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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: The Male Genital Mutilation Bill....
Thread: The Male Genital Mutilation Bill.... [ This thread is 10 pages long: 1 (2) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ]
Fauch
Fauch


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Undefeatable Hero
posted May 27, 2011 05:55 PM

Quote:
Of course seeking to prevent parents form having their child circumcised is seeking to prevent them from being able to follow their religion.


that's the ground that those who are against that law will choose.

people in favour of it will choose the ground of children's rights.

I don't think the religion is the problem, the kid will be free to choose his religion and get circumcised when he is an adult. you don't really expect kids to choose freely their religion? they just follow mom and dad.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted May 27, 2011 06:00 PM

Fauch: it says clearly in the Bible in Genesis that on the 8th day, God saw what he had created, and he became jealous by Adam's member's prodigious girth and length.  And so God said, "Let there be shorter penises."  And He saw that it was good.

Really, man, I think the Bible gets to determine how long penises should be, not you.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted May 27, 2011 06:38 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Of course seeking to prevent parents form having their child circumcised is seeking to prevent them from being able to follow their religion.


that's the ground that those who are against that law will choose.

people in favour of it will choose the ground of children's rights.

I don't think the religion is the problem, the kid will be free to choose his religion and get circumcised when he is an adult. you don't really expect kids to choose freely their religion? they just follow mom and dad.


Jews are commanded in the Torrah to circumcise their male children.
Quote:

Lev 12:3  And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.



Saying a parent can't circumcise his child for religious reasons is religious bigotry and is an attempt to prevent him from following his religion. It is essentially saying "Screw you, Jew. I am your god and you will bow to my dictates." Of course a devout Jew will ensure that his child is circumcised regardless of what human being tries to prevent him from practicing his religion.

In the face of a tyrant commanding a religious person to act against his belief the devout person will say, "We must obey God rather than men."

Quote:

Fauch: it says clearly in the Bible in Genesis that on the 8th day, God saw what he had created, and he became jealous by Adam's member's prodigious girth and length.  And so God said, "Let there be shorter penises."  And He saw that it was good.



Nah, but Dawkinite teachings go something like, "Thou shalt hate all religions but atheism. Thou shalt seek to repress all such religions and seek to destroy their rights." And thus Dawkinites march out to do their god's bidding.

Oh, female circumcision is not commanded in Islam and only the mildest form is allowed.
Clicky

I believe in freedom of religion.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted May 27, 2011 06:46 PM

Is male circumcision "commanded" in Christianity?

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Elodin
Elodin


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posted May 27, 2011 06:57 PM
Edited by Elodin at 19:01, 27 May 2011.

Quote:
Is male circumcision "commanded" in Christianity?


No, but some Christians do believe they are supposed to. Circumcision was part of the Old Covenant ceremonial law, which is not carried over into the New Covenant.

Quote:

Act 15:5  But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Gal 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6  For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


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mvassilev
mvassilev


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HC SUPPORTER
posted May 27, 2011 07:01 PM

Quote:
Saying a parent can't circumcise his child for religious reasons is religious bigotry and is an attempt to prevent him from following his religion.
Saying a parent can't sacrifice his child's life for religious is religious bigotry too, I take it.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted May 27, 2011 07:04 PM

Quote:
No, but some Christians do believe they are supposed to. Circumcision was part of the Old Covenant ceremonial law, which is not carried over into the New Covenant.

If male circumcision is not commanded in Christianity (even though some Christians believe it to be so), what makes it any more legitimate a practice than female circumcision, which is not commanded in Islam (even though some Muslims believe it to be so)?

Understand, I don't have a strong opinion on male circumcision, even if I think female circumcision is completely wrong and should never be condoned.  I have a few reasons for that, though admittedly some of them are pretty weak.  I won't go into them unless someone is really interested.

I'm more interested in how you justify saying that male circumcision should be protected as a religious practice but female circumcision should not, when neither one of them are "commanded" by any religion.  What's the difference?  A bigger issue, Elodin, is where you draw the line between which religious practices should be protected and which shouldn't.  Supposing female circumcision WAS absolutely commanded in Islam - would you then think it should be a protected activity?  A lot of people think their religions command them to do a lot of crazy things.  

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
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Free Thinker
posted May 27, 2011 07:05 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Saying a parent can't circumcise his child for religious reasons is religious bigotry and is an attempt to prevent him from following his religion.
Saying a parent can't sacrifice his child's life for religious is religious bigotry too, I take it.


There is a difference between cutting off a little skin and killing a child. Although an interesting poll would be to see what percentage of people who favor abortions being legal for reasons other than the life of the mother is not in favor of allowing a parent to circumcise his child.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted May 27, 2011 07:20 PM

Quote:

I'm more interested in how you justify saying that male circumcision should be protected as a religious practice but female circumcision should not, when neither one of them are "commanded" by any religion.



When did I say female circumcision should not be protected?

Circumcision is commanded in Judaism and Islam. Circumcision is commanded by certain Christian denominations although the New Testament itself says circumcision is not required of Christians.

If a person believes it is a requirement of his religion he should be able to practice it.

Quote:

Supposing female circumcision WAS absolutely commanded in Islam - would you then think it should be a protected activity?  A lot of people think their religions command them to do a lot of crazy things.  


Yes, I believe in freedom of religion. I'm not sure what part of that you don't understand.

The radical anti-theism of many atheists leads them to do a lot of crazy things like to try to restrict the freedom of religion of others.
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Adrius
Adrius


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Stand and fight!
posted May 27, 2011 07:28 PM

I don't get it... where do you draw the line between ok and not ok Elodin?

I mean, anything can be a requirement for my religion.

Can I beat my child with a club?
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smithey
smithey


Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
posted May 27, 2011 07:37 PM

Yes you may, but only if your child is a baby seal


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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted May 27, 2011 08:04 PM

@Elodin
Quote:
When did I say female circumcision should not be protected?

True, you did not.  But your statement about female circumcision not being "commanded" sort of led me to believe that's where you were going.  Unless you were just throwing out a red herring?

Either way we're left with:

Quote:
If a person believes it is a requirement of his religion he should be able to practice it.


So you DO think that a Muslim woman should be allowed to slice off her daughter's clitoris and sew her vagina shut because the mother believes it's required of her religion?

This dilemma has come up in the US, by the way, so it's not just a thought experiment.  There have been doctors who have been asked to do this, and have declined to do so out of ethical concerns.  In fact, I have already broached this subject before..... here.

Anyway, taking that one step further just for the fun of it - what about someone who believes their religion requires human sacrifice?

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Fauch
Fauch


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posted May 27, 2011 08:24 PM
Edited by Fauch at 20:24, 27 May 2011.

Quote:
Lev 12:3  And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.


the flesh of who? the eighth day of what?

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FriendOfGunnar
FriendOfGunnar


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Supreme Hero
able to speed up time
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posted May 27, 2011 08:31 PM

Ban it.

The constitution is about protecting an individuals freedom of religion. It is *NOT* about foisting your religion on other people, even if they are your children.  If a person wants to cut their foreskin off they should do so when they are 14 and capable of making adult decisions.  The decision should not be forced on them when they are infants and can't refuse it.  Infant circumcision, male or female, is blatantly unethical.  

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MacMasterMC
MacMasterMC


Known Hero
Resurrected Loreweaver
posted May 27, 2011 09:15 PM

Then all it will take to prevent people from living their faiths will be that we simply ban it...

That was not why this country was founded.

If you cannot find a way to ban it aside from their beliefs, then you have just effectively signed death warrants on potentially any person who seeks to faithfully live their beliefs...

May our Lord have mercy on us all...
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Xerox
Xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 27, 2011 09:26 PM

This thread makes me sick.

How can people even consider doing something like that TO A CHILD who has no free will yet? That's sick.

No, parents should be punished for doing this and in my opinion, be punished for forcing religion on their children.
If a child wants to become religious, it should not be forced upon by his or her parents. It should be the childs very own choice, when he grows older.
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted May 27, 2011 09:45 PM
Edited by Elodin at 21:49, 27 May 2011.

For anyone who is not going to bother to read the articles in my post or watch the videos please don't respond to the post.

Quote:
Quote:
Lev 12:3  And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.


the flesh of who? the eighth day of what?


As I said above that quotation, "Jews are commanded in the Torrah to circumcise their male children." The eighth day after the boy is born.

@Corribus

Comparing female circumcision to child sacrifice is insulting to those whose cultures teach it is a loving thing for a mother to do for her daughter.

Quote:

Quote:

Circumcision is commanded in Judaism and Islam. Circumcision is commanded by certain Christian denominations although the New Testament itself says circumcision is not required of Christians.

   If a person believes it is a requirement of his religion he should be able to practice it.



So you DO think that a Muslim woman should be allowed to slice off her daughter's clitoris and sew her vagina shut because the mother believes it's required of her religion?



Actually, in what you quoted I was speaking of male circumcision. There is no female circumcision commanded in Judaism, Islam, or Christianity. As I said, Islam allows the lightest form of female circumcision but not the cutting off of the clitoris.

I am personally opposed to the form of female circumcision that involves cutting off the clitoris. But it is important to note that no mother says, "Hey, it is time to mutilate my daughter." Whatever they chose is in their opinion best for their daughter. They have a tradition or culture or a religious reason that has demanded it for thousands of years.

People should try to understand differences in culture, tradition, and religion, and realize that different people have different values.

Women who have been circumcised, regardless of method, usually don't think of them selves as mutilated or dysfunctional. Some of these women have written articles where they defend the practice.
Excerpt Please read the entire article, not  just what I quoted here.

Quote:

Though we do not condone the use of violence or intimidation we are also deeply affected by the inflammatory impact of language such as Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). We declare categorically that this language is offensive, demeaning and an assault against our identities as women, our prerogatives to uphold our cultural definitions of womanhood including determining for ourselves what bodily integrity means to us African women from ethnic groups that practice female and male initiation as parallel and mutually constitutive processes in our societies.

We declare that thus far the representation of female circumcision (FC) - its social and ideological meaning in terms of gender and female sexuality and impact, if any, on reproductive health and psychosexual wellbeing has been over the last thirty years dominated by a small but vocal number of African women that make up the Inter-African Committee (IAC) with the enormous backing, if not outright instigation of powerful western feminist organizations and media personalities. Through aggressive use of the media to portray African women as passive and powerless victims of barbaric, patriarchal African societies, their efforts have succeeded in influencing and tainting the objectivity of such institutions as WHO and UNICEF, among other international organizations that have taken the lead role in promulgating anti-FGM policies and legislation worldwide.

...
That FC was designed by men to control women’s sexuality is a western feminist myth constructed in a disturbing dismissal of African gender models of male and female complementarity and of our own creativity, power and agency as adult women in the social world. The assertion that FC violates the rights of children falters in the face of WHO’s promotion of routine neonatal male circumcision (MC) to protect against HIV infection in Southern African. Incidentally, circumcised African women also have some of the lowest rates of HIV infection among women in the world, so why the double standard?

We remind the world that all what is being said today about FC - barbaric, dangerous, reduces sexual pleasure, parochial - has also been said about male circumcision by its detractors, usually and conveniently, by those who are themselves uncircumcised. Just as racist remarks were made and aggressive legislation to criminalize practitioners (sometimes with the threat of capital punishment) were introduced by host countries or cultural outsiders to abolish MC with the support of some prominent male Jewish insiders, so too such negative actions are taken against practitioners of FC with the zealous support of some cultural insiders. Just as the bulk of Jewish men resisted and openly defied these edicts so too do the bulk of circumcised African women daily and openly resist global eradication policies and continue to define and celebrate their heritage. Just as MC has not ended and is even now seen as desirable with health and aesthetic benefits, so too FC has not ended and is even desired and being repackaged as vaginal cosmetic surgeries or “designer vaginas” by affluent segments of the very population of western women that today condemn us as “barbaric”.

.....
Further, most of us are not fooled by the substandard research evidence - anecdotal and those purporting to be objective science - to manipulate and coerce circumcised women into submission, that is, to give up a practice that is culturally meaningful to many African women. We question the appeal to a common sisterhood by our western feminist sisters who pretend they do not have a stake in seeing their own uncircumcised bodies as “normal”, “healthy”, and “whole” and therefore morally superior to our own supposedly “mutilated” African bodies.

Therefore, we call on restraint and respect on all sides. To the Soweis and Sokos of Bondo - you are mighty and need no other justification than that which we your daughters have just given you. No amount of western education and modernization can replace our ancestral rites and rights so we are with you. In that small place in Kenema you are showing the world that ours is not just about training women to be good wives and mothers (another myth constructed by our feminist critics and oft repeated from our own culturally ignorant western educated mouths) but that ours is a militant African feminist indigenous institution equipped with a hierarchy and election process that was set in place long before the very western feminist organizations that ridicule us now came into existence and won the right for their own women to vote in their male constructed and dominated social worlds. While our Bondo women warriors fought and died together with our Poro brothers in revolts against colonial injustices, where were our western feminist sisters who are today so interested in the intactness of our genitalia?



Here is a good article from Anthropology Today.

Here is a video from a female supported of female circumcision.

Propagandist hyperbolic rhetoric that implies anyone who is for female circumcision hates women or wants to control them is not helpful in discussing it and shows an utter ignorance of the cultures in which it is practiced.

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted May 27, 2011 10:00 PM

I don't like circumsized ****s ... I support this.



What?
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted May 27, 2011 10:18 PM

Elodin:
Quote:
There is a difference between cutting off a little skin and killing a child.
Only a difference of magnitude, not of kind of action. You say killing a child for religious reasons should not be allowed. Okay, then, how about ritual beatings that leave permanent marks? That don't leave permanent marks? How about religious amputation? Cutting off a finger? Cutting off a fingertip?
It's okay to cut off the foreskin, you say. If a religion required it, how much of the penis would it be okay to cut off before you'd object?
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
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Unimpressed by your logic
posted May 27, 2011 10:33 PM bonus applied by Corribus on 20 Aug 2011.
Edited by Lexxan at 22:44, 27 May 2011.

Banning it seems a bit severe imo, but I personally do not see ANY reason to have your baby circumsized at birth (and especially without its own consent)

Besides, Male Circumsizion is virtually useless nowadays either way. All arguements for it are either one of the three following:

1) Outdated
2) Subjective
3) Religious

1) Outdated, usually of a "preventive" medical nature. In the present day, it is so EASY to take care of your foreskin. After all, the majority of the men on the planet are uncut and nearly every single one of them manages to take care of their stuff with little ease. (All it takes is 3 seconds in the shower. Jeezes what a waste of time :eyeroll. Hardly worth the effort of "severing" somebody's foreskin off, imo (unless that person really INSISTS to have it removed, obvo)

Additionally, I would like to add that most (scientific) arguements for "prevention from STDs and Aids" are mostly invalid as well, as most of them are based on research and/or surveys... while Research is usefull to make a certain statement, they always, ALWAYS have a degree of subjectivity to them, as the researcher is conducting their surveys in order to come to a certain conclusion. (and hence, they will (subconscieously) interpret their data and fill in the results whilst keeping the goal of their survey in mind - for instance a survey conducted for a pro-circ group will nearly always end up being in favor of Circumsizion. Why? Not because of the raw data, but because of the subjective interpretation of those data, especially by those that conducted it.) Same goes for the "Pro-intact" surveys. Personally, I believe Research on the matter has little value for those reason and especially on a matter like this, where the results often end up opposing one another (which -mind- indicates flaws and that the research on the matter ought not to be taken too seriously)

After all for each survey pro whatchamacallit, there is at least one claiming the exact opposite.

2) Subjective arguements that have NO debatable basis whatsoever: Arguements like "Foreskins are revolting" or "Circumsizion is GROSS" are subjective and therefore invalid. You might just as well start discussing whether blue is (or isn't) the most beautiful color in the world. You cannot discuss or debate about personal opinions... and imo it is defo not a valid reason to cut off somebody else's foreskin. Ironically, as little as those subjective opinions matter in a debate like this, they are probably the biggest reason for circumsizion. (right next to ignorance I suppose) I personally am against Circ, but honestly, personal opinions (whether pro or against) should NOT interfere with the decision. It is a fairly important (and permanent) decision and all but a laughing matter.

3) Religious arguements that you once again, cannot build a solid arguement for. Similarly, you can start useless fights about religions and "Jesus said this" and "Moses did that". Whatever. I'm not even going to bother. Ultimately, these arguements are based on ancient information which is half-shrouded in mystery and amnesia. They are about as valid as 1) and 2). Personally I have no issues with the Jewish and Islamic demands for circumsizion, because these religions quote-unquote "require" it. (although I have met a Half-Jewish woman on the internet who told me that she insisted on NOT having her sons cut at birth. I guess that if she and her family can live with that, so can the San Francisco Jews.).

And besides, it is only a ban for the San Francisco/Santa Monica, right?  So if you still want your baby to be cut, do it OUTSIDE of the ban area. Combine it with a holiday and some icecream if you must (Macabre... but simultaneously oddly pleasing?), but quit whining (or put yourself into a revolting self-victimizing position. NOBODY CARES. Christ. :eyeroll

Of course I'm simply scratching the surface here. There's still an ethical debate behind it, but I think I can summarize it in merely two sentences:

1) Every man is born with a foreskin. Whether you believe in Evolution or Creation, doesn't matter: it would NOT be there if it were harmfull. It -literally- doesn't hurt to have a foreskin.

2) It is not your body, you perv. Would you like to have your earlobes cut off or your fingernails pulled out without your concent?  Have your eccentrics if you must, but ONLY if the person you want to apply the procedureon agrees. So WHAT if you like a cut penis more than an uncut one? YOU are not the one who is going to have to live with it! This is 2011, people not 1911. This arguement alone should be sufficient to close the case in favor of Contra-Circumsizion

Unless it is URGENTLY required to have your foreskin removed for medical reasons (by maltreating it, I suppose.) OR for religious reasons (I have no qualms with these, although I disagree with it) I can only have one sentence to say about Circumsizion: IT IS EFFING USELESS.

Ban it? I personally think it is a tad too severe, as I always resented unnesscairily strict rulings. Yet I'll be rooting for it to pass, simply because the American Circumsizion levels are unnessecairily high and it could send a big signal to them. Just remember this: In Europe, nearly EVERY man is uncut... and they manage just fine.

on a side note: While Male Circumsizion is useless, (yet mostly harmless) Female Circ otoh is absolutely revolting and is rightfully banned from the civilized world. If I had to give one example to define the word "vile" it would be exactly that.

Edit to remove ... errr... some typos.
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