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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime
Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime This thread is 55 pages long: 1 10 20 ... 21 22 23 24 25 ... 30 40 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT»
Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted August 11, 2012 12:45 AM

This thread veered gone off course.  Expect a cleansing soon, and try to stay on topic please.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 11, 2012 11:15 AM

Quote:
This thread veered gone off course.  Expect a cleansing soon, and try to stay on topic please.

I think, it's still on topic: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime
If you argue about deterence of crime, legal punishment of crime  - as a deterence factor - is on topic (as opposed to deterring crime by arming yourself and your household to the teeth). These things are interconnected - there is an obvious connection between personal use of guns and death penalty; or can you imagine a country that would forbid the death penalty, but allow everyone to carry a gun and bang around if in doubt? On the other hand if there IS a death penalty - that is, if the state authority can punish evildoers with death by poison or electricity or quartering or whatever, it would be difficult to explain to the public why guns should be controlled.

Lastly, the religious aspect is important as well for a couple of reasons, but I agree that it's difficult to discuss without getting too personal, since of course it IS quite personal. Still, the ... blood lust ... of the religious right is worth a closer look in this as well, since it's so telling. In fact, it shouts volumes, very loud and very clear.

I mean, look at this exchange:

Quote:
Quote:
Spoken like a true disciple of Jesus Christ.

Yes, it was. By your backhanded insult...


How can something be true AND an insult? And by understanding it as an insult - aren't you already admitting something?
Consider this: someone says he's on diet since he's become too fat. You meet him in a restaurant where he's shovelling a double burger with fries and half a litre sugared Coke. You say, "hey, that looks like you would take your diet plans very serious." What are your thoughts, when the answer is: "Well, I DO, and your insult shows, that..."

Anyway. It's the same old song. People all have no idea about nothing, especially "libbies" who are sissies and would let there fanily be raped by everyone who comes around, instead of blastim them to pieces how Jesus would have done it, what everyone would know if he had a correct understanding of the bible.

God wants us to defend our families against the evil scum, and there's nothing like a shotgun to teach them a lesson and do God's work. Amen.

I feel like puking.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted August 12, 2012 06:45 PM

@JJ

If you wish to hold a discussion about religion please refer to one of the religion threads. I'm not sure where the appropriate place would be for you to continue your personal comments about me. If you wish me to defend my Christianity or views of same perhaps the religion thread also.

Below is an incident that demonstrates what I have encountered when working in law enforcement. A man on drugs who was pepper sprayed repeatedly to no effect. The officers wound up having to shoot him because he continued to advance on them with a knife.

Like I said, pepper sray is better than nothing but it is not as good for self defense as a gun is.

Clicky

Quote:

A man who allegedly threatened police officers with a knife was shot and fatally wounded Saturday afternoon near Times Square in Manhattan, authorities said.

The 3 p.m. incident, which occurred in an area popular with shoppers and tourists, began when officers approached a man because he was smoking what appeared to be a "marijuana cigarette," said Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne.

The man, 51, became agitated and brandished a knife, which had a 6-inch blade, near Seventh Avenue and 44th Street, said Browne.

Additional officers responded and pepper-sprayed the man six times, to no effect, when he menaced police with the knife and refused to drop it, according to Browne.

"He advanced on uniformed officers, refusing officers' repeated commands to drop his weapon," the deputy commissioner said.

The man was shot at Seventh Avenue between 37th and 38th streets by two officers after he refused to drop his weapon, according to police.

The unidentified individual was transported to the hospital, where he died.

It remained unclear Saturday evening whether the suspect injured any pedestrians prior to being shot. Three officers were treated for ringing in the ears, presumably from the sound of the gunshots.

Browne said the officers involved in the shooting will be on required administrative duty while the incident is reviewed.


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 12, 2012 07:09 PM

You mean, two plus "additional" police officers were not able to handle the threat of one stoned guy with a 6-inch knife better than shooting him to his near death?

Ok, I take back what I said. In the US, never trust a cop for anything else than being able to hand you a ticket for speeding. With everything else they will either fail or blast everyone and everything.

Seriously...

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted August 13, 2012 06:14 PM
Edited by Elodin at 18:16, 13 Aug 2012.

Quote:
You mean, two plus "additional" police officers were not able to handle the threat of one stoned guy with a 6-inch knife better than shooting him to his near death?

Ok, I take back what I said. In the US, never trust a cop for anything else than being able to hand you a ticket for speeding. With everything else they will either fail or blast everyone and everything.

Seriously...


Amazingly, most police officers don't want to die and so when rushed by a knife wielder will shoot said person. Your "never trust a cop" attitude is without merit. Cops put their lives on the line to protect the public and should be respected for that.

The Obama administration instructed border patrol agents to run away and hide if shot at. Are you saying the NY police officers should have run away and hid from the man charging them with a knife? And what if one officer fell and the knife wielder jumped on him and started stabbing him. Would it be ok to shoot him then?
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


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Scourge of God
posted August 13, 2012 06:38 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 18:48, 13 Aug 2012.

Quote:
Are you saying that NY police officers should run away and hide from a man charging them with a knife?


Lol, close but not quite, we not only expect cowardice from police, we want the population disarmed too, afterall what do we have police for?

The safety of criminals is paramount.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 13, 2012 07:25 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 20:03, 13 Aug 2012.

Police is supposed to be trained accordingly those type of threats. Anyone holding a gun can kill a guy holding a knife. The cops are trained to handle dangerous situations or just shot every time they feel?

Then everyone can be a cop. We have at least one member here who is the perfect candidate.

They could shot in leg, in the arm holding the knife, but they just killed him. I came along tens of videos showing US police brutality and lack of professionalism. Just wannabe untrained super-fat cops, payed to spread more violence in a completely paranoid state.

Disturbing
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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted August 13, 2012 08:14 PM

American style! RoboCop might be able to tell better.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 13, 2012 08:32 PM

Just as an additional information: they fired 12 bullets into the guy.

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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


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Scourge of God
posted August 13, 2012 09:19 PM

You can never be sure.
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Elodin
Elodin


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Free Thinker
posted August 13, 2012 09:57 PM

The officers aimed for center of mass, as trained. Like I always tell people to shoot for self-defense. The man lunged at them and was three feet away. Anyone who thinks you can get a "leg shot" or shoot his right pinkie to make him drop the knife in those conditions is clueless.

The officers had pepper sprayed the man six times already to try to disarm him.

It turns out the man was a career criminal and had 11 prior arrests including for robbery and pot possession.

Clicky

Quote:


Police say they approached Kennedy because they believed he was smoking marijuana. He allegedly became belligerent, and, in a confrontation widely captured by cell phone cameras, he led a growing number of officers through Times Square brandishing an 11-inch kitchen knife. After refusing to put down the knife, police say he advanced on two officers, who opened fire when he was three feet away. 12 shots were fired—one officer fired nine times, the other three.

Kennedy was pronounced dead at Bellevue Hospital, where he was taken in 2008 after police say he created a disturbance in Times Square by kicking over garbage cans. A month later, in November 2008, he allegedly threatened officers with a screwdriver after the tried to stop him from harassing drivers near Lincoln Center. The Times reports that he was sentenced to 40 days in jail for resisting arrest. The Post reports that he had 11 priors, including busts for pot possession and robbery.

Kennedy's last known address was Hempstead, Long Island. Newsday spoke with his cousin, Kathy Johnson, of Hempstead, who said she last saw her cousin at her mother's birthday party in June, and he seemed fine. "It was too many bullets, the killing," Johnson tells Newsday. "They could have given him a warning shot, probably a shot in the leg or the arm." But Charles H. Ramsey, commissioner of the Philadelphia Police Department, tells the Times that officers are trained to aim for “center mass,” not the limbs of a suspect, when using deadly force.

Police tried using pepper spray six times on Kennedy, according to NYPD spokesman Paul Browne, who told reporters, "No officer on the scene had a Taser. The overarching guideline in the use of deadly force is whether the officer or another person present was in imminent danger of death or serious injury. Neither police officers nor the public were in the line of fire."

NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly insists officers "responded appropriately. You can second guess all of these things. Under the circumstances what the officers did was appropriate to the situation." And Mayor Bloomberg told reporters that the officers "probably acted in responsible ways” in shooting “somebody who must have been mentally deranged. Taking a knife and going after other people, particularly police officers, isn’t something that a sane person would do."


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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Retired Hero
posted August 13, 2012 10:01 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 22:01, 13 Aug 2012.

Quote:
The officers aimed for center of mass, as trained. Like I always tell people to shoot for self-defense. The man lunged at them and was three feet away. Anyone who thinks you can get a "leg shot" or shoot his right pinkie to make him drop the knife in those conditions is clueless.


I have to agree with Elodin on this one.
Also, as I said, knives are incredibly dangerous and there's little chance to protect yourself from it.

However, instead of filling this guy with lead, they could use a tazer on him, there are many non-lethal weapons that can disable such a criminal from comfortable distance.

Well, at least they tried to spray him first.
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Elodin
Elodin


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Free Thinker
posted August 13, 2012 10:12 PM

The average NY city cop is not armed with a taser. Police sergeants have one, but a sergeant had not arrived on the scene yet. The whole event unfolded in a span of 4 minutes.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted August 14, 2012 02:36 AM

You charge a cop with a knife, you get what's coming to you.

IMO.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 14, 2012 08:34 AM

The whole thing is ridiculous.

A cell phone video of the incident

Do you see the amount of cops actually on site, keeping off bystanders, while the guy with the SIX inches (not 11) long knife is retreating and suddenly going down?

Now think about this one: SUPPOSEDLY the armed man was THREE FEET away when the cops fired - TWELVE shots. Only 7 of those hit the man at all and only 3 of them in the chest - dead center).

Does that sound like cold-blooded guys being in command of the situation?

It sounds like amateurs botching a job. Cops should be trained to disarm a man with a melee weapon. Additionally this was supposed to be a STONED man which would mean that he'd react somewhat sloooooower than normal. Two cops with batons and pepper spray should have been more than enough to resolve the situation without making it a slugfest - not to mention the additional half dozen cops on site being busy with keeping the bystanders back.

From what I saw and read my 76 year old mum would have done a better job with an umbrella and a can of pepper spray - and that is already considering that the cops supposedly used pepper spray 6 times: if you look at their score shooting the guy from supposedly 3 feet distance, you can imagine that they probably pepper-sprayed the letter-boxrs and lamp posts, if anything, but not their intended target.

I mean, seriously, people: what good are cops when a whole bunch of them isn't even able to disarm a 51 year old stoned idiot with a kitchen knife, without firing 12 shots into his general direction?

If that proves anything, then only that there are fairly low standards when it comes to getting a job with the police in NYC. But that's probably a consequence of their payment.

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friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


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able to speed up time
posted August 14, 2012 08:59 AM

Quote:
Cops should be trained to disarm a man with a melee weapon


How do you envision this happening?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 14, 2012 09:02 AM

They have melee weapons as well and the numbers.

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friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


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able to speed up time
posted August 14, 2012 09:07 AM

no, specifically.  How would they take down the knifewielder without guns?

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angelito
angelito


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posted August 14, 2012 09:35 AM
Edited by angelito at 09:35, 14 Aug 2012.

If a police officer isn't able to hit a man's arm (the one helding the knife, could be dangerous for other people nearby when not hitting the target though) or his feet, while he is going BACKWARDS, (NOT attacking them!!) from a distance of 3 or 6 feet, he surely has no right to wear a police uniform.

Period.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted August 14, 2012 09:35 AM

Not that I'm defending the idiot but if half a dozen policemen can't take down a knife-wielder without guns, then they should definitely change profession immediately.

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