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| Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 20 30 ... 33 34 35 36 37 ... 40 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted January 07, 2013 07:25 AM |
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Quote:
She's a pretty good shot as 5 of the 6 bullets hit him in the head or neck.
**** yeah. I'd hit it.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Tsar-Ivor
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Scourge of God
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posted January 07, 2013 09:35 AM |
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He's said to be o.k? Dafuq?
If you get shot 5 times including the face and neck, you're not ok, nor are you going to be OK, you also don't walk out of the house and try to bloody flee.
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Ghost
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Therefore I am
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posted January 07, 2013 05:57 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 18:05, 07 Jan 2013.
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A secure network connection eTrace working with the Finnish police to search for weapons in history, and to carry out analyzes without the U.S. authorities assistance.
Elodin or Gnomes experimented with a shotgun in Texas. Now also in Finland can be manufactured in the United States to follow the journey of arms.
Electronic system is recorded in the tens of millions of weapons for more than 20 years.
The system can be used to trace the criminal investigation emerged in the origin of illicit weapons when the weapon is manufactured in the USA and sold through it.
Manufacturer of data in addition to the system can not figure out the arms registered retailers in the United States, as well as licensed country exports.
The National Bureau of the International Department of Criminal Inspector Mr. Hammer says that the register is particularly useful for tracing the illicit arms trade.
- Now we can better monitor the weapons come from the same places. Europe has a lot of legitimate arms deals, which are sold under the counter weapons at the same time. Identification data also allow us to determine whether the weapons modified later series of firearm additional parts.
Hammer says that negotiations with the U.S. for access to arms register was started last spring. Criminal inspector praises that Finland and the United States ultimately reached an agreement to personal data relating to the articles in respect of which Finland is a special care.
- Maybe it's fear was more on our side. Transfer of personal data has now been excluded, that is, they are not released automatically. Registers for the preliminary information we have, but the personal information continues to make an official request.
The register does not prevent the police at all by anyone, but gun data can check just a few of the Central Criminal Police expert. Weapons inspections have been made so far about 100-150 units per year.
According to the 2010 U.S. arms manufacturers exported legally in the country for more than 240 000 firearms. In the period 1986-2010 the world was sold legally in turn, almost 100 million American-built weapons. Part of these weapons are still traded.
Also a number of guns sold in Finland, especially handguns, are of U.S. origin or they have traveled through the United States.
National Bureau signed an agreement with the use of an information system on Friday, 04.01.2013.
ETrace the system administrator of the U.S. Department of Justice Office ATF (The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives), which monitors alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives.
ATF has entered into a similar agreement with 32 other countries. It does not charge a fee system for use by foreign authorities.
GT
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Doomforge
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posted January 07, 2013 07:56 PM |
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The good guy (gal, in this case) with the gun wins again, thanks to her trusty pistol. She defended herself and her kids from a home invader. 
Maybe you'll also start posting about people who tried pistol in self defense, failed and got killed?
Or perhaps cases of people who defended themselves with a pencil to the eye? Does that mean we should carry pencils around and feel safe, or something?
Because what you are doing is childish to the extreme here.
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Elodin
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posted January 08, 2013 04:22 PM |
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No, what is childish is to continue to claim that possessing a gun does not make you any safer. The statistics and individual instances I present show that position to be utterly laughable. 
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Revelation
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted January 08, 2013 04:35 PM |
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No, what is childish is to continue to claim that possessing a gun does not make you any safer. The statistics and individual instances I present show that position to be utterly laughable.
Maybe I would be safer with a gun. But if my murderous neighbour who hates-me-and-wants-to-kill-me-because-he-thinks-I-pooped-on-his-lawn owns a gun... I would not be safer then. A gun is only going to help if you get the chance to prepare yourself.
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Seraphim
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Knowledge Reaper
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posted January 08, 2013 04:42 PM |
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I agree with elodin.
Just take a peek at South america people. Lots of deaths and people are not allowed to posses guns as freely in the US.
Gun violence is, imo, more an indocator of social unrest and criminality than the ammounts of guns present.
However, I do not like the fact that semi automatic rifles are allowed in the US. Why cant people settly with shotguns or revolvers?
Is a snowing colt rifle or a semiautomatic pistol that much more efficient at shooting baddies?
A revolver does that same job and has a tedious reload. It still does the job but defends you from somebody.
I generally like the idea of gun ownership, but not to mental patients, ex convicts, or with people who have comited crime in the past.
People dont change, one criminal charge should be enough to prevent them from having a gun.
Also, people should be charged with murder if they left the gun in the open and somebody else got killed with his/her stolen gun.
People treat guns like snow in the US. Either keep it safe and away from burgalrs, kids or dont use one at all.
Also, why not use some better alternatives like barred windows, doors, electric fences, peper spray sprinkler system...
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 08, 2013 07:51 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:06, 08 Jan 2013.
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Quote:
No, what is childish is to continue to claim that possessing a gun does not make you any safer. The statistics and individual instances I present show that position to be utterly laughable.
Hasn't this been already shared once:
You're like a chess player trying to checkmate with his captured pieces.
The environment itself becomes so much more dangerous, it is pointless to single out one or two incidents that the guns actually did work. Those are also very questionable incidents too btw: Some 20 year-old burglar try to gets in, home owner warns him with a gun but he decides to keep trying to break in at gun point anyway and gets shots in the head? Who does that? Home owner probably panicked and immediately shot him, told the cops he had warned him to save his own skin.
Besides, snow happens in life, people's wives cheat on them, people get screwed by their best friends over money, people's bosses act rude on the day their mother died, people lose it, people go berserk, even sane ones are not a 100 percent rational creatures. Having a gun around (and it's not just a tool, anybody who hold a gun knows the delusional feeling of power it imposes) in times such as these can change the outcome dramatically.
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Seraphim
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Knowledge Reaper
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posted January 08, 2013 08:18 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 20:23, 08 Jan 2013.
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@artu
Please consider south america.
No gun rights whatsoever, lots of crime, lots of homicides and lots of mass graves(At least in mexico)
The amounts of guns or the possesion of guns is not an indicator of homicides.
Also, the UK statistics are skewed.
Firstly, the UK or any other state compared with the US is bound to produce different results.
How about we compare Kinshasa with a US state with 9 million inhabitants...
Also,afaik, london is one of the most violent and dangerous places to be in the so called EU zone. There may not be gun attacks, but getting stabbed is imo worse then getting shot.
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Doomforge
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posted January 08, 2013 08:19 PM |
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No, what is childish is to continue to claim that possessing a gun does not make you any safer. The statistics and individual instances I present show that position to be utterly laughable.
You're posting exactly what? Some stories once or twice a year how a guy or gal defends himself with a pistol? Is it what exactly.. proof? Laughable. You could as well post about people that defend themselves with pencils and try to convice everyone around how pencils are good for self-defense. I'm sure you would find a lot of instances to fuel up your theories, since it certainly happens once in a while.
Since artu beat me to posting the real statistics, I'll leave it with that.
@Seraphim
what proof you have that guns-for-all would help there? In places where narcotic gangs rule, you don't exactly help the situation by pouring more guns onto the highly catastrophic situation. This is a government-level problem, not something that goes away once you arm a civilian or five.
Quote:
Also, the UK statistics are skewed. Firstly, the UK is a completely different pot compared the US. Comparing the UK and the US is not logical.
It's certainly not convenient for gun lovers, but yes, it's perfectly logical.
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xerox
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posted January 08, 2013 08:24 PM |
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Just compare Switzerland to the US. Switzerland has liberal gun laws, yet the swiss statistics are nowhere near as grim as the american statistics. Why's that?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
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- John Stuart Mill
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 08, 2013 08:25 PM |
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I'm not an expert on South America but as far as I know cartels are armed heavily. Just because those guns are illegal ones doesn't help your point of view. It would only help if there were no guns but still mass graves, however in this case we have illegal guns and mass graves.
I'll look into UK stuff more carefully.
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Doomforge
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posted January 08, 2013 08:28 PM |
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Just compare Switzerland to the US. Switzerland has liberal gun laws, yet the swiss statistics are nowhere near as grim as the american statistics. Why's that?
Mentality, lack of ethic conflicts, not nearly as much corruption, gangs aren't running districts like in some US cities.
Guns don't do jack **** to help the situation. If the neighborhood is a mess, your pistol may only lure you into a sense of false security. Only to be choked from behind and robbed, or something.
You don't fix broken environments by pouring guns or taking them away. Elodin seems to think that the world gets magically safer once you have a shotgun in your cabinet. Oh well - not really, no.
Picking a story of how one guy kills another in self defense with a pistol and carrying it as some sort of argument is childish, because... honestly, how many people out there (armed) have been robbed or killed anyway? a lot. What is posting a single instance of defense going to prove? That you may get lucky? you may as well not get lucky.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 08, 2013 08:34 PM |
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Quote:
Switzerland has liberal gun laws
Are the people in the habit of owning a gun? It may be free in theory but is it traditional to arm yourself? How many of the people actually own and carry a gun? I'm truly asking.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted January 08, 2013 08:37 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 20:44, 08 Jan 2013.
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Quote:
@Seraphim
In places where narcotic gangs rule, you don't exactly help the situation by pouring more guns onto the highly catastrophic situation. This is a government-level problem, not something that goes away once you arm a civilian or five.
what proof you have that guns-for-all would help there?
I never said that. My response was to show that gun control =/= less homicide. Guns for everybody in South America would not solve anything but it could maybe provide some sort "Balance". It would not be so easy to go into a city and pillage it if every citizen is armed.
At least, the police forces are impotent there. Why not, at least, give the average dude a gun to protect himself or kill a gang member?
Again, would not solve anything but that was not my point.
Quote:
Also, the UK statistics are skewed. Firstly, the UK is a completely different pot compared the US. Comparing the UK and the US is not logical.
It's certainly not convenient for gun lovers, but yes, it's perfectly logical.
Lets compare the Vatican with Russia then. Would that be logical?
The size, the demographics, the culture, the history of one place make the people.
Surely, you are bound to find alot of nazis in countries with alot of ethnicity. Again, for a fair comparison, we would need two USAs to make a valid comparison. Sounds stupid, is imo the fairer case.
Quote:
I'm not an expert on South America but as far as I know cartels are armed heavily. Just because those guns are illegal ones doesn't help your point of view. It would only help if there were no guns but still mass graves, however in this case we have illegal guns and mass graves.
Well. Gun control cant prevent illegal gun usage, cant prevent gun maniacs from commiting masacres and it cant prevent crime.
It would stop the occasianal school masacre in the US but thats it.
The only thing, in the case of south america, is function as a barrier for the average joe to get a gun.
Point is, holding or using a gun seems to be to much of a responsibility for a holder. They are ineffective vs a criminal with clear intentions. Th
Can a healthy human be able to reason and make the right decision in the right time?
However, there is too much crime to really answer that.
How about somebody produces suits that protect one from guns?
I would like to ask, why are guns so available and why is gun armor unavailable?
An armored car costs $100.000 min. Why are guns so cheap, and protection from it so expensive?
I am not a gun fan, but they are better than nothing or waiting for the police.
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted January 08, 2013 08:39 PM |
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Elodin and Artu are equally wrong in that they are being intellectually lazy and attempting to draw a (significant) causation between gun ownership or the lack thereof and violent crime. The countries in the Europe with the lowest violent crime are countries where you are allowed to own a gun. That doesn't strongly imply that gun ownership is the reason, and that's because if you dig up the gun ownership figures, you'll see that they're much lower than the gun ownership in the US, and that the vast proportion of them are owned for sporting and hunting purposes. While marksmanship is popular for sport & hunting in the US as well (more than almost anywhere), it's also very common to own a gun for security purposes, so when you combine the two you end up with an extremely high gun ownership.
There is a profound difference between having gun ownership and having a gun culture. Switzerland does not have a gun culture. It simply has guns. The United States - or rather the entire W. Hemisphere (even Canada, though the lowest on the 2 continents, is relatively higher) - is a homicidal culture. Honest academics that aren't touting a shortsighted political agenda will tell you that there's an amalgamation of political and historical factors that explain why US violent crime is where it is. Many of them are still in support of gun control to varying degrees, but they certainly don't make the kind of 1960s-esque outdated modernist claims that you're finding in this thread. They paint a much more complicated and interesting picture.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 08, 2013 08:44 PM |
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Well. Gun control cant prevent illegal gun usage
That is a matter of how efficient the law is implemented and subject of another debate. However, I dont think South America is a good example because some of those cartels are said to be more in power than actual governments.
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xerox
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posted January 08, 2013 08:47 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 20:50, 08 Jan 2013.
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Artu: Because Switzerland lacks a standing army, every single Swizz home owns a gun.
I think blizzardboy hit the nail on this with his post 
That being said, gun control is an exceedingly hard liberal dilemma.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 08, 2013 08:50 PM |
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There is a profound difference between having gun ownership and having a gun culture
I have no objection to that, good point. As you can see, when Xerox said they have free gun laws, my first question was about the culture and tradition. I may have made a one dimensional impression while objecting to Elodin's logic.
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Doomforge
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posted January 08, 2013 08:56 PM |
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I never said that. My response was to show that gun control =/= less homicide. Guns for everybody in South America would not solve anything but it could maybe provide some sort "Balance". It would not be so easy to go into a city and pillage it if every citizen is armed.
Regular people just can't fend off gangs, that's crazy. You need a government with full dedication, a strong police force, and lifting the ban on drugs (which isn't going to happen) to get rid of gangs.
I see what your point is, and yes, I fully agree. What I disagree with is Elodin's (and some other guys here, probably) assumption that an unsafe country gets safer when you pour down guns to citizens.
If anything, it gets less stable, not less unsafe.
Look at US. Does it help - in the worst places, i.e. slums - that citizens can buy guns? nope. They still kill each other all too well, you're just giving them more tools.
As for the defense value - I think it's plain obvious that, gun or not, whomever makes a first move on you and/or surprises you has an advantage the gun cannot elevate. You can hold a minigun if you wish - it's enough if someone presses a bent metal at your back and demands money. You'll quickly give it to him without any chance of retaliating.
And what are the odds the common crime will NOT look like that? Are criminals idiots? Some of them, yeah, but what are the odds they can't think straight? Why do so many people here imagine how the criminals are charging at them, head-on, distinguishable from a mile away, unarmed, alone and just waiting for you to blow their brains out? they can think, you know. Armed neighborhood? they'll just use surprise more. And get a lot more paranoid, willing to kill you instantly if something goes not exactly according to their plan. because in such a situation, it's either him, or you. And if things go south, you get popped, because if you don't, you'll pop him.
Pretty simple, huh?
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At least, the police forces are impotent there. Why not, at least, give the average dude a gun to protect himself or kill a gang member?
Because of the above. People think that guns make them... actually capable of standing their ground. They don't. It's false. It may just lure people into a sense of safety which is not there in the first place, to go around to unsafe places "because my gun will protect me". Yeah. Sure it will.
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Lets compare the Vatican with Russia then. Would that be logical?
The size, the demographics, the culture, the history of one place make the people.
Surely, you are bound to find alot of nazis in countries with alot of ethnicity. Again, for a fair comparison, we would need two USAs to make a valid comparison. Sounds stupid, is imo the fairer case.
And what's wrong with the act of comparison? Is comparison meaning you need to find an exact match, or something? Why can't I compare US to UK? Because they are different? well, aren't differences exactly the reason why you should compare them and draw some conclusions instead of treating it like a taboo or something? I see absolutely nothing illogical in comparing two countries.
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An armored car costs $100.000 min. Why are guns so cheap, and protection from it so expensive?
Cause it's easier to destroy than to build.
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I am not a gun fan, but they are better than nothing or waiting for the police.
What are the odds of the situation actually allowing you to use them? Isn't it better to spend that money on preventing that from happening? Of course if you have unlimited funds you may as well buy a gun, or a personal bodyguard, but I'm being pragmatic here.
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