated previously I'm convinced that people should be strong (meaning they should do their best to be strong). Strong mentaly. I'm not saying this because I'm some kind of fashist freak/have a superority complex or stuff like that. I'm saying this because being strong has several benefits for yourself and your surroundings.
Crying is the easy way out. That's why I don't like it. Of course the asian influences have been pretty omnipresent in my life but this issue is far more to me than "just" about "losing face".
It's about your ability to controle yourself.
And I believe humans should do their best to be strong. Always taking the easy way out is not something that'll get you anywhere in life.

In "1." I said that one should "normally" not make an effort to cry. By that mean that one shouldn't cry:
1. While you're being an example to somebody (this is arguable and depends on who you're being a example for)
2. In public
3. In front of "enemies" (people who want to make you cry/ who want to hurt you in one way or another)
4. In front of friends (this is a very personal view. Most certainly crying in front of your friends is nothing to be ashamed of since they're you're friends. But I still wouldn't do it simply to not make them worry about me and pity me)

Now Joonas was nice enough to make me realize a mistake I made earlier:
Quote:
(as you just said botteling it up till you're home and then letting it out is not something I'd consider weakness)

That was idiotic of course. What I ment to say was that you shouldn't cry at all. Pull yourself together get home and there you deal with your emotions by yourself or someone else(in my opinion everybody should be able to do this, but aparently I'm too optimistic). Should one not be able to deal with the supressed emotions and suddenly start crying I think that's perfectly fine, because one tried to deal with it before you chose to cry. It's the will and effort to prevent yourself from crying that counts. And I'm convinced that with enough mental strength everybody can succed in doing so.

@GG
Quote:
Am I right in supposing that they're still expected to maintain their composure, regardless of their inner turmoil?

You're right in so far that I exspect everybody to keep their composure. Your problems concern you and only you alone. But I simply don't know enough about "depression" to give you a decent answer. Eventhough I don't want to believe it I'm reasonable enough to not judge depressed people by the same standards I judge "not-depressed" people.
I'm convinced though that depression isn't some sort of sickness you can't do anything against. Getting "depressed" is afterall a long process and a number of factors will trigger a depression. There isn't ONE thing that'll make you go depressed. And if we see depression as a chain of events leading to the big break down then I'd consider them weak. Why? Because they didn't do anything to break the chain. They didn't try to controle themselves, seek professional help, talk to friends, whatever it is you can do to stop the development. The fact that they'd simply let the stuff happen would be what I'd consider weak.

I understand that there are unfortunate individuals who fail despite the efforts that they've made to prevent themselves from failing. Those are by all means not weak but simply unfortunate (sorry I don't know a better word do describe it).

And yeah sorry if I was repeating myself from time to time but it was more or less just to make myself clear this time.

____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord

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DagothGares
DagothGares


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No gods or kings
posted April 11, 2011 12:08 PM
Edited by DagothGares at 12:12, 11 Apr 2011.

Quote:
I guess the answer is that society is evil, and that it is good at hurting itself.
If children would be taught to properly cry out, they would have suffered less.
Actually, the less you give in to negative emotions, such as anger or sadness, the less you are affected or feel the urge to display this emotion.

Also, this is something that links back to evolution. You have more chances of survival, if you don't show when you're in distress or in a weak position.

But what do I know I have stunted emotions, anyway

EDIT: I also agree with azagal on this. Hoorah, 19th century mentality!
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 11, 2011 12:43 PM

Well, I disagree with a couple of them.

First of all, crying is not necessary a sign of an inability to handle the situation. Not at all. Crying, is first and foremost a sign for an emotional overload one way or another, for an overwhelming emotional tide wave. Also it has nothing to do with "taking an easy way out". Never underestimate the ability of a crying person to do what is necessary.

In cases where crying indeed signals an inability to cope, showing or not showing it, doesn't change anything about that fact - it's only kind of HIDING it, which may or may not succeed.

This in turn means, that controlling the urge to cry (or other unrestrained intimate emotion) is important, if showing them could be a disadvantage, for example by losing face. These are exclusively somewhat competetive situations - workplace, school -, situations in which "weak" behaviour stands to lose, since it will cost you reputation.

With people you have a positive relationship, however, controlling deep emotions is never a good idea. Not in the medium and long run, at least. In situations of helplessness, when crying is indeed a signal of an inability to cope, leaning on friends and kin is obviously the only way out - hiding that doesn't stand to gain.

However, OP mentioned feeling of pity, remorse and so on as well, who don't need crying.


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selcy
selcy


Famous Hero
posted April 11, 2011 01:49 PM

I tend to cry when I get really angry as a way to release the pent up frustration as opposed to just going into a rage. If that doesn't help I tend to get mouthy and say stuff then as a last result lash out.

Lashing out in a physical way just leads to resentment. My late husband had a very short fuse he actually kicked me in the back when I was sat on the floor for texting a male friend as according to him men and women can't just be friends. My one daughter has a very short fuse and it has got her into a lot of trouble. The trouble is actually showing her how to control her emotions and what is acceptable and not which is hard when she use to see her father unable to control his. She has just started life skill classes and this shows her how to use what she knows and how to adapt it in to everyday life. Shame they didn't show her this when she was still in mainstream schooling instead of waiting till she got excluded.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 11, 2011 02:09 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Botteling up emotion is the worst thing we currently have in the western consus of a society.
Worse than murder?


Murder is an external action.
Botteling up emotions is a internal action.
Hence not comparable, nor does it have anything to do with what you inpliy.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 11, 2011 02:19 PM

Quote:
Quote:
I guess the answer is that society is evil, and that it is good at hurting itself.
If children would be taught to properly cry out, they would have suffered less.

Actually, the less you give in to negative emotions, such as anger or sadness, the less you are affected or feel the urge to display this emotion.

Also, this is something that links back to evolution. You have more chances of survival, if you don't show when you're in distress or in a weak position.

But what do I know I have stunted emotions, anyway

EDIT: I also agree with azagal on this. Hoorah, 19th century mentality!


You bottle up, and you supress it. What happens is that you have a can, which is under pressure. At some point it WILL blow, and you will lose yourself in whatever the situation is.
Hiding emotion is not the same as denying your emotion.
If you learn to let it out, you can also learn to hide it, neither excludes the other.
But botteling emotion up means you are not letting it out.
Which means that pointing at evolution got nothing to do with it.
Botteling emotion, hiding it or letting it run its rampage is a social construct on how we behave towards these aspects.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


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No gods or kings
posted April 11, 2011 03:20 PM
Edited by DagothGares at 15:26, 11 Apr 2011.

Quote:
With people you have a positive relationship, however, controlling deep emotions is never a good idea. Not in the medium and long run, at least. In situations of helplessness, when crying is indeed a signal of an inability to cope, leaning on friends and kin is obviously the only way out - hiding that doesn't stand to gain.
Actually, "sad" is widely considered to be an undesirable and unpleasant emotion and shouldn't really be encouraged. Suffice it to say, but displays of extreme, negative emotions can put a strain on a relationship, definitely, if it is prolonged.

Del_diablo: There's a relationship between how you feel and how you act. Also, bad feelings don't have absolute measurements. They're relative and humans are not bound to crack "as they pile on," because humans aren't a can and bad feelings aren't things that take up absolute space. Humans are bound to crack if you tell them every day that it's okay to cry (I hate that), though, because then it's as if you're raising expectations.

At least, that's what my experience tells me and what I believe. If you come and link scientific studies. I'll try to hunt down some of my own.

I'm not saying every human being can be Atlas. I'm just saying that "can't" is the cancer of happen.
Also, there is no discernible difference between this "bottling" and "hiding" you speak of, because in both cases, you don't show it.

And evolution does have something to do with it, always!
Humans are a social animal and their behavior isn't a cultural construct, it's got tinges of artificiality (certainly when etiquette has to do with it), but mostly we interact as evolution has produced us to interact (to relieve social needs, etc.). Well, I'm speaking of social interaction, of course, when it's political or economical it's usually very much entirely artificial.

Quote:
That in today's society, it is considered weak to show pity, sorrow, depression or remorse?

I think pitying someone else is highly encouraged, because many people value compassion as one of the highest virtues there is. Sorrow, depression and remorse however are signs you aren't in control of your life and "like, totally, a real downer, bro," so that isn't preferred, unless you're part of some subculture where it's cool to be sad, I guess...
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 11, 2011 03:30 PM

Quote:
Quote:
With people you have a positive relationship, however, controlling deep emotions is never a good idea. Not in the medium and long run, at least. In situations of helplessness, when crying is indeed a signal of an inability to cope, leaning on friends and kin is obviously the only way out - hiding that doesn't stand to gain.
Actually, "sad" is widely considered to be an undesirable and unpleasant emotion and shouldn't really be encouraged. Suffice it to say, but displays of extreme, negative emotions can put a strain on a relationship, definitely, if it is prolonged.

Actually, "FAKE" is widely considered to be an undesirable and unpleasant character trait and shouldn't really be encouraged. You basically display a native emotion so that its straining influene on  relationship isn't prolonged, but dealt and be done with.
If you can't share negatives, why share positives?

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DagothGares
DagothGares


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No gods or kings
posted April 11, 2011 03:35 PM

Shall we compromise by saying that society has a double standard on this?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 11, 2011 04:10 PM

Since it's about the expression of emotions and personal feelings you shouldn't care too much about societal standards.

Take a burial. Severe emotional strain. Is control, "dignified, stony silence" and a mask instead of a face really better than crying rivers before the casket of a beloved one? What is wrong with howling out the pain - one last time, letting it just all out? What's wrong with taking a dive into the deep darkness instead of slowly feeling that you lose the ground under your feet, having the sadness and grieving balled up deep in you?

Which behaviour is better? Does society really expect us to keep it all inside for a year or something, until we magically come over it and take part in proceedings again? Or isn't it better to REALLY grieve for a shorter period to recover faster?

In old times burials were a split event. The first part was grief - unrestrained -, the second was festivity, to celebrate life and go on, with drink and dance.

Bottling extreme feelings up is unhealthy.

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Fauch
Fauch


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posted April 11, 2011 04:25 PM

in professional situations, they always tell me I'm too discreet. you are supposed to show confidence and speak loud and boast a lot to show how you are the best.

but I don't really see how it could work, I think that would most likely lead to people not being able to admit their mistakes because it would prove they are not infallible.

but I suppose the beginning was that lie about survival of the fittest (ok, that's maybe true to some extent) but some people made us believe that it applies to like every instance in life, because that served their interests. I mean, it's a great way to divide people.

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Azagal
Azagal


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posted April 11, 2011 04:37 PM
Edited by Azagal at 16:45, 11 Apr 2011.

@JJ
Quote:
First of all, crying is not necessary a sign of an inability to handle the situation. Not at all. Crying, is first and foremost a sign for an emotional overload one way or another, for an overwhelming emotional tide wave. Also it has nothing to do with "taking an easy way out". Never underestimate the ability of a crying person to do what is necessary.

Well crying is a sign of inability to deal with a situation. You bring up the reason yourself "emotional overload" as in it's too much to bear. It's not wrong to cry in such situations, atleast most of the times.
Oh and I never connected crying as taking the easy way out concerning solving an issue at hand. You're right crying people are most certainly not emotional wrecks with neither rhyme nor reason they're in fact more likely to have an unshakable resolve concerning the problem at hand.
No I'm saying crying is the easy way out when it comes to self controle. Many times I think you should suppress your urge to cry. Suppressing that urge requires willpower and usually a considerable ammount of it. People who don't even make the effort not to cry are simply taking the easy way out rather letting their emotions run free without restraint than being in controle of themselves.

Quote:
With people you have a positive relationship, however, controlling deep emotions is never a good idea. Not in the medium and long run, at least. In situations of helplessness, when crying is indeed a signal of an inability to cope, leaning on friends and kin is obviously the only way out - hiding that doesn't stand to gain.

I'm not sure about "never" nor about whether it might not be helpful in the medium and long run.
Look of course you're right when you say that friends are friends because you know you can talk to them (which however makes your statements towards smithey look peculiar in the moral dillema thread, but that's another story I guess) and by all means if you have a problem with them or someone else and you need their help talk to them!
I however never said that you shouldn't talk to them or that you should deny your emotions. You should deal with the problem and in 95 out of 100 cases you're better off not sobbing and crying when you deal with a problem. My point was that in situations where you're required to keep yourself together be it due to social standards or due to values you demand of yourself you should not break. Be strong or atleast try to be. As emotional as the issue is you can talk about it with your friends about it. I just said that I'm not in favour of that option sometimes because rather than burden people with my problems and make them worry or in a worst case scenario pitty me because of them I'd rather deal with them on my own and gradually see how the situation develops. Maybe it solves itself. If it doesn't you can always talk to people without burrying them under an avalance of complains and sorrow.
Quote:
If you can't share negatives, why share positives?

Sometimes it just better not to burden people with things you'll know they'll take very badly or which will trouble them a great deal.

Look Jolly I'm not sure whether you've read my posts or the thread I linked to but you're pretending like I said you should never cry and that crying automatically makes you somewhat less of a human, which I never did. What I did say is that I think there are certain situations in life where you should be incontrole of your emotions and not let them get the better of you and you seem to agree with me in the 2nd part of the post I've been quoted (I didn't quote the part where you agreed with me lol).
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord

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Azagal
Azagal


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posted April 11, 2011 04:49 PM
Edited by Azagal at 16:51, 11 Apr 2011.

Also some people don't seem to understand that supressing your urge to cry does not mean that you're also denying your emotions. Absolutely not.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted April 11, 2011 05:10 PM

Look, Azzie, what we disagree with is, that I dn't think, crying is negative in ANY way.
We agree however, that there are situations when it is better to avoid/control it.
That, however, is true for sex as well.

And about your statement that suppressing the urge to cry is not DENYING your emotions - no one said that. However, suppressing the urge to cry will come only with a firm suppression of the emotion to blame. Keeping in control means keeping a very firm lid on things, to create a certain distance between yourself and the boiling, roiling emotion.

Crying is a means to exhaust that tornado.

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Azagal
Azagal


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Smooth Snake
posted April 11, 2011 05:15 PM

It is indeed. But there are other means to exhaust that tornado which are equally effective and a lot of the time more dignified and won't make people worry about you. I almost always prefer other options to exhausting that tornado than letting myself go however relieving that may be at the moment.
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord

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