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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime
Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime This thread is 55 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 ... 42 43 44 45 46 ... 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted April 19, 2013 11:49 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 11:50, 19 Apr 2013.

Good to hear. The reason why I never actually said I'm against guns is that ... I'm not. What I'm opposed to is the idea of guns being the best thing for home defense. I consider them simply overrated for the reasons I already posted: they work under certain circumstances ONLY, and the cash spent on them could easily fund a better alarm system. It's 21-st age, we really don't need to keep boomsticks in our drawers when the technology permits highly reliable alarm systems that are practically impossible to get around for the average "dumb mugger". Much harder than a gun, at last.

Of course, with limitless funds you can simply get both, but.. hey, I'm a Pole - cost efficiency is extremely important for a chap who can't afford a piece of bent metal, yet alone a boomstick
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
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Scourge of God
posted April 19, 2013 04:31 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 17:05, 19 Apr 2013.

Quote:
Please show me where did I say: ban guns in America?


It was an assumption stemming from the fact that you use your country's no/low gun crime rates to counter Elodin's remarks about how guns deter crimes. From this I assumed that you considered a country without guns to be "better", to which I replied that each country is different, and applying one country's theorem to another is ludicrous because every country is different from one another.

Quote:
Very naive.
The countries and the people are roughly the same. The mentality differs, but it can change drastically over as much as a generation.

50 years ago, people considered gays mentally ill.
100 years ago, iirc, there were buses for "colored" people.
300 years ago, there were slaves picking cotton at your country.


It can change with a single world arching power in force slowly indoctrinating the population to the merits of the state, maybe, I don't deny that. But is the world like that? Has every country got the same merits as each other? NO! Not even the bloody people in a country do not all share the same culture.

I repeat each country is different, period. You cannot apply one country's theorem to another, period.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted April 19, 2013 05:42 PM

Quote:

Wow, you really need statistics as "proof" for something as dead-obvious as "if you point a gun at someone, he'll flee or die" ?



Evidently I do because anti-gun folks throughout the thread have been saying,"Nuh uh, you are not, are not, are not safer with at gun!!!!" even though statistics show their position to be flatout wrong.

Quote:

Your arguments completely ignore some very simple facts that don't even need statistics to be aware of:

1. In a gun-totting country, everyone expects a gun



If I have and gun and the criminal does not I am safer.  If the criminal has a gun and I have a gun I am safer. If the criminal has a gun and I don't have a gun I am dead if he wants me dead. Simple.

Quote:

2. Since your country swims in guns, you can expect the criminals to adapt



Huh? Only criminals can adept? Further I have the advantage since I know my home and the intruder does not. My trusty shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot will stop the intruder.

Quote:

3. The crime rate is still ridiculously high, so your "deterrent" doesn't really work



Idiotic liberal morons in power make sure that criminals don't serve very long behind bars often and they are let back on the street to pillage again.

But the facts are that criminals are much less likely to break into an occupied American home than an occupied European home because of the much greater odds of an American being armed. Yep, there is a deterrent that comes with gun ownership.


Quote:

It is axiomatic in the United States that burglars avoid occupied homes. As an introductory criminology textbook explains, "Burglars do not want contact with occupants; they depend on stealth for success." [FN8] Only thirteen percent of U.S. residential burglaries are attempted against occupied homes. [FN9] But this happy fact of life, so taken for granted in the United States, is not universal.

The overall Canadian burglary rate is higher than the American one, and a Canadian burglary is four times more likely to take place when the victims are home. [FN10]
....

A 1982 British survey found fifty-nine percent of attempted burglaries involved an occupied home.



Quote:

4. You can have a minigun with you, doesn't matter. If you're surprised, you'll do whatever the mugger demands if you even if he simply places a piece of bent metal at your back.



Obviously if an invisible space alien from Mubazowiskini sneaks up on me, yeah, he has an advantage. But If I am armed I have a greater chance of survival than if I am not armed.

Yes, I can't shoot anyone if I am asleep, in a coma, passed out drunk, or in stasis. But otherwise my trusty shotgun will be a great weapon for defense.

Quote:

Counter that, mr. I-quote-brain-dead-statistics-and-claim-proof.



I did, and now if you don't agree with me you must be brain dead!


Quote:

I see no point in arguing over and over that pointing a gun at someone unarmed in your house (or even armed, but taking him by surprise) means you can kill him.



Then you should be in favor of everyone being allowed to carry a gun because they are safer with a gun according to your own admission.

Quote:

But, how about answering for once, what are the odds of all the variables needed for your "heroic shotgun action" clicking together?
1. You have to be at the place that is robbed, or near your family if endangered.



Uh, obviously if I'm not home I can't defend my home with my shotgun. Well, my Terminator XIXZ can do that for me, but when I get home I switch him off because it is much more satisfying to blow intruders away myself.

Quote:

2. You have to be awake.



No I don't. I have trained myslef to sleep-shoot and I sleep while cuddling with my wife AND myshotgun. She has her own shotgun too. And our pet dog, Fifi has her own special canine shotgun collar mounted.

Quote:

3. You mustn't be surprised.



I can't be surprised. I have bionic eyes implanted i the back of my head. The bioeyes also see in infared. And I have taken to wearing wrist mounted handguns. The duster I wear also is covering a head mounted mini-shotgun that is pointed to the rear.

As you see, I have adapted to criminal arming themselves.

Quote:

4. You have to surprise the attacker or make a 50/50 coin toss of "who shoots faster" and win



I'm faster, no coin toss neede. As a former member of the greatest military in the world (America's miltary), a former law enforcement officer, and an avid shooter I can outgun any pervert that breaks into my home or stupidly attempts to mug me on the streets.

Quote:

5. The opponent must be alone or have cowardly mates who don't just kill you the second he drops



Actually, criminals tend not to be highly skilled with guns and the criminal will be in unfamiliar territory (my home.) My shtogun will also be far superior in close quarters to the handgun the pervert(s) is likely to be carrying. A shotgun with 00 buckshot is: point, shoot, see splatter, see pervert knocked back to the floor with massive bleeding. No fancy trick shots necessary.

And yeah, once that first shot is fired the pervert's "mates" will be fleeding for their lives in all likelihood. If not, there is more buckshot where that came from.

Quote:

So, how about we drop the truisms, stop quoting some bull like "if you shoot somebody, he may die" and pretend it helps the discussion?


How about we acknowledge that in the real world if you have a gun you are safer and if you don't have a gun you are at the mercy of someone who probably is not merciful to begin with. The home invader is there to do you harm, not to wish you well.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted April 19, 2013 06:04 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 18:09, 19 Apr 2013.

Guess you're quite a sheriff, Elodin... so confident. Wasn't there a catchphrase about that in some Westerns?

And thank you for confirming that you indeed have to be awake, sober, near your property, et cetera. Now you can kindly ask yourself, how stupid one must be to not wait until you are asleep, away, or whatever before making a move on you in a country where everyone has guns. Like I said before: if criminals in your country are moronic enough to charge head on in broad daylight - I fully support shotguns under every bed and in every fridge. Otherwise? na-ah. Against anyone with at least half of the brain functioning, they are as useful as a toothpick.

(and why the assumption that the criminal(s) aren't armed with shotguns, too? They can buy them in a store, after all - why to make your odds worse by equipping an inferior weapon when going to rob someone? @_@ Also, why the assumption that you kill one, reload, kill another, reload, kill the last while they stare at you and sing happy songs? what is this, counter-strike? besides, are they really that retarded in US to go alone AND unarmed to rob people?)

Even in Poorland, the criminals are smart. And they know how to team-work, surprise people and rob empty places. It really doesn't take much intellect - more than chimpanzee perhaps, but not much. So either US criminals are mostly zombies that charge across your garden screaming BRAINZ, or you're really using argumentum ad absurdum more than you should.
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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


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posted April 19, 2013 06:18 PM

Quote:
If the criminal has a gun and I don't have a gun I am dead if he wants me dead. Simple.

But the majority of criminals DON'T want you dead. Hell, they don't even want the raping. They want your TV, DVD player and XBox. If you don't have an XBox, then your computer or smart phone. Killing you will just make things messy and actually be detrimental to the whole "Getting away with it" aspect, since murders are investigatedfar more thoroughly. And no, that is not something that a criminal would not realize, it is rather common sense/ street knowledge, so the argument that criminals are too dumb to realize this doesn't really hold water.

Quote:
The home invader is there to do you harm, not to wish you well.

For this, see above. They want your stuff, not your life or health.

Also Elodin, the "Pointing a gun at your face" works both ways. Both criminals and victims tend to freeze or run when someone points a lethal weapon at them. So your statistic is really, "90% of criminals who were unarmed, lightly armed or had the drop gotten on them ran when a gun was pointed in their direction, which is the exact same rate of victims who were held up at gunpoint that immediately surrendered when a gun was pointed in their direction because the victim was lightly armed, unprepared, had the drop gotten on them or had a member of their family/ room mate taken hostage." Soooo... Not the strongest bit of evidence there. And yes I recognize that you are still MARGINALLY safer with a gun in these situations, but a large dog, alarm system or bear trap is more effective.
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


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posted April 19, 2013 06:19 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 18:20, 19 Apr 2013.

Quote:
Against anyone with at least half of the brain functioning,


They wouldn't have turned to crime if their intelligence were sound.
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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


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Duke of the Glade
posted April 19, 2013 06:24 PM
Edited by gnomes2169 at 18:25, 19 Apr 2013.

Quote:
Quote:
Against anyone with at least half of the brain functioning,


They wouldn't have turned to crime if their intelligence were sound.


Desperation =/= always equal stupidity. And low wisdom and the inability to realize long term consequences does not exclude cleverness in the short term and experience with these activities. Most criminals would either have advice or are clever enough to realize all of the obvious pitfalls and risks in a home invasion and take measures against them. *Shrug*
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted April 19, 2013 06:34 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 18:35, 19 Apr 2013.

Quote:

They wouldn't have turned to crime if their intelligence were sound.


Criminals are often sociopaths, which tend to have way higher intelligence than a common man.

So nope, try again.

This is also why I question Elodin's "arguments" - they make criminals look like brain dead zombies. Get a shotgun and shoot them, voila - all problems magically go away.
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


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posted April 19, 2013 06:37 PM

Quote:
which tend to have way higher intelligence than a common man.


According to whom?
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted April 19, 2013 06:43 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 18:44, 19 Apr 2013.

Okay, I might have used the wrong word - "intelligence" is misleading. However, being devoid of certain emotions/empathy gives a significant advantage in that kind of work.

While serial killers have an average IQ of 92 (not much to brag about), they were still ridiculously successful at what they did.

I did not mean "intelligence" understood in an academic way.
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


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posted April 19, 2013 07:12 PM

I know for a fact (at least with anti-social individuals that I've 'worked' with) that they are indeed more sensitive. Sensitive in the sense that they automatically pick up on and question the boundaries around them, like laws. Unfortunately it tends to be very unrefined, so you're often left with a hooligan who just wants to smash **** around them.
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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


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posted April 19, 2013 07:20 PM

Just gonna post this since it turned up in my mail box today.

The President on the results of the gun registry bill.

Quote:
-- The President's Remarks --

A few months ago, in response to too many tragedies -- including the shootings of a United States Congresswoman, Gabby Giffords, who's here today, and the murder of 20 innocent schoolchildren and their teachers -- this country took up the cause of protecting more of our people from gun violence.

Families that know unspeakable grief summoned the courage to petition their elected leaders -- not just to honor the memory of their children, but to protect the lives of all our children. And a few minutes ago, a minority in the United States Senate decided it wasn't worth it. They blocked common-sense gun reforms even while these families looked on from the Senate gallery.

By now, it's well known that 90 percent of the American people support universal background checks that make it harder for a dangerous person to buy a gun. We're talking about convicted felons, people convicted of domestic violence, people with a severe mental illness.  Ninety percent of Americans support that idea. Most Americans think that's already the law.

And a few minutes ago, 90 percent of Democrats in the Senate just voted for that idea. But it's not going to happen because 90 percent of Republicans in the Senate just voted against that idea.

A majority of senators voted "yes" to protecting more of our citizens with smarter background checks. But by this continuing distortion of Senate rules, a minority was able to block it from moving forward.

I'm going to speak plainly and honestly about what's happened here because the American people are trying to figure out how can something have 90 percent support and yet not happen. We had a Democrat and a Republican -– both gun owners, both fierce defenders of our Second Amendment, with "A" grades from the NRA -- come together and worked together to write a common-sense compromise on background checks. And I want to thank Joe Manchin and Pat Toomey for their courage in doing that. That was not easy given their traditional strong support for Second Amendment rights.

As they said, nobody could honestly claim that the package they put together infringed on our Second Amendment rights. All it did was extend the same background check rules that already apply to guns purchased from a dealer to guns purchased at gun shows or over the Internet. So 60 percent of guns are already purchased through a background check system; this would have covered a lot of the guns that are currently outside that system.

Their legislation showed respect for gun owners, and it showed respect for the victims of gun violence. And Gabby Giffords, by the way, is both -- she's a gun owner and a victim of gun violence. She is a Westerner and a moderate. And she supports these background checks.

In fact, even the NRA used to support expanded background checks. The current leader of the NRA used to support these background checks. So while this compromise didn't contain everything I wanted or everything that these families wanted, it did represent progress. It represented moderation and common sense. That's why 90 percent of the American people supported it.

But instead of supporting this compromise, the gun lobby and its allies willfully lied about the bill. They claimed that it would create some sort of "big brother" gun registry, even though the bill did the opposite. This legislation, in fact, outlawed any registry. Plain and simple, right there in the text. But that didn't matter.

And unfortunately, this pattern of spreading untruths about this legislation served a purpose, because those lies upset an intense minority of gun owners, and that in turn intimidated a lot of senators. And I talked to several of these senators over the past few weeks, and they're all good people. I know all of them were shocked by tragedies like Newtown. And I also understand that they come from states that are strongly pro-gun. And I have consistently said that there are regional differences when it comes to guns, and that both sides have to listen to each other.  

But the fact is most of these senators could not offer any good reason why we wouldn't want to make it harder for criminals and those with severe mental illnesses to buy a gun. There were no coherent arguments as to why we wouldn't do this. It came down to politics -- the worry that that vocal minority of gun owners would come after them in future elections. They worried that the gun lobby would spend a lot of money and paint them as anti-Second Amendment.

And obviously, a lot of Republicans had that fear, but Democrats had that fear, too. And so they caved to the pressure, and they started looking for an excuse -- any excuse -- to vote "no."

One common argument I heard was that this legislation wouldn't prevent all future massacres. And that's true. As I said from the start, no single piece of legislation can stop every act of violence and evil. We learned that tragically just two days ago. But if action by Congress could have saved one person, one child, a few hundred, a few thousand -- if it could have prevented those people from losing their lives to gun violence in the future while preserving our Second Amendment rights, we had an obligation to try.

And this legislation met that test. And too many senators failed theirs.

I've heard some say that blocking this step would be a victory. And my question is, a victory for who? A victory for what? All that happened today was the preservation of the loophole that lets dangerous criminals buy guns without a background check. That didn't make our kids safer. Victory for not doing something that 90 percent of Americans, 80 percent of Republicans, the vast majority of your constituents wanted to get done? It begs the question, who are we here to represent?

I've heard folks say that having the families of victims lobby for this legislation was somehow misplaced. "A prop," somebody called them. "Emotional blackmail," some outlet said. Are they serious? Do we really think that thousands of families whose lives have been shattered by gun violence don't have a right to weigh in on this issue? Do we think their emotions, their loss is not relevant to this debate?

So all in all, this was a pretty shameful day for Washington.

But this effort is not over. I want to make it clear to the American people we can still bring about meaningful changes that reduce gun violence, so long as the American people don't give up on it. Even without Congress, my administration will keep doing everything it can to protect more of our communities. We're going to address the barriers that prevent states from participating in the existing background check system. We're going to give law enforcement more information about lost and stolen guns so it can do its job. We're going to help to put in place emergency plans to protect our children in their schools.

But we can do more if Congress gets its act together. And if this Congress refuses to listen to the American people and pass common-sense gun legislation, then the real impact is going to have to come from the voters.

To all the people who supported this legislation -- law enforcement and responsible gun owners, Democrats and Republicans, urban moms, rural hunters, whoever you are -- you need to let your representatives in Congress know that you are disappointed, and that if they don't act this time, you will remember come election time.

To the wide majority of NRA households who supported this legislation, you need to let your leadership and lobbyists in Washington know they didn't represent your views on this one.

The point is those who care deeply about preventing more and more gun violence will have to be as passionate, and as organized, and as vocal as those who blocked these common-sense steps to help keep our kids safe. Ultimately, you outnumber those who argued the other way. But they're better organized. They're better financed. They've been at it longer. And they make sure to stay focused on this one issue during election time. And that's the reason why you can have something that 90 percent of Americans support and you can't get it through the Senate or the House of Representatives.

So to change Washington, you, the American people, are going to have to sustain some passion about this. And when necessary, you've got to send the right people to Washington. And that requires strength, and it requires persistence.

And that's the one thing that these families should have inspired in all of us. I still don't know how they have been able to muster up the strength to do what they've doing over the last several weeks, last several months.

And I see this as just round one. When Newtown happened, I met with these families and I spoke to the community, and I said, something must be different right now. We're going to have to change. That's what the whole country said. Everybody talked about how we were going to change something to make sure this didn't happen again, just like everybody talked about how we needed to do something after Aurora. Everybody talked about we needed change something after Tucson.

And I'm assuming that the emotions that we've all felt since Newtown, the emotions that we've all felt since Tucson and Aurora and Chicago -- the pain we share with these families and families all across the country who've lost a loved one to gun violence -- I'm assuming that's not a temporary thing. I'm assuming our expressions of grief and our commitment to do something different to prevent these things from happening are not empty words.

I believe we're going to be able to get this done. Sooner or later, we are going to get this right. The memories of these children demand it. And so do the American people.

Thank you very much, everybody.

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Elodin
Elodin


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posted April 30, 2013 11:27 AM
Edited by Elodin at 11:28, 30 Apr 2013.

Wooohoooo!!!  Gun manufacturers are abandoning liberal states and moving their facilities to Texas. Certain liberal states dominated by far left politicians are becoming very gun unfriendly whereas everyone knows Texas will always support the right to bear arms. More jobs for Texas. Fewer jobs for the libbie states. Well, they love welfare anyways.

Clicky

Quote:

Arms manufacturers in at least two states with strict new gun laws are making good on their promise to move their operations -- along with thousands of jobs and millions in tax revenues  -- to locales they deem friendlier to the industry.

...... an unspecified new state, widely believed to be Texas.

“With a heavy heart but a clear mind, we have been forced to decide that our business can no longer survive in Connecticut – the former Constitution State,” PTR said in a statement earlier this month.

AR-15 manufacturer Stag Arms could soon follow suit, along with Colt's Manufacturing and Mossberg & Sons. The moves could cost the Nutmeg State 3,000 jobs as well as the estimated $1.75 billion in annual taxable revenues

...

"There is still a place for freedom that is very much alive and well," Perry said. "That place is called Texas."


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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted April 30, 2013 05:57 PM

And here I thought you love all of America, not just Texas...
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted April 30, 2013 06:00 PM

America is becoming smaller and smaller. One day will be only Elodin's house
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Seraphim
Seraphim


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posted April 30, 2013 06:46 PM

It is one thing to defend instruments meant to kill, it is another to cheer at the loss of jobs in these times.

Whose moral standards are higher elodin?

AR-15 are hardly guns only meant for killing house invaders, they are assault rifles.

They are too good in being not just for home defense. Its like having a tank and saying its just for defending your garden.

Whatever, I know that I cannot communicate with you, we live in separate realities after all.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted April 30, 2013 08:22 PM

Quote:
It is one thing to defend instruments meant to kill, it is another to cheer at the loss of jobs in these times.

Whose moral standards are higher elodin?



What job loss would that be?  There is a job TRANSFER, not a job loss. A transfer of jobs from a state where the companies are not welcome to a state where the companies are welcom. Texas recognizes that guns don't commit crimes. PEOPLE commit crimes. Extreme leftists seem to think guns are like the "one ring" in Lords of the Ring, guns corrupting everyone that has possession of a gun. Texans are much more rational and realize guns are tools that can be used for good, evil, or neutral purposes.

Quote:

And here I thought you love all of America, not just Texas...



Indeed I do, but I recognize the folly of liberalism and their hostility toward companies. If companies are not welcome in liberal states it is best that they go where they are welcom.

Quote:

America is becoming smaller and smaller. One day will be only Elodin's house



Oh no, I just recognize that some Americans are liberal sheeple being lead to the slaughter by extreme leftists who have them under their jackboots. But like Perry said, there is still a place that is free. Texas.
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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted May 06, 2013 01:42 PM
Edited by artu at 13:48, 06 May 2013.

I was just watching the news and some genius bought his 5 year-old a shotgun for his birthday. Kid ended up shooting his 2 year-old sister.
I was thinking like "what level of imbecile can you be to buy your 5 year-old a shotgun and give it to him loaded." Then the news kept on and I just learned that this is actually part of the industry. That's right, they have companies producing special-sized guns designed for kids. This is not about the right to protect yourself, this is not about freedom, this is about an industry creating its future customers and turning them into trigger-happy gun lovers. As the twig is bent, so is the tree inclined.

CNN

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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


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posted May 06, 2013 01:59 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 14:12, 06 May 2013.

^
Democracy. People are idiots.

Besides:

Quote:
"It was God's will. It was her time to go, I guess,"


I agree.

Also, the state trying to play god and keep people from doing stupid things is something only a hypocritical democracy could conceive.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted May 06, 2013 02:44 PM

Usually I ignore your posts but this time it's too obvious why.
Quote:

Democracy. People are idiots.
Also, the state trying to play god and keep people from doing stupid things is something only a hypocritical democracy could conceive.

Except that a few of those stupid things have direct consequences for their kids which are not idiots, but don't know better and are more or less dependent on their parents not messing it up for them. Which should be fairly obvious...

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