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| Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 ... 47 48 49 50 51 ... 55 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted July 15, 2013 04:52 PM |
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Who was Zimmerman? A guy with a loaded gun walking around and looking for trouble, I think there can't be doubt about. One died. No matter from which side you look at this, if he wasn't armed, the other would be alive today. Then and only then it comes the media circus.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted July 15, 2013 04:56 PM |
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I'm looking forward to seeing NBC and the like sued by Zimmerman. Should be interesting.
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ChaosHydra
Famous Hero
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posted July 15, 2013 10:06 PM |
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Yeah well, everyone has their own opinion on the case. Ofcourse, the African-American society is pissed off and want to lynch Zimmerman. I'm hoping this won't turn out like the LA riots in '92 
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fred79
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posted July 15, 2013 11:04 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Who was Zimmerman? A guy with a loaded gun walking around and looking for trouble, I think there can't be doubt about. One died. No matter from which side you look at this, if he wasn't armed, the other would be alive today. Then and only then it comes the media circus.
if zimmerman wouldn't have had a gun, he possibly could have been beat to death. not that i side with one or the other, i don't find this nonsense important at all.
that the media tried to make it about race... what's funny, what's REALLY funny, i think, i mean downright goddamn HILARIOUS, is that the media made it about race, and the only racists were treyvon and that black lady they put on the stand. media backfire, lol.
only problem is, now obama is going to put his nose in it, to seem the "hero", while at the same time giving arms to terrorists who JUST HAPPEN TO KILL KIDS.
now THAT'S worth a chuckle or two.  
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted July 15, 2013 11:28 PM |
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Not at all. Zimmerman was patrolling on the street looking for trouble. Despite the police telling him to stay in the car and not involve, he decided to go out and act on his own. He was protecting...the street?
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fred79
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posted July 15, 2013 11:36 PM |
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lol, i never said he wasn't an idiot, either.
from what i've read, his neighborhood had had a lot of break-ins recently, and being that he was part of "neighborhood watch", he felt it was his duty to do what he did. zimmerman thought he was being proactive, and forgetting that people don't like being followed, some more than most.
both sides were at fault for different reasons. but like i said, it doesn't matter, though. there are always more important things going on than media distraction. especially when "media distraction" is what's on t.v.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 15, 2013 11:53 PM |
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Edited by artu at 00:13, 16 Jul 2013.
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Is there any information on the range of the shot?
There must be some truth in all that high-tech CSI bullsnow they throw at us and I guess they can determine what range the victim was shot from. If it's a very close range shot, you can at least assume that Zimmerman pulled the gun and shot without aiming, instantly while he was being beaten. If not, why not just scare him off or shoot him in the leg or something. This cowboy mentality is really dumb.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted July 15, 2013 11:54 PM |
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fred79 said:
if zimmerman wouldn't have had a gun, he possibly could have been beat to death.
So the prey had to die so the hunter could live? That would have been totally fine according to nature if only Zimmerman had eaten the corpse...
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted July 16, 2013 12:06 AM |
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Fred, my point is that the fact of being armed changed Zimmerman's behavior from cautious to berserk. If he wasn't armed, he would have just tell police a suspicious guy is mucking around, then he would have stayed in his car, as anyone would do. But having a loaded gun gave him overconfidence, he followed the guy and killed him, while not being in anyone's property, nor caught stealing anything. The other MAY have been a criminal, but there is zero evidence in this case. It looks unbelievable to me he was freed from all charges, and that no one realize that is all related to guns laws as well.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 16, 2013 12:12 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Fred, my point is that the fact of being armed changed Zimmerman's behavior from cautious to berserk. If he wasn't armed, he would have just tell police a suspicious guy is mucking around, then he would have stayed in his car, as anyone would do. But having a loaded gun gave him overconfidence, he followed the guy and killed him, while not being in anyone's property, nor caught stealing anything. The other MAY have been a criminal, but there is zero evidence in this case. It looks unbelievable to me he was freed from all charges, and that no one realize that is all related to guns laws as well.
Perfect point. The existence of the gun determines the turn of events to begin with.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 16, 2013 12:20 AM |
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Salamandre said:
It looks unbelievable to me he was freed from all charges, and that no one realize that is all related to guns laws as well.
Even if it's likely that he did it, it wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the standard used for a murder trial.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 16, 2013 12:26 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 00:27, 16 Jul 2013.
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It was an unfortunate turn of events. We can play arm-chair quarterback all day long and it won't make a bit of difference. Nothing Zimmerman did was illegal, so saying "Well if he wouldn't have a gun..." or "If he had listened to the 911 dispatch..." is rather immaterial. Political considerations drove a ludicrous charge of 2nd degree murder, and it's no wonder it failed. You can't even blame the prosecutors. They were given a crap hand to play, and no matter how hard the judge tried to tip that hand in their favor, there's no way any sensible jury was returning a guilty verdict and nor (based on what I've read about the evidence) should they have. The prosecution's witnesses could have easily been defense witnesses, all the physical evidence supported a self-defense narrative... I'm frankly amazed it took the jurors a full 24 hours to reach a decision.
The worst part of the whole thing is the false narrative that was forced upon everyone by the media. The major news networks continue to pick at a race angle that isn't there, because race conflict makes money. Sad to say it, but it's the truth. As an example, any article by ABC News on the subject must say 100 times that Zimmerman is a "white Hispanic". One wonders if the same story would have made such a splash if Zimmerman's last name had been Hernandez.
Probably not, given the relatively low interest in the somewhat similar murder allegedly committed by the NFL player of like name.
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fred79
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posted July 16, 2013 12:28 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 02:15, 08 Aug 2013.
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Salamandre said:
Fred, my point is that the fact of being armed changed Zimmerman's behavior from cautious to berserk. If he wasn't armed, he would have just tell police a suspicious guy is mucking around, then he would have stayed in his car, as anyone would do. But having a loaded gun gave him overconfidence, he followed the guy and killed him, while not being in anyone's property, nor caught stealing anything. The other MAY have been a criminal, but there is zero evidence in this case. It looks unbelievable to me he was freed from all charges, and that no one realize that is all related to guns laws as well.
you may have a point there. guns do make people feel more safe, and feeling safer frees them up from some other "hinderances", like maybe inhibition.
the problem is, he was being attacked. like i said, both sides were wrong. you can't shake a finger at zimmerman without also shaking a finger at treyvon.
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and btw, sal, having a gun involved doesn't necessarily have to point to guns being bad. i don't understand why guns keep being demonized. they are only a tool. they work however the operator uses them.
by that argument, then cars should be banned also, they kill a lot of people. so do freak accidents, animals, and every other thing under the sun that isn't a padded cell.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 16, 2013 12:49 AM |
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Fred, the categorical difference between a gun and a car or knife had been talked about here like a million times. Now, having read the study Elodin linked, one thing is true, guns don't statistically mean more crime or death. But yours is quite a short-cut analogy to say the least. Some tools are not just tools, they DO affect your psychology, especially if they turn into a cultural norm. Reading this thread, I observe, for pro-gun Americans it is something quite casual and expected to just take out your gun and shoot in the slightest sense of a threat, while everybody else contemplates it as a last resort that should be avoided by any means possible.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 16, 2013 01:14 AM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 01:15, 16 Jul 2013.
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artu, maybe it's not about actual threats and danger, but it's purely cultural stuff which has nothing to do with people defending themselves?
I'm not from the USA and I'm not sure if this article is 100% reliable, but I think it's worth reading (warning - contains swearing). At least it makes a lot of sense and its statistics are true. Anyhow, it tries to explain this whole gun phenomenon pretty well.
Sorry if this link was posted here already, I couldn't find it.
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fred79
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posted July 16, 2013 01:33 AM |
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artu said:
Fred, the categorical difference between a gun and a car or knife had been talked about here like a million times. Now, having read the study Elodin linked, one thing is true, guns don't statistically mean more crime or death. But yours is quite a short-cut analogy to say the least. Some tools are not just tools, they DO affect your psychology, especially if they turn into a cultural norm. Reading this thread, I observe, for pro-gun Americans it is something quite casual and expected to just take out your gun and shoot in the slightest sense of a threat, while everybody else contemplates it as a last resort that should be avoided by any means possible.
if we're addressing things that have been pointed out a million times, may i remind you, that you still debate elodin over religion. and so do many others. so that point is neither here nor there. when one thing is attacked by so many people, expect to hear things repeated, because it obviously didn't sink in the first, second, third, or millionth time.
all of this anti-gun propaganda by people who don't actually OWN guns, or actually have RIGHTS to guns, is a little tiring. i can see someone resorting only to violence as a last resort, that is what we are legally required to do. you(and i'm not addressing just one person here) cannot speak about all americans wanting to cowboy up and shoot everything that breathes with the slightest provocation, and not expect someone to repeat the obvious.
if we were going to delve back into the guns/cars/etc = death argument, then it could be said, and reasonably, that cars' safety features could make someone drive more recklessly. or that having a rock in one's hand makes him more likely to throw it. or by having a knife in ones hand, makes him more likely to use it in an "evil" way.
again, repeating the obvious, because it didn't sink in the first, second, or millionth time.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 16, 2013 01:36 AM |
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Edited by artu at 01:49, 16 Jul 2013.
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Yes, definitely interesting article, especially the part on suicide. And this is a very good question, also asked by people here many times(with less detail of course):
"What's wrong with somebody wanting to protect his family?" Nothing. And people do use guns to fight off bad guys (although nobody has any idea how often that happens, because the subject is so politicized, it's impossible to find statistics that agree). But how many of those same people who are willing to shell out used-car money on "home defense" firearms don't, for instance, bother spending 20 bucks to keep a working fire extinguisher or carbon monoxide detector in the house? That Bushmaster AR-15 that mass shooters keep using? It costs a thousand bucks, and bullets are a dollar each (and you need to fire a few thousand of those to get proficient with the weapon). So why not spend those thousands on an alarm system and better locks so the bad guy never gets into the house in the first place?
In other words, are they obsessed with security, or are they obsessed with the idea of getting to shoot some mothersnowers? Are gun manufacturers selling guns they think people will actually use, or are they selling a fantasy? Are they, in fact, filling an emotional need?
@Fred.
No, actually the thing that refutes that analogy is cars or knives not being replacable while guns being so. You can not give up on cars. And I especially mentioned Pro-gun Americans, that is not all Americans but the ones who keep promoting the guns every chance they get. Btw, I have rights to guns if I get a license. (I just don't bother to). They are not totally illegal in the rest of the world.
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fred79
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posted July 16, 2013 01:51 AM |
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no doubt, firearms have a fascination to them. they are portrayed in almost every movie as "the coolest thing since sliced bread". i know, since i was a kid, i wanted them. now, i have them.
but, cigarettes were also portrayed as "cool". i quit smoking years ago. fashion is ALWAYS portrayed as "cool". i HATE fashion(call me a hipster, and i'll want to rip your ****ing lungs out).
there are many things that seem pre-programmed, indeed, everyone is selling something, so they try to convince you. that STILL doesn't demonize a tool.
and, what about scale? obama and many other anti-gun advocates have no problems with our military. they use guns, and much worse, all the time. should we just go back to using clubs? should we revert back to less-technological times?
is humanity so flawed that we cannot be trusted with OUR OWN TOOLS? where is the line drawn, here? and even if there WAS a line, why should there ever BE a line? is this the best we can do, people?!
(end of rant. )
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 16, 2013 01:58 AM |
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Edited by artu at 02:00, 16 Jul 2013.
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Military is something else for obvious reasons. It's core existence is based on being an assault force.
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why should there ever BE a line? is this the best we can do, people?!
So, in theory, you're okay with anyone having access to nerve gas or nuclear weapons or at least a rocket launcher?
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fred79
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posted July 16, 2013 02:03 AM |
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artu said:
Military is something else for obvious reasons. It's core existence is based on being an assault force.
Quote:
why should there ever BE a line? is this the best we can do, people?!
So, in theory, you're okay with anyone having access to nerve gas or nuclear weapons or at least a grenade launcher?
OF COURSE i am, artu. haven't you been paying any attention to ANYTHING i've ever been saying?
jk. what i mean, artu, is that humanity is supposedly better than animals. i don't see any difference, and from what differences i DO see, is that animals are better than people. self-awareness isn't everything. human kind should all know better. that they do not, is the reason we HAVE guns, and every other thing that people can complain about. 
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