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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Does shatter destruction work on spellcasting creatures ?
Thread: Does shatter destruction work on spellcasting creatures ? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 04, 2011 11:24 PM

Quote:
I haven't ever actually played Tribes of the East, just finishing Hammers of Fate

That explains a lot. If you try that build with orcs you will likely be thrashed. High damage is good but not all there is to orcs.
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CliffracerRIP
CliffracerRIP

Tavern Dweller
posted June 05, 2011 05:44 PM

Quote:

That explains a lot. If you try that build with orcs you will likely be thrashed. High damage is good but not all there is to orcs.


What else do orcs have but high damage and speed (provided by leadership)?
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 05, 2011 08:00 PM

You should better ask what they do not have by picking next to useless skills. Shatter summoning? Hardly necessary. Shatter destructive? Even less worth having. Shatter light? Situational. Shatter dark? Also situational but actually needed because lack of it can lead to a certain defeat. Cost-benefit ratio, you know? If you could find a decent duelist he'd show you in practice why this is a risky approach and highly unlikely to work.
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CliffracerRIP
CliffracerRIP

Tavern Dweller
posted June 06, 2011 07:13 PM

Quote:
You should better ask what they do not have by picking next to useless skills. Shatter summoning? Hardly necessary. Shatter destructive? Even less worth having. Shatter light? Situational. Shatter dark? Also situational but actually needed because lack of it can lead to a certain defeat. Cost-benefit ratio, you know? If you could find a decent duelist he'd show you in practice why this is a risky approach and highly unlikely to work.


Shatter summoning I'll agree is generally a waste of time.  That's not in the list, which is as follows.

Shatter Light
Shatter Darkness
Shatter Destruction
Luck
Leadership

Weakening the power of destructive powers is something that unless you are playing such a large game that empowered implosion isn't bye-bye best units I would happily trade any skill save luck or shatter darkness for.

Anyway you didn't answer my question, what does stronghold have to play by other than sheer combat power.  

I don't care about duel-mode Elvin, I am trying to come up with the best all-round hero assuming that I cannot cherry pick my opponant but can my skills (neither is true in a regular game).  How do I know my opponant isn't a warlock with ridiculously high spellpower, empowered spells and expert defense skill to keep his troops alive for longer?  No units, no victory.  

How do I know my opponant isn't a knight with expert light magic and 'master of everything' allowing him to cast all three buffing spells at expert level?  Then I might be simply overpowered by sheer weight of combat power from his hasted, divine strengthened and righteously mighty army. No combat superiority, no victory.  

How do I know my opponant isn't a necromancer with expert dark magic and 'master of everything' allowing him to use all three weakening spells at expert level? Then his undead army might simply tear down my pathetically weakened units. Again no combat superiority, no victory.  
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 06, 2011 07:29 PM

the rage points absorb a large portion of the damage, so even warlock spells may deal pathetic damage. sometimes it's hard to kill even 1 cyclop with deep freeze.

stronghold heroes have better attack and defense than everyone else.
so even if you buff your army, they might still be stronger.

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Oscarius
Oscarius


Famous Hero
*sleepy*
posted June 06, 2011 07:30 PM
Edited by Oscarius at 19:32, 06 Jun 2011.

For the last three questions: Tavern.

No, Stronghold doesn't got alot more than raw combat power, except shouts. But that sort of means that they have to focus on that instead of taking shatters "just in case".
Let's say that with your skills you face that scary warlock with 100 spellpower or what not. Then shatter destruction is nice, but you got atleast 6 levels wasted, if we're talking expert shatter. And you'll want expert, if you're taking it for dark and destruction, as that is the only level that affects lv5 spells.

It is the same in nearly every matchup, 3 or 6 precious levels will be wasted.

Shatter has less effect than normal mastery in spells, and has little to no effect in creeping. It is simply a counter against the things you really NEED to weaken, like frenzy and puppet. You got high attack and no real way of cleansing things, you don't want to let go of any creature control.
The rest of the spells...well, other races can handle mass light or a summoned fire bird. Just play like everyone else.

Also, Stronghold got a "hidden" counter vs. destruction in their blood rage, as that can absorb some damage.

The only reason you really choose shatter dark is because frenzy and puppet can utterly destroy a stronghold army. And nerfing slow is always fun.

Personally I like Logistics and Shatter Dark as my base "can't live without" skills. The top picks after that...probably leadership, enlightment and possibly defense.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 06, 2011 07:36 PM
Edited by Elvin at 19:37, 06 Jun 2011.

Shatter Light
Shatter Darkness
Shatter Destruction
Luck
Leadership

..is not combat superiority, it's a butchered build. If you throw in first and foremost logistics, then enlightenment, shout, attack or defense then we're talking. Taking more than 1 shatter is a not a just a waste, it's a sin. But no logistics, that's a multiplayer no-no which you will regret before long.

Regardless, experience says that no amount of spellpower can spell certain loss for you. Whether minor or major, orcs always have the advantage against dungeon - if not you are not you are doing something wrong.

As to how you know blahblah. The tavern might be a good start Harassing him with tavern heroes could also help. But other than that? Doesn't matter, you play by the odds. And the odds are that there IS no safe shatter choice vs haven, save maybe shatter light because stormwind is ALWAYS good. Likewise picking a shatter vs sylvan is next to suicide, stormwind being the exception. Only shatter dark is what you should always have if you know that the opponent has it and even then it might not save you. But if he has dark you won't lose to his master of everything curses, no, all he really needs is mass slow. Going for the full package can actually bring him closer to defeat unless his army is ridiculously tough. You cannot tell that by playing the AI or theorycrafting but it really is a bad idea, play an expert and you'll see.

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CliffracerRIP
CliffracerRIP

Tavern Dweller
posted June 06, 2011 07:48 PM

Quote:
the rage points absorb a large portion of the damage, so even warlock spells may deal pathetic damage. sometimes it's hard to kill even 1 cyclop with deep freeze.

stronghold heroes have better attack and defense than everyone else.
so even if you buff your army, they might still be stronger.


Not if they use mass-slow on your army and mass-haste on yours, all the time when they have expert leadership. That you have better attack and defense don't mean a thing if you do get to move.  

That stronghold creatures are so powerful is why you don't need defense or attack, the normal alternatives for shatter destruction or shatter light.  What you need is to prevent anyone from ever managing to equal or exceed your military might.  They can either do this by bolstering their units or weakening yours, either in stats or in NUMBERS!

It might eventually with enough rage points be possible to become nigh-invulrable to destructive magic magically and that's why it is comparably less valuable light or dark shatter.  But you don't a large portion of your army to be killed on turn 1, shifting the military balance in their favour on the raw combat power front.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 07, 2011 03:19 AM

Quote:
That stronghold creatures are so powerful is why you don't need defense or attack


on the contrary. attack and defense don't give absolute bonus. the higher your attack and defense stats already are, the higher will be the bonus from attack and defense skills. without counting that orcs have the most numerous army, so toughness and frenzy are very good.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 07, 2011 11:40 AM

Actually with some luck on initiative, chains and lucky hits dungeon can greatly weaken stronghold on the very first turn. Especially if the grims get to charge and blackies get a good position for firebreath.

If you lack defense against dungeon you are asking for it. Neither might nor magic alone will defeat the orcs but if they hit you first when range is down and combine spellcasting and melee on one threat at a time..
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