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| Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 20 ... 22 23 24 25 26 ... 30 40 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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friendofgunnar
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posted August 14, 2012 10:23 AM |
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zenofex as well, describe to me exactly how police officers take down a knife-wielding man without using guns.
lol at the "shooting the arm" scenario
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Salamandre
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posted August 14, 2012 10:25 AM |
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Quote:
no, specifically. How would they take down the knifewielder without guns?
Just asking: how are NY cops trained specifically? Because it seems to me aiming for mass center from 3-6 feet away is something me or anybody can do too. You may find it stupid but in EU all those dozen cops would be in jail now, and for a long time. As Zeno, I am not defending the idiot neither, but it looks like if you have a bad day and act stupidly in NY, in majority of cases you will end in a grave.
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friendofgunnar
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posted August 14, 2012 10:33 AM |
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Oh come on, somebody please describe to me how to take down a knife-wielder with no guns.
waiting....
doodedooo
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Salamandre
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posted August 14, 2012 10:38 AM |
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friendofgunnar
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posted August 14, 2012 10:42 AM |
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Excellent! So are you endorsing this then? If you were a police officer in that case you would willingly holster your pistol and move within striking range of the knifewielder?
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JollyJoker
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posted August 14, 2012 10:43 AM |
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They have their police batons - what are they supposed to be used for? Slamming them in the back of the knees of unsuspecting drunkards? They have a bigger range with those sticks than the guy with the knife. And they SHOULD BE trained to take such a guy out: coing at him from different angles.
Every 2 gang members could do it.
But a truckload full of cops can't.
Instead they manage to put 3 out of 12 bullets from a distance of allegedly 3 feet into the chest.
If you want to defend that kind of incompetence, you are welcome, but don't expect much company.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 14, 2012 10:45 AM |
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Quote:
Excellent! So are you endorsing this then? If you were a police officer in that case you would willingly holster your pistol and move within striking range of the knifewielder?
How many cops were there, did you say?
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friendofgunnar
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posted August 14, 2012 10:47 AM |
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and JJ too, you would also endorse putting your pistol away and closing with striking range of a knifewielder?
I just want to be absolutely clear about this. You would risk your own life...no wait, not even that, you would risk a 6 inch gouge in your body somewhere just to avoid hurting a hopped up knifewielder?
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Zenofex
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posted August 14, 2012 10:48 AM |
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Excellent! So are you endorsing this then? If you were a police officer in that case you would willingly holster your pistol and move within striking range of the knifewielder?
Red herring. Following the same logic, I guess you are saying that is you were a police officer backed by several colleagues against a single offender armed with a knife, you will shoot him.
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Salamandre
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posted August 14, 2012 10:48 AM |
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FoG, I think is about specific state laws. If in NY gunning down a knife attacker is permitted, they will go for it in first option because safer. As I said, in EU you will go in jail for unappropriated answer, therefore they have to train probably better for various situations.
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friendofgunnar
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posted August 14, 2012 10:54 AM |
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@Zeno
It's not a red herring at all, it's exactly what you're asking your police officers to do. You're asking them to risk their own life to preserve the life of a prancing druggee.
wait, talk about red herrings, how about this one: "If in NY gunning down a knife attacker is permitted". Are you forgetting the merry chase he led the police on through a densely populated public area all while continuing to ignore their commands to drop his weapon?
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Salamandre
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posted August 14, 2012 10:58 AM |
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I also think that police training should contain psychological approach of a threat. An attacker is creating aggressive situation, loud at him to put down the weapon will mostly not help but increase his stress.
I mean, come on, do you find they are properly trained? This behavior is unbelievable.
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angelito
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posted August 14, 2012 11:05 AM |
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Quote:
Oh come on, somebody please describe to me how to take down a knife-wielder with no guns.
waiting....
doodedooo
Would you tell me what kind of training policemen in the USA get? None? A butcher closes his business and turns out to be a policeman the next day just by wearing a uniform?
Incredible...I wonder how the US has won any war til today if they are that limited in their actions...
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Zenofex
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posted August 14, 2012 11:06 AM |
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So what are the policemen supposed to do actually? Gun down every offender? Isn't the court's job to decide the guy's guilt and sentence him to whatever he deserves? He has to be alive to be charged with anything though.
Look, I don't know how it it is in the US but this topic surprises me way too often - not only because of the stories in it but also because of the reactions of the local Americans. You seem to think that shooting people is justified in way too many situations, including when we're talking about a single knife-armed offender against multiple policemen. Tell me - how is the police in the US trained and is it trained at all? Because if this situation describes the regular US policeman's effectiveness, I starting to understand Elodin and his kin's paranoia.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 14, 2012 11:21 AM |
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Also, as a policeman you are SUPPOSED to live with a certain kind of danger. Is the police really supposed to resolve every situation by gunning down people, just because they might feel there was a a personal threat and the possibility of maybe being wounded?
With that logic, if an armed person flees into a house - something where he might lurk and attack from a hideout -, policemen couldn't follow that person, but instead would bring the house down.
I mean, seriously, what is the JOB DESCRIPTION of a cop? Getting both palms greased by turning a blind eye on everything, and prancing around waving a gun the rest of the time?
12 shots. Incredible.
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Doomforge
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posted August 14, 2012 12:51 PM |
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Well, as I said, the risk of death against knife is huge. Yes they can use the baton, but they are risking a unlucky stab (and a probable death). Do my marker test if you really wish to see how ridiculously easy it is to get wounded by a knife (and marker is what, 3 inch?) Baton is a weapon to give the officer an edge over an UNARMED man.
Of course I don't support trigger-happy officers. That's unacceptable.
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Minion
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posted August 14, 2012 12:57 PM |
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@DF You can shoot elbow or leg and I assure he will not stab you. They emptied 12 bullets in him.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 14, 2012 12:58 PM |
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I would agree, if there has been ONE cop.
However, there was a whole PACK of them.
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Doomforge
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posted August 14, 2012 01:02 PM |
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@DF You can shoot elbow or leg and I assure he will not stab you. They emptied 12 bullets in him.
I agree that 12 bullets is a joke, but hitting a moving target in an elbow with a pistol? I agree with Elodin here: it's not really something you should depend on when your life is at stake. (it's among the reasons I dislike firearms in general : too much skill required to NOT kill).
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Elodin
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posted August 14, 2012 06:27 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 18:50, 14 Aug 2012.
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Do you see the amount of cops actually on site, keeping off bystanders, while the guy with the SIX inches (not 11) long knife is retreating and suddenly going down?
All the reports I've seen have said 10-11 inch knife. Produce the link that says 6 inches. But six inches is a deadly weapon nonetheless.
Here is an actual picture of the knife by the way.
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Now think about this one: SUPPOSEDLY the armed man was THREE FEET away when the cops fired - TWELVE shots. Only 7 of those hit the man at all and only 3 of them in the chest - dead center).
The shots were fired off very rapidly when the man lunged at the cops. The officers were in fear of their lives, not counting bullets. They fired rapidly, and as many times as they thought necessary to save their lives. Sure, they did not hit exactly where they wanted with every shot, as that is hard to do with a pistol under those conditions. Now, if they had been armed with shotguns with 00 buckshot the tale would have been different. 
Oh, the scumbag's arms could very well have been in front of his chest so the shots that hit his arms were probably "on target."
Oh, both officers were very veteran officers who had never fire their weapons on duty before.
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It sounds like amateurs botching a job. Cops should be trained to disarm a man with a melee weapon. Additionally this was supposed to be a STONED man which would mean that he'd react somewhat sloooooower than normal. Two cops with batons and pepper spray should have been more than enough to resolve the situation without making it a slugfest - not to mention the additional half dozen cops on site being busy with keeping the bystanders back.
Nonsense. The officers behaved in a professional manner, you are just anti-cop apparently. Or anti-US-cop?
All of your comments show how utterly clueless you are about such a situation. They used pepper spray 6 times. Like I've said before, pepper spay does not necessarily affect lunatics or druggies. Pepper spray sucks for defense when compared to a gun.
Maybe next time you'll be there and you can whip out a baton and disarm somebody who is holding an 11 inch knife as he lunges at you. But I think you'd get carved up really so I hope you are never put in that situation.
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If that proves anything, then only that there are fairly low standards when it comes to getting a job with the police in NYC. But that's probably a consequence of their payment.
Again, your comments show you to be clueless about such matters. I doubt you've ever even been in a fist fight much less faced off against some drug freak who is unaffected by pepper spray and who is lunging at you with an 11 inch knife.
People who think the cops should have risked their lives to try to disarm him with a baton when he lunged at them are just completely clueless about real world life and death confrontations.
And certainly if the cops had shot the man in the arm before he attacked them you'd be screaming police brutality. Cops can't win in your world.
The man holding the knife is the one to blame for his death. No one else.
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