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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Strongest Town
Thread: Strongest Town
unifex
unifex


Hired Hero
posted June 03, 2011 09:18 AM

Strongest Town

Hi guys, I'm sure this question has already been asked by a thousand forum newbies before me, but I couldnt see a specific post on the the topic.

Anyway, what I am interested in is skilled player's opinions on which town they think is the strongest, point for point.

I know the whole scissors paper rock thing is crucial in this game with each town having specific strengths and weaknesses which can better exploited versus some towns over others.

So for the purpose of a basis for comparison, lets refine the question by asking which town is the strongest assuming the player is relatively inexperienced or unskilled.

For example I have never played PvP and the AI is enough to keep me busy, and I find the undead town strong with great survivability in long fights and sieges. So Im guessing this is probablt partially due to ease of playing the town compared to others which are possibly more powerful if advanced strats (planning) and tactics (battles) are used?

Cheers and thanks in advance - would be great to hear any thoughts.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 03, 2011 09:35 AM

There is no strongest town, matter of map, level, army strength, how much chance the racial is given to develop, creeping strength, available spells, starting hero etc etc. But mostly a matter of map and how early or late in the game it is.

If you are into multiplayer against inexperienced players you would likely prefer a lategame faction since you are unlikely to be rushed and you can develop at your leisure. Rushing factions can be tricky to use because you have to play fast and press your advantage before the lategame faction overwhelms you.

Inferno is not a newbie starter faction, a lot of micromanagement and tricky tactics. Same for dwarves, they have a hard creeping time in first weeks and there is a lot to know about their lategame tricks. Academy is amongst the more complicated factions..

I'd say haven, sylvan, orcs, necro and dungeon are safer choices. They all have their finer points but can be learnt easier. Worth noting that necro and dungeon HAVE to rush.
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Oscarius
Oscarius


Famous Hero
*sleepy*
posted June 03, 2011 09:50 AM

In essence, every faction is pretty well balanced. But with a few flaws here and there of course. However, the player is often the deciding factor, with the "better" player winning most of the time. (bad strokes of luck CAN change this)

For a new player, which I count myself as by the way (), it can be slightly different. Some flaws are very difficult for new players to get around. Creeping with Inferno is a good example.

A new player should, for ease, aim for a faction that got:
Decent survivabilty, either through high defense or simple numbers. Decent or great creeping, with a good archer unit and/or good magic.
No silly resource needs, like Sylvan's wood or Fortress' crystals.

IMO Haven, Stronghold, Necro and Academy would be great for a new player. Rather simple, got good creeping and "anything works".
Inferno is NOT something you want to try at once.
Everything in between should atleast be workable for someone new, but with some difficility.

IMO, stay with the "simple" might or "simple" magic factions, and aim to use their advantages fully.  
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 03, 2011 10:01 AM

There is nothing simple about academy. There are options for multiple magic schools, warmachines, might hybrid and plenty of combos you need to know if you are to survive against hard hitting factions. Vs sylvan would you try dark? Light? Destructive? Summoning? A combination of those? How could you tell what is going to work? Chances are you will be dead before 3 turns pass and you wouldn't even know what you did wrong It also requires great adaptability, both in creeping and general hero development and a good idea on how to use artificer against each faction.

Obviously there are some general guidelines but the truth is fighting against heavy might factions will be harder for you and easier for them. You just have to know the way
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Oscarius
Oscarius


Famous Hero
*sleepy*
posted June 03, 2011 10:06 AM

Well, how should I put it...
I agree that to use Academy to it's full advatage isn't simple.
But it's rather simple to start of...decently. Choose 1-3 magic schools and enlightment, and any skills you like. Combine that with the decent ranged units of Academy, and you got some easy creeping going.
No magic school is really useless in a final battle so you won't be TOO hamstrung.

Is this "strategy" great or does it utilicy Academy's strength? Not really.
Is it simple? IMO, yes.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 03, 2011 10:27 AM

My main concern is lategame, not creeping. Orcs, sylvan, dwarves, dungeon take a specific plan to kill and there aren't many viable builds, a couple of safe and plenty of risky to suicidal routes. Again it is a matter of player level, if they both are newbies the one controlling the might damaging faction will have an easier time defeating academy than the opposite. Also most newbies cannot tell what spell it is a good idea to start with, what to leave for later, when to switch spellcasting tactics. Academy depends on controlling just that.
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unifex
unifex


Hired Hero
posted June 04, 2011 03:06 AM
Edited by unifex at 12:55, 04 Jun 2011.

Thanks guys, you know I appreciate members taking the time to respond because I have no doubt this topic has most likely been done to death on the forum, and must be tiresome going over the same old stuff again ... unless of course you’ve used an endurance buff or two

If you would kindly let me stretch the friendship a bit further, there are several points made by ELVIN that I would really like to learn a bit more about.

“ ..... Inferno is not a newbie starter faction, a lot of micromanagement and tricky tactics”

What sort of micro management should I be focusing on with this faction? I seem to find Inferno the hardest to play; my weakest point seems to be in my battle tactics with this faction but of course that could be a consequence of porly balanced skill selection and prep. The Arch Devils in particular I dont seem to use well and they usually get wiped out early in my battles versus AI.

“ .... Worth noting that necro and dungeon HAVE to rush”

With Necro Im guessing this is because Necro higher tier troops are relatively weaker? I find Necro is sort of a numbers game when I play it, and the battles can become like an endurance race outlasting the enemy. Necro is big on FUN tho

I’m not sure why Dungeon have to rush? I thought they had strong top tier troops?

“ ...might hybrid  .... the truth is fighting against heavy might factions will be harder for you”

What exactly is might hybrid and why is heavy might considered more powerful?

Must admit I’ve always leaned towards heroes who use magic, but I suspect this could just be because of the illusion that a magic hero is dealing more damage. I think hero damage dealt directly with magic is relatively easy and straight-forward to manage and implement and immediately evident, whereas building a might hero to deliver the damage through troops requires more strategic planning. Is this possibly one of those ‘traps for new players’ – the magic hero just seems more powerful?

Also I know from personal experience that the difference between PvP and AI is immeasurable and PvP experience is essential to improve skill and knowledge. I still remember way back in the 90’s playing Warcraft 2 and finishing the campaigns and a few custom games versus AI and basically thinking I had it sorted. And then my first (online) PvP game – now that was an experience! I will never forget how much my play skill improved through online PvP (Aussie Warcraft League – nostalgia sigh...)

Anyway, thanks again for the help I really do appreciate the help.

And safe travels to you all!


PS: Reading through the information/fact sheets prepared by ThE_HyDrA for the Sylvan (faction) creatures under the abilities for Ancient Treant have a look at TurboBoost!! LoL nice one
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CliffracerRIP
CliffracerRIP

Tavern Dweller
posted June 04, 2011 11:06 PM
Edited by CliffracerRIP at 23:07, 04 Jun 2011.

Dwarves are the strongest faction in Hammers of Fate, I'm not sure if Orcs are tougher in Hammers of Fate.

You have ridiculously tough units where all the units ability to use cheap runes to give them double attacks!  

And if that wasn't bad enough, you get hundreds, maybe even a thousand free units to defend your cities.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 05, 2011 12:26 AM

Inferno has a lot of earlygame tricks that take experience to pull off. Like gating in the other corner to make the AI return to attack the gated units to buy time for your hero to keep hitting. Or have one hellhound run in circles waiting for the hero to finish 4 speed units. Or have a big stack of imps in the corner, covered by 4-5 stacks of 2 demons that all gate and create a protective wall of gated units to either delay the AI or to steal retaliations for your big stack to score hits. With similar gating tricks and some dark spellcasting you can kill lots of archdevils on week 3. But one single oversight like forgetting to cover your real units with a gated one can really cost you.

Necro is not so good in lategame, not as much as other factions anyway. The necromancy boost may not be enough in lategame but when you rush you not only will have a level advantage but also a nicely boosted army within a short time. Dark is always useful but summoning or destructive is especially good early. I think part of why other factions are better in lategame is because they can gain momentum fast, especially with morale and luck than necro will not likely have. Either way unless the map has plenty of towns for you to abuse the undead transformer..

Dungeon units are good but.. die like flies. Especially in lategame. At that time destructive may not be good enough either, especially against factions like haven, dwarves, academy, sylvan and orcs. Dwarves, orcs and academy especially. Besides dungeon has the best rushing potential of all factions. In 3.0 I managed to kill lots of titans week 2 I had fireball, ignite and invisibility abuse but unfortunately this is unlikely to happen in 3.1. Now units move randomly in the battlefield when you go invisible and may bump on you by accident Either way all you need is furies against slow walkers, stalkers against shooters/casters and hero does the rest if he has to.

By heavy might I mean factions that can pack a good punch like haven, sylvan or orcs. Hybrid I mean a combination of might and magic.

Magic heroes like warlocks look immensely powerful but a successful first turn charge can mean that your whole army will be dead within 2 turns. Those two turns are not enough for the warlock to nuke everything It's all about momentum, sylvan or orcs with good morale and maybe luck can kill your units at an amazing pace. Even if the warlock can decimate a whole stack in one turn the rest will happily continue the slaughter. Windstrider boots, tactics or aura of swiftness can put a lot of pressure on you. Then there are situations like a good paladin stack getting morale after their charge and the hero using divine guidance on them to make them act immediately. Or was it mass haste and hoping for empathy to let you play a second time before the warlock even acts.. I forget Unlikely scenario but lethal if it happens.
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unifex
unifex


Hired Hero
posted June 05, 2011 04:51 AM
Edited by unifex at 05:23, 05 Jun 2011.

EDIT: Post deleted somehow I duplicated it!

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unifex
unifex


Hired Hero
posted June 05, 2011 04:53 AM
Edited by unifex at 05:24, 05 Jun 2011.

I've always known this game has the depth of chess on eight dimensions (8 factions), but from our replies and reading through the threads on this forum since joining early this week I can see there is just so much more to this game than I’ve picked up from playing exclusively single player against AI.

Just checking I understand it all correctly:

“ .... Or have one hellhound run in circles waiting for the hero to finish 4 speed units”

Does this mean when placing creatures at start of battle you have one stack of a single hellhound? I dont think I understand this point, what’s the benefit in having the hellhound run in circles, and what does it mean having the hero finish the 4 speed units, are 4 speed units the lower init/speed creatures in my army?

“.... covered by 4-5 stacks of 2 demons  ....... to steal retaliations ”

Does this mean using up 4-5 places when placing creatures before battle with small stacks of demons, and have one or two stacks of high damage units? Does stealing retaliations mean using up the enemies single retaliation strike with a junk unit before attacking with my heavy hitting stack?

“..... stalkers against shooters/casters”

Which creature is a stalker? Sorry in advance if the answer is bleedingly obvious.

Alrighty, thanks again for all the advice, and once again if there is a sticky post somewhere covering all this please point me in the right direction. I did look first but couldn’t find these specific ideas covered anywhere. I have read through all the faction and creature guides completed by ThE_HyDrA which were interesting and helpful.

One more question, I've always wondered what exactly does the Sorcery atb do? I know it says the interval between two consecutive spells in reduced, does this mean the heroes init is raised if the last action was a spellcast?

Thanks again Elvin, I know I keep saying it but I really do appreciate the help.

Cheers!

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 05, 2011 10:34 AM

Hellhound has speed 7 and high init. That means that it can move around in the battlefield in a way that it avoids being hit by speed 4 units like zombies or squires so your hero is free to attack them. No casualties, no mana lost. That said it can be risky against living units because they might get lucky with morale and trap you since they will no doubt be split in 4 stacks

PS.
Whenever the AI considers you are a very low threat to it, it splits stacks in 4. Which means that if you have spells with area of effect like circle of winter and fireball you can hit two at a time, handy trick against shooters since they won't move from their starting positions.

Quote:
Does stealing retaliations mean using up the enemies single retaliation strike with a junk unit before attacking with my heavy hitting stack?

Mm hmm. Cannon fodder

Dungeon tier 1 upgrade is assassin or stalker. The latter can turn invisible for 3 turns which can lead to a number of abuses.

Sorcery resets the hero's atb to 30%, that means his next turn will come in roughly 2/3 of his full turn. It does not affect init though, it remains 10 for the hero.
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Bombur
Bombur


Known Hero
posted June 05, 2011 11:47 AM

Thhere really isn't a strongest town, just some factions are better in middle game than in late game or in early game than in middle game and so on. But if I were to choose which factions are in my opinion the strongest and most deadly, with magic, units and also player creativity it would be Necro, Fortress, Academy and Inferno(not in this particular order), followed by sylvan
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unifex
unifex


Hired Hero
posted June 05, 2011 01:30 PM

Alrighty, thanks again.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 05, 2011 01:46 PM

Btw check your messages.
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unifex
unifex


Hired Hero
posted June 07, 2011 02:09 AM
Edited by unifex at 02:30, 07 Jun 2011.

Ok,

I asked:

  “..... stalkers against shooters/casters”

   Which creature is a stalker? Sorry in advance if the answer
   is bleedingly obvious.

And Elvin helpfully responded:

        Dungeon tier 1 upgrade is assassin or stalker.
        The latter can turn invisible for 3 turns which can
        lead to a number of abuses.

To which I was still unsure, plus other aspects of the posts I've been reading also referred to units I wasnt aware of. And then 'ding' - realisation dawned, the discussions on this forum are based on playing with ToE expansion, which I currently haven't been using this time around after I started playing HoMMv again about 6 weeks ago.Probably sounds silly but was quite an epiphanic moment for me

The other thing for me is I have never played MP HoMM and have never become involved in online discussion previously for this game (bear in mind I have been kept busy with RL and other games, particularly EQ2 and Civ 5 (nows there's a frustrating exercise in bug ridden gameplay).

The last couple of weeks have just reaffirmed something I've known since war2 and the UO Beta, there is simply no comparison between single player V AI compared to MP, especially with games that use resource cheating to compensate for soft AI.

I will never ever forget the day I joined the aussie warcraft league and my first game, dying in 3 minutes to a 5 orc rush - to my eternal shame I accused the other guy of cheating lol.

Nor will I forget the first time I was smacked by a skilled player with a red (murderer) toon in UO (back in the glory days before they ruined the game by splitting the server into seperate pvp and non pvp (carebear) realms). I had my 5 capped (100/100) skills which back then was the max and boy I really thought " The Illustrious Tom_Bombadil Grandmaster Mage " was pretty slick ... lol I didn't know someone could die so fast ... then of course (for anyone who played UO) standing there quite helpless as a ghost and watching my killer casually remove all my goodies from my backpack on my corpse. I really think the original UO had the best PVP of any MMORPG I have played, including games like DAoC and AO which were designed specifically around PVP models.

Anyways, I really enjoy reading through the forums and the knowledge of some players simply blows me away . And of course is also fun reading the posts of players who 'think' they know, and simply cannot recognise good advice when it's offered .. lol some things never change!!

OK Im off to install ToE cheers all!


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 07, 2011 12:03 PM

Heheh enjoy
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