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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime
Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime This thread is 55 pages long: 1 10 20 ... 28 29 30 31 32 ... 40 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT»
Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted September 04, 2012 03:05 PM
Edited by Elodin at 15:07, 04 Sep 2012.

I have already posted the statistics that prove merely having brandishing a gun in your home makes you safer if your home is invaded and have posted numerous instances of people using guns in their home and outside their home effectively in self defense.

The claim that guns don't make the bearer safer has already been debunked rationally. However, statistics and specific recorded instances of guns saving innocent lives will never change the minds of those emotionally opposed to other people being allowed to defend themselves with guns.

Those opposed to gun ownership by private citizens and gun use by cops should also logically be opposed to ownership of coffee cups, butter knives, bricks, stones, and sticks. And should be opposed to people having hands and feet because they can use hands and feet to choke someone to death or kick them to death. And they should favor the mouths of all people being sewn shut since a person could bite another person to death.

However, a person who is approaching the issue rationally rather than emotionally will realize an instrument is not responsible for murder. A person uses an instrument to murder. The person is the murderer. Banning guns, coffee cups, butter knives, bricks, stones, or sticks will not stop people from killing other people. Furthur, such bans will not prevent those who wish to kill from obtaining such items and killing with them.

Guns are not the problem. Scumbags are the problems, and the excuse making of liberals for why the sucmbag is not responsible for what he has done and why he deserves to be back out in society. A huge number of murders are committed by people who already have a criminal record and who are only out on the street because of bleeding heart liberals who refuse to allow them to be held accountable for their crimes.

Clicky

Quote:

"Looking only to official criminal records, data over the past thirty
years consistently show that the mythology of murderers as ordinary
citizens does not hold true. Studies have found that approximately 75% of murderers have adult criminal records, and that murderers average a prior adult criminal career of six years, including four major adult felony arrests. These studies also found that when the murder occurred "[a]bout 11% of murder arrestees [were] actually on pre-trial release"--that is, they were awaiting trial for another offense."

"The fact that only 75% of murderers have adult crime records should not be misunderstood as implying that the remaining 25% of murderers are non-criminals. The reason over half of those 25% of murderers don't have adult records is that they are juveniles. Thus, by definition they cannot have an adult criminal record."

Sources cited by the above excerpt:

An FBI data run of murder arrestees nationally over a four year
period in the 1960s found 74.7% to have had prior arrests for violent
felony or burglary. In one study, the Bureau of Criminal Statistics
found that 76.7% of murder arrestees had criminal histories as did 78%
of defendants in murder prosecutions nationally. In another FBI data
run of murder arrestees over a one year period, 77.9% had prior
criminal records [Guncite note: 50.1% had prior convictions (Kleck and
Bordua at p. 293)]. Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Rep.
38 (1971).



Again, people are the murderers, not guns, coffee cups, bricks, sticks, stones, or anything else. It is the criminal and the criminal alone who is the responsible party.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 04, 2012 03:20 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 15:47, 04 Sep 2012.

Quote:
The claim that guns don't make the bearer safer has already been debunked rationally


I disagree. You ignored most of my arguments, replied to a chosen few with citing biased (didn't Corribus cover this already?) info, and then, you boast how you've "proven" something. Well, you may feel you're proven to the rest of the world that guns are the best "deterrence" as you called them ever, but I feel you're simply misguided in your reasoning, and you conveniently skip the arguments you don't feel like taking on.

It's fine. You're free to think that in a free world, I see no issues there. Just don't go all "I've proven you wrong" when nobody but you feels that way. Citing Schopenhauer:

Quote:
Avoid claiming you have proven something when it doesn't seem to be proven by you at all


take from his "Eristic Dialect" book.

I see nothing rational in your reasoning. Your arguments can be easily debunked by common logic:

- Thefts mostly occur when you're out of home
- Thefts mostly occur when you're asleep
- If somebody assaults your house, he's probably not alone and you're not superman.

In those cases, you're screwed anyway, whether you have a pistol, shotgun or even minigun in your gun case or not.

also

- Gun-banning Europe has pitiful amounts of gun-related crime (and pitiful amount of crime altogether in civilized European countries) as opposed to gun-free US.


You also claimed that guns are good on the street because you are a great shot. Which might be true, but we're talking about average Joe here, not an ex-military guy. It's like saying banging your head against the wall is a great method of relaxation for everyone since it helps me in particular.

And no, it doesn't. It's just an example.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted September 04, 2012 03:38 PM

People should be wary of claiming that anything is ever proven.  The best you can really hope for is statistics, not proof.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 04, 2012 03:43 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 15:44, 04 Sep 2012.

Quote:
People should be wary of claiming that anything is ever proven.  The best you can really hope for is statistics, not proof.


Which also have to be analyzed critically. It's like saying "the major Polish party is backed up by 40% Poles". It's a statistic that's really overused in media here. Too bad that it's "40% of those who voted", which makes it 40% of 28% of total population of my country - or 11,2% in total.

Funny that we call this democracy, by the way, no?

Bottom line: Taking statistic as a given can lead to spreading false or biased info.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted September 04, 2012 04:16 PM

Surely the voting turnout in Poland can't be 28%?

Edit : oh you were comparing to total population of Poland, well but that is not accurate heh, a 3 year old surely has no opinion of politics...
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 04, 2012 04:22 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 16:23, 04 Sep 2012.

Quote:
Edit : oh you were comparing to total population of Poland, well but that is not accurate heh, a 3 year old surely has no opinion of politics...


It's 28% of those allowed to vote. You're right, I screwed up typing that.

can't say which one of the votings scored that low (the usual vote rate is usually near 40%), but it's a true story that happened a few years ago.
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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 04, 2012 10:01 PM
Edited by Ghost at 22:02, 04 Sep 2012.

Yes man is a murder, the gun is not. But do not be given a gun, cause violence, murder and war. If you want to protect your home, you need a lot of money, you can hire guards. Go to center, shop or bar with the warden, if you want to.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 05, 2012 02:00 AM
Edited by Fauch at 02:01, 05 Sep 2012.

Quote:
Those opposed to gun ownership by private citizens and gun use by cops should also logically be opposed to ownership of coffee cups, butter knives, bricks, stones, and sticks. And should be opposed to people having hands and feet because they can use hands and feet to choke someone to death or kick them to death. And they should favor the mouths of all people being sewn shut since a person could bite another person to death.


well, but having a gun makes the job much easier. also you'll rarely accidentaly bite someone to death

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 05, 2012 02:21 AM

Quote:
Those opposed to gun ownership by private citizens and gun use by cops should also logically be opposed to ownership of coffee cups, butter knives, bricks, stones, and sticks [flamethrowers, elephants, sledgehammers, ...]


In principle, anything at all. After all, even the smallest things can potentially hurt us if applied the right way. The air we breath should be forbidden, oh noes!!
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Thunder_Titus
Thunder_Titus


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
Inventor
posted September 05, 2012 02:26 AM
Edited by Thunder_Titus at 02:39, 05 Sep 2012.

No matter what's the objects original purpose it can be used to kill people. Anything that kills people is a weapon( liquid oxygen is a weapon; if you throw that at someone they could die).

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 05, 2012 02:47 AM

Spam also is a powerful weapon.
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Thunder_Titus
Thunder_Titus


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
Inventor
posted September 05, 2012 02:48 AM

Like I said anything is a deadly weapon( sometimes spam)

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 24, 2012 05:16 PM

Houston police fatally shoot threatening wheelchair-bound amputee in head.

Source

I guess he did not cooperate when being told to "stay still!"
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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
posted September 24, 2012 05:32 PM
Edited by gnomes2169 at 17:33, 24 Sep 2012.

Stabbing is generally not staying still, no.

The last quote makes me laugh though...

Quote:
"This was an incident that didn't have to take place if the individual -- a police officer -- had been trained in dealing with emotionally disturbed individuals."

The percentage of mentally disturbed individuals that the Police Force has to deal with that they aren't already trained to handle (Training is given for: Psychopaths, Sociopaths and Bi-Polar individuals) is about 3-5% of the cases around the USA and most of Europe on a yearly basis. It just isn't cost-effective to train your average officer in four years of rigorous psychiatric tutoring for that one person they might encounter in their lifetime.

Could this have been handled better? Yes, by the patient's handler keeping a more watchful eye on his/ her patient. Unlike the police force, mental institution staff are trained to deal with situations like this. This (undeniably) crazy guy should not have gotten within five feet of the officer, let alone been allowed to corner the man and try to stab him. I view this as a failure on the side of the mental hospital, not on the police force.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 24, 2012 05:38 PM

"The officers made verbal commands for the suspect to drop whatever he had in his hand, to stay still and to speak with the officers, but the suspect continued to make threats,"

Stabbing, with a pen? What now, a spoon will be also a dangerous weapon?
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 24, 2012 05:53 PM

You've no idea what a spoon can do in the hands of a law offender. You can't just train the cops that "there is no spoon", that's not how the real life works.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 24, 2012 05:54 PM

ok ok, so how dangerous would be a spoon held by a double amputee on a wheelchair?
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 24, 2012 06:02 PM

A spoon is harmless only in the hands of a departed. Except if you stumble upon him and he inactively tries to stab you. Then you are allowed to shoot for self-defense.

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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
posted September 24, 2012 06:16 PM

The non-cornered officer cannot be expected to be able to see the weapon the suspect is wielding, and do you know how many people have been killed by less in the hands of a mentally disturbed individual? Of course, none of those were felt tipped pens, but once again it is unreasonable to expect an officer to determine that while his buddy is being stabbed... And just because he is missing an arm and a leg does not mean that he can't move with the assistance of a motorized wheelchair. He cornered the officer somehow, so obviously the phrase "Stay still" would be apt for the situation.

Once again, the hospital staff should have been able to stop this rather easily. Just grab the chair and move it before anyone gets pinned, cornered, etc.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 24, 2012 06:24 PM

It seems nothing can be expected of a cop other than the normal things that can be expected of your regular John Doe. I kind of fail to see what's the point in paying for police protection then.

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