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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime
Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime This thread is 55 pages long: 1 10 ... 14 15 16 17 18 ... 20 30 40 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT»
Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2012 04:03 AM

you can have booby traps with miniguns

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 31, 2012 09:55 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 09:58, 31 Jul 2012.

I'd also add rocket launchers, you never know when they are going to invade your home in a tank.

I recall reading through a statistic that 96% attempts to "defend" yourself with a firearm are failures, but since I can't remember where, I won't use it as argument. Still, it seems reasonable. Stress, fear, panic, element of surprise - guns are worthless whenever one of those appears, and those are extremely common mug/rob hazards. Most of the time at least one of those is a given.

I'm really puzzled why people invest in a stack of shotguns instead of getting a solid alarm system. it's not going to fail when you're panicked, for one...
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted July 31, 2012 10:38 AM

Quote:
If it has no effect,why remove it? Its actually good business. Actually,removing guns could cause more issues. Gun control is no real solution based from this excerpt from the links below:
The pray tell how the countries where the population doesn't find it necessary to arm itself to the teeth manage maintain order with so many "negatives". Refer to Western Europe for example.
Quote:
A cop cant prevent somebody firing a bullet with an illegal weapon. Crime prevention usually works with deterrence and punishment, not with some sheriffs patrolling your home.
It's not the cop's job to prevent the firing of bullets, it's impossible to supervise everyone and everything 24/7, hence some crimes will happen if their perpetrators are "dedicated" enough. However it's certainly the cop's job to reduce the crime rate to the possible minimum. Surprisingly enough, patrolling helps (though it's just one method to do the job). I'm not sure how it's in the US but here in Bulgaria (that's in the Balkans) a police car in the neighbourhood automatically means that the local troublemakers will lay low at least until it leaves. One of my previous jobs was next to a pub which served as a gathering point of the local drug dealers so I think have a first hand observations on the matter. And that's after 23 years of pseudo-democracy which pretty much destroyed the police institution (read - it had much bigger authority and power before the fall of the socialist regime, though it had other flaws like serving as one of the Communist Party's enforcement agencies).
Quote:
I believe that Police are there for law enforcement
I don't quite understand what do you mean by "law enforcement". What laws do they enforce? If gangsters run amok in the area, rob homes and shoot people before the police arrives, then it's not enforcing anything. If some psycho shoots at people who enter his lawn just because they have done so, the police is again not enforcing anything. If a policeman's only job is to go to the crime scene and say "yup, we have a murdered man/woman here and that's against the law", then the locals should stop paying taxes for police, obviously their money are going to waste.
Quote:
Balkans? The only thing that can prevent crime here is a gang with ak 47's. Unfortunately,gangs rarely adhere to laws.
I dont think you know balkans as much as I do,especially Albania,Serbia,Macedonia,Kosovo etc.
I think I already answered that.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted July 31, 2012 01:21 PM
Edited by Elodin at 13:24, 31 Jul 2012.

Quote:

I recall reading through a statistic that 96% attempts to "defend" yourself with a firearm are failures, but since I can't remember where, I won't use it as argument. Still, it seems reasonable. Stress, fear, panic, element of surprise - guns are worthless whenever one of those appears, and those are extremely common mug/rob hazards. Most of the time at least one of those is a given.

I'm really puzzled why people invest in a stack of shotguns instead of getting a solid alarm system. it's not going to fail when you're panicked, for one...


Nice try, but your stats are false and pretty much the reverse of the facts. Firearms are used with great success in defending one's home all the time. Over 90% of the time just displaying a firearm makes a burgular flee.

Oh, and a gun can save you if your home is invaded. An alarm can't. The police won't get there in time. A shotgun is easy to hit a burgular with even when you are scared. Just point it in his direction and pull the trigger. 00 buckshot is pretty much a guaranteed knockdown and odds are he won't be getting back up.

Here are a few quotes of actual facts from the first page of this thread. I suggest you reread the entire article.

Quote:

One out of thirty-one burglars has been shot during a burglary. [FN25] On the whole, when an American burglar strikes at an occupied residence, his chance of being shot is about equal to his chance of being sent to prison. [FN26] If we assume that the risk of prison provides some deterrence to burglary, it would seem reasonable to conclude that the equally large risk of being shot provides an equally large deterrent. In other words, private individuals with firearms in their homes double the deterrent effect that would exist if government-imposed punishment were the only deterrent.



Quote:

The researchers found that six percent of the sample population had used a firearm in a burglary situation in the last twelve months. [FN32] Extrapolating the polling sample to the national population, the researchers estimated that in the last twelve months, there were approximately 1,896,842 incidents in which a householder retrieved a firearm but did not see an intruder. [FN33] There were an estimated 503,481 incidents in which the armed householder did see the burglar, [FN34] and 497,646 incidents in which the burglar was scared away by the firearm. [FN35] In other words, half a million times every year, burglars were likely forced to flee a home because they encountered an armed victim.



Quote:

The most thorough survey of citizen defensive gun use in general (not just in burglaries) found that in well over ninety percent of incidents, a shot is never fired; the mere display of the gun suffices to end the confrontation. [FN43] The CDC study did not specifically ask whether a gun was fired. [FN44] Accordingly, it is reasonable to infer that burglary DGU is similar to DGU in general, and that most incidents end with the burglar fleeing at the sight of the armed victim, rather than the victim shooting at the burglar.


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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 31, 2012 01:28 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 13:29, 31 Jul 2012.

Quote:
Oh, and a gun can save you if your home is invaded. An alarm can't. The police won't get there in time. A shotgun is easy to hit a burgular with even when you are scared. Just point it in his direction and pull the trigger. 00 buckshot is pretty much a guaranteed knockdown and odds are he won't be getting back up.


Guess what? He can do the same. If he's faster, you're dead.

What a "reliable" self defense weapon. Geez.

If you have an alarm system and a big dog, that's an awful lot of effort just to get in your house. It repels criminals 100000000000000000000000x better than the possible shotgun locked in your cabinet. Is it that hard to understand?

Not sure about the statistics. As I said, it was long time ago, I would have to search, so I'm not going to argue atm.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted July 31, 2012 02:13 PM

Elodin,

I get the justification for small arms, shotguns, hunting rifles, and the like.  What I've never seen is a decent justification for assault rifles, and yet gun control advocates refuse to even have a conversation about them.
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted July 31, 2012 02:18 PM

Assault rifles sell for $500+ It's good for business as Elodin pointed out, besides it gets the job done more effectively and I dare-say efficiently (unless you enjoy pissing 30 5.56 rounds at your walls and furniture in 2-3 seconds)
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted July 31, 2012 03:42 PM

Quote:
In other words, half a million times every year, burglars were likely forced to flee a home because they encountered an armed victim.

Ever thought about getting down the numbers of attempted burglars instead of trying to kill the burglars?
You know any "modern western nation" who has similar numbers?
The lower the minimum life standard in a country is, the higher is your criminal rate.
So maybe you do something against this low life standard?
- Free health care for example...
- Free education...

But as I mentioned already....to see the whole thing from this point of view, a change in the basic idea is needed... WE instead of I I I I ...would be a good start...
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Retired Hero
posted July 31, 2012 03:54 PM

Those must be extremely stupid burglars you have there. They encounter an armed guy and they flee... hey, in a gun-free country, who would have thought the victim may have a weapon! Rocket science.

If you had smarter burglars who rob in groups and buy guns themselves, things would look different
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


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Scourge of God
posted July 31, 2012 04:27 PM

If you're an active criminal then you can acquire guns and ammunition without too much trouble in a gun free country. While the majority of victims cannot.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 31, 2012 04:39 PM

I would probably shoot myself in the groin if a burglar breaks in middle night. It takes a lot of guts and training to keep cold blood in such situations.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted July 31, 2012 04:46 PM

Why does it sound like even burglars are serial killers in America


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2012 04:57 PM

Doesn't it sound like they were sissies?

I mean, the way it sounds you could point ANYTHING on them, like, say, a water pistol or a crudge or a broomstick, and they would flee in utter panic.

The way it sounds you may just play a tape or something: "Hands up, you ****, or I'll blast you to little pieces!"

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted July 31, 2012 05:39 PM

If politicians really want to do something about mass shootings they need to allow people to carry guns with them. The Constitution says the people have the right to keep and bear [carry] weapons. The Founding Fathers said that citizens should be at all times armed.

There is not the slightest reason to believe that an assault rifle ban would stop mass shootings or violent crime in general. Such bans are pointless.

Below is a portion of an article that pertains to this discussion.

Clicky

Quote:

If Obama wants to campaign against semi-automatic guns based on their function, he should go after all semi-automatic guns. After all, in 1998, as an Illinois state senator, he supported just such a ban -– a ban that would eliminate most of the guns in the United States.

But no published peer-reviewed studies by economists or criminologists find the original federal or state assault-weapons ban reduced murder or overall violent crime.

Since the federal ban expired in September 2004, murder and overall violent-crime rates have actually fallen. In 2003, the last full year before the law expired, the U.S. murder rate was 5.7 per 100,000 people. Initial data for 2011 shows that the murder rate has fallen to 4.7 per 100,000 people.

The big problem with gun control is that it is the law-abiding good citizens, and not those intent on committing the tragedies like those in Colorado, who obey these laws.  It is hard not to notice, but very aggressive gun control hasn’t prevented multiple-victim public shootings in Europe.

In last year’s shooting near Oslo, 69 people were killed and an additional 110 injured. Germany, a country with some of the strictest gun control in the world — it requires not only extensive psychological screening but also a year’s wait to get a gun — has been the site of three of the worst five multiple-victim K-12 public school shootings in the world, all in the past decade. There are more examples of attacks in countries with strict gun control, like in Austria, Britain, France, Finland and Italy.

The guns used for the attacks in Germany and Norway were obtained illegally. When individuals plan these attacks months or even years in advance, it is virtually impossible to stop them from getting whatever weapons they want.

If we finally want to deal seriously with multiple-victim public shootings, it is about time that we acknowledge a common feature of these attacks: With just a single exception, the attack in Tucson last year, every public shooting in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed since at least 1950 has occurred in a place where citizens are not allowed to carry their own firearms. The Cinemark movie theater in Aurora, like others run by the chain around the country, displayed warning signs that it was prohibited to carry guns into the theater.  

All the public mass shootings in Europe fit this rule. Take Switzerland, which has very liberal concealed carry laws.

The country also has had several big public mass shootings over the last decade, but there again all of their attacks have taken place in the few areas where guns are banned.

Last week, President Obama promised that gun control was going to be an important topic in the presidential campaign. The issue was really always there, even if it wasn't being openly debated. Whoever wins the presidency will likely determine who controls the Supreme Court and the fate of gun control laws.  

Bans, like the gun-free zones, can be counterproductive.  Hopefully, the debate will finally acknowledge that well- intended laws are not enough.  



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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 31, 2012 05:40 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 17:42, 31 Jul 2012.

Quote:
If you're an active criminal then you can acquire guns and ammunition without too much trouble in a gun free country. While the majority of victims cannot.


Not true. Most muggers in my country are devoid of firearms. Only organized gangs have firearms, but those don't mug people, they aim higher.

You can also have a minigun, you're still going to get mugged when someone takes you BY SURPRISE and sticks a kitchen knife to your neck. And guess what, that's the most common scenario of mugging on streets.

People should watch less Hollywood movies, they completely skew reality. Why do you people fantasize about you readying your double .45 and killing the muggers (whom you identified as muggers before they saw you) from across the street? Do you really think that criminals are that stupid?

Well, according to Elodin's data, they are, but nvm.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2012 06:31 PM

Quote:
The Constitution says the people have the right to keep and bear [carry] weapons.


the constitution says it, and what?
you haven't heard of the european constitution?
because you would lose faith in constitutions.

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted July 31, 2012 06:44 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 18:53, 31 Jul 2012.

@Doomforge

Ok,why the hell is it then wrong to keep firearms? Its good business, it does nothing to crime rates(It hypothetically causes some and prevents others) and it gives people a sense of security?

Burglar with gun takes you by surprize? Cool. Having a weapon at least gives you a means to fight back.

Some specops burglar 1337 dudes will break your house in each case. If we would take the regular case of a guy with a knife or a screwdriver, you having a gun is an advantage. If the regular dude has a gun, he is in either case in an advantage.
And no, I dont believe in some spec ops dude crawling with a military grade knife and slicing your head in silence. Thats BS. In a realistic scneario, a burlar would flee if gunshots were heard.

Gun control is more about control than guns.

In a country where firearms were available before, there is 0 sense to remove them now.
In the worst case scenario, you and all your family dies. In the best scenario the burglar gets arrested.

When guns are openly, the scenario of a guy going nuts and killing 12  guy is as possible as a in a case without guns.
Remove guns completely and put strict gun control is no sollution when you can drive 100 KMs, buy a gun and kill X people.

Or in your case you believe in, a regular burglar has knife to confront you and you have a knife aswell so, its still the same BS.

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted July 31, 2012 06:45 PM

Quote:
I'm really puzzled why people invest in a stack of shotguns instead of getting a solid alarm system. it's not going to fail when you're panicked, for one...


I guess some people dislike the idea of waiting 10-20 minuttes for actual aid.
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted July 31, 2012 07:00 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 19:07, 31 Jul 2012.

Quote:
I guess some people dislike the idea of waiting 10-20 minuttes for actual aid.
____________


And that would only occur in France where you're obligated to help out, in other cases you'd just curse the moron who woke you and go back to sleep asap since you have work in the morning, and not go gallivanting to your neighbor's house (in which case YOU might be mistaken for an intruder)

And if you meant to police then LOL, I once called them for attempted murder, took them 30min to arrive. (believe me I was counting every ****ing second) situation was resoled and the perpetrator subdued looong before they arrived.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2012 07:36 PM

Frankly, I don't understand the obsession with guns. If you want to guard your home, a gun is absolutely useless, once you are not at home.
So wouldn't it be better to allow people mining their homes? Traps? Booby-traps? High voltage? Poison darts?
Something that kills, maims or incapaciates an intruder upon entering illegally?

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