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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - New Factions
Thread: Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - New Factions This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT»
TheBaron
TheBaron


Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
posted June 04, 2011 02:04 AM bonus applied by VokialBG on 14 Jul 2011.
Edited by TheBaron at 06:21, 07 Jun 2011.

Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - New Factions and Campaign

This thread is for posting faction and campaign development ideas that pertain to the new Eternal Essence mod
____________
"My favorite" - Jean-
Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg.

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TheBaron
TheBaron


Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
posted June 04, 2011 02:06 AM
Edited by TheBaron at 14:04, 03 Sep 2011.

Hey people, this is my first draft of an Eternal Essence race. It's also my first ever race idea!
Feedback would be most appreciated, modeling would be even more appreciated!!


OBJECTIVES
Major task 1a: * Development of The People's history and unique POV of the world they live in.
1 - How are they aware of their greater position in the universe, how they understand the history of other factions.
2 - What are their feelings to the other peoples in Ashan. How do they interact with them; what motivates them to behave a certain way to certain people/races.
3 - Define their culture and paint a picture of the way they live, illustrate their goals and aspirations. about half way

Major task 1b: * Develop the identity of the main players in the world of The People.
1 - Villains and Heroes - Historical mostly done
2 - Villains and Heroes - Current
      -- Identify and refine playable hero ideas.
3 - Other characters

Major task 2: * Create units that are contiguous with 1 and 3.
a - brainstorm unit ideas to be finalised
b - refine descriptions of units
c - create balanced skills and abilities - may have to wait for in-game implementation.
d - *****create working models*****

Major task 3: * Create an understandable and eventually usable mode for The People to relate to Eternal Essence. - The more Quantomas can add to this the less dispute there will be later.
a - clarify how it is used by the player
b - clarify how it is used in lore
c - clarify how it effects/is affected by heroes, units, skills and abilities.

Major task 4: * Create a world-map functional campaign based on tasks 1-3.
a.1 - create an interactive world map.
a.2 - create a base story
b. - create maps
c. - create movies



Heroes 5 is set in the most recent future of the current Heroes universe as far as I'm aware. So I figured that inventing a faction that ties in with what has happened, can also illustrate what is yet to happen (that's confusing). Anyway, I think it has legs.

Also, I prefer the idea of sequential upgrading rather than alternative upgrades, but for the purpose of currency I have made this faction with alternatives
eg. Little Baba -> Baba Yaga <-> Mama Yaga, however this could be easily changed.

City Name: Bulwark
Dominant race: Shifters (Were-beasts), also known as The People
Mythological base: Gypsy/Romany/Slavic folklore crossed with totemic peoples ala Ainu/Native (South)Americans.
Philosophy: A people who believe in the the hybrid spirits of man and beast and in the controllable substance that flows around them known as Eternal Essence.
Alignment: Neutral/good. They have no inherent hatred of any particular race except the demons of the shadow man. As they value the mortal coil and its natural cycles, they find necromancy distasteful, but are not particularly hateful of necromancers.
Symbol/Emblem: The Wolf Ourobouros - A wolf eating it's own tail.
Colors: The tinkers have been luridly colored for over 1000 years. They love any bright multi-colored, festive garments. The dhampir and true knights are the exception and dress in solid colors. They tend to favor sunset orange during ceremonies and formal events.

Hero Types: Described for vanilla, RPE and potential ranked and gendered hero formats. Ranks increase every 10 levels.
MALE: rank 1. Vagabond (Might), Wise-one (Magic), Exile (Balanced). rank 2. Wolf (Might), Totem (Magic), Jager (Balanced). rank 3. Dire-Wolf (Might), Yarila (Magic), Lord of the Hunt (Balanced).
FEMALE: rank 1. Wildling (Might), Wild-one (Magic), Feral (Balanced). rank 2. Fox (Might), Tytania (Magic), Huntress (Balanced). rank 3. Lynx (Might), Kostroma (Magic), Lady of the Hunt (Balanced).


Background:
Long ago before The People were strong, the Shifters of the Eastern steppes beyond Ranaar lived on the western borders of what was to become the Seven Duchies. They were peaceful and magically inferior nomads with wide but unmarked territories, who roamed the lands trading exotic items and fantastic stories. As the powers of the Irollan Elves and the Duchies grew, they exploited the innocence of The People and eventually forced them from their lands. As their numbers dwindled, they became hunted by the various peoples of the west. They were bloody sport for the duchy nobles, the earliest patients of wizard experimentation, bullied from the forests by the elves and, later, routinely tricked from their possessions by the dark-elves. They have managed to persevere through ages of oppression and bloodshed by adapting to new lands and by keeping strong ties to their heritage.

The People have lived on the eastern steppes for an age now, but being forced there with nothing, they were preyed upon by the beasts of this new land. They had to learn to live and hunt alongside animals for their survival. As time passed they became more and more like those they imitated, though the memory of their lost home kept them from losing their humanity entirely. Their feeling of loss galvanised their sense of identity, and wandering tribes gained strength from inter-marriage, cultural exchange and ritual developments. And so, The People flourished. They became strong and remembered their True Spirit that had kept them alive for so long.

Unlike the western men however, The People rejected the great dragon gods as The People in turn had felt rejected by them. When the factions of the west burned The People with black sorcery and magical fire, the dragons ignored them and lent them no power with which to defend themselves, for they had no divine allegiances. Rather, as The People grew, so too did their ties to the natural world of the animals. A form of ritual bonding tied the life-forces of The People and their pets, strengthening both parties and making one more like the other. The dogs became more intelligent and capable of basic speech, while the men grew more agile and experienced a heightening of their senses. As the benefits of these bonds became common knowledge among the various tribes, the village elders came from afar and gathered to discuss a new way of life for The People. This gathering became known as The Rising; on this day The People united and laid down a plan to become something more than human, more than animal, and to be free from the fear of slaughter. They devoted their lives to understanding the fabric of nature and life, tying themselves closer still to the natural world, beginning an understanding and manipulation of what they now call the Eternal Essence.

Rumour has it that The People have been seen in the Seven Duchies. Tales of men with wild eyes returning those lost in the forest to their path, and those caught in bogs to firm ground. Another story tells of a man running faster than a startled deer and preying on caravans, destroying even those with armed guards. If the rumours are true, perhaps The People are considering a return to their lost home...

Significant places and groups:
* The Chase (or The People's Chase) – the term for the territories inhabited and hunted on by The People.
* Beleria – the cultural capitol and first bulwark of The People. Beleria was founded when the great caravan Beler้ came to a halt at the southern edge of the 'forest of the lost'/'lost forest' and the Sabris (Cold) river.
* The Chaser Knights – a semi-military elite of true men and women who overcome the dangers faced by the people, initially established to combat the machinations of The Shadow Man and his minions. Their missions range across the territories and sometimes involve leaving the Chase.
* The Ward (or The People's Ward) – similar to the Chaser Knights, the Ward defends Beleria from external threats. This duty has been made famous by Trolls, who enjoy the laborious duties of the watch and are famed guards. They are centralised in Beleria. Ribesal Wardens are occasionally contracted as builders for large projects, of which there are few.
* The Weavers – A circle of wise Mama Yagas. They concern themselves with the welfare of The People and the Chase.
* The Bossa Crew – Shifters who serve the Shadow Man. They cannabalise other shifters in order to steal their powers. Many believe that they are also the ones that put the much feared faceless curse on children. They are insidious and highly despised by the entire population of The People, especially because it is difficult to distinguish a member from any other person. No one knows where they convene or where they come from. After the  destruction of Carnavon there were rumors of a mass Bossa Crew presence in the south.
* The Carnival of Essence – A yearly festival started by the Spirit Elders. It is never at a known location but always occurs within the Chase. Those of The People with the strongest ties to the Eternal Essence are drawn to it by an irresistible urge, no others may follow. It is said that at the Carnival of Essence that dreams become reality, prophecies are born and great wonders become known. Many return silent, never to speak again, some return with great knowledge, others do not remember their journey at all.
* Tinkertown – A town on the north-eastern fringe of the Chase over the Sabris, favoured by retiring shifters. Many people come here to trade stories and strange items. Others come to have things fixed.
* Circus – A jovial town on the western fringe of The Chase, bordering the sea.
* The Divers – A troope of Rusalka native to Circus, they specialise in international relations...
* Carnavon – A southern town destroyed by the Shadow Man's 'Empty Ones', it was later haunted by a 'Morrow' which was destroyed when the Ward finally arrived. The Chaser Knights were established following this incident.

Some character ideas:
I would also like to caveat this guy by acknowledging that Heroes 5 is probably not capable of rendering the amount of detail into its characters compared to what I am writing (and having drawn) into them. I don't really mind. I think it's better to have a good base and to make compromises in the implementation than the other way around.

* The Laughing Man – one of the Spirit Elders responsible for The Rising, began the order of the Varcolac and was the oldest of the three.
* The Silent Man – one of the Spirit Elders responsible for The Rising, began the order of the Dhampir and was the youngest of the three.
* The Crying Man – one of the Spirit Elders responsible for The Rising, began the order of the True Knights and was the middle of the three.
* The Feather Man – a man who watched over the Spirit Elders while they rose, he became the first of the Ward.
* Baba Yaga – the first great Kostroma witch from whom the Baba class derive their name. She also made the first chicken-legged hut – a mainstay of The People's caravans.
* Bossa – The enigmatic leader of the Bossa Crew. Legend has it that he was once a powerful Spirit Elder who was seduced by the Shadow Man. It is said that the Silent Man had his tongue removed by Bossa before The Feather Man could stop him. Obviously the Silent Man doesn't talk about it.

* The Shadow Man – The nemesis of The People, they believe he is one of the faceless who escaped during the chaos wars, or somehow avoided them completely. The People maintain that he is ultimately responsible for the division between the races and facilitates the demons in returning to the world. Unlike Urgash and Kha-Baleth, The Shadow Man does not directly attack the factions of the world, he prefers to influence events from behind the scenes through manipulation. The People believe that because they are aware of his existence he hunts them single-mindedly, as he fears the combined might of those who would stand against him if his existence is revealed. He is said to feed on the faces and shadows of their children, and in doing so turning them into Empty ones.

* Empty ones, aka Horrors (Neutral unit, never joins) – Shadowless and evil child thralls with a black hole where their face used to be. An empty one has been known to murder an entire village, starting with its siblings. Some people go mad when looking into the dark abyss where an innocent child's face used to be. These children still grow and age though differently to mortal men, and they never die. The oldest of these are the Morrow, who are said to have become more like their maker (Boss unit).

* Iyego D้'Argo – A young leader of a Bulwark outpost, a good man and warrior.
* Natural Selection (Natural for short) – A dhampir of exceptional cunning and wisdom. The Odysseus of The People.
* The Silver Wolf – Leader of the Metal Wolf brotherhood.
* Copper & Bronze – Twins, and two of the greatest warriors of the Metal Wolves.
* Iria – A young Tytania Kikimora and friend of Iyego D้'Argo, powerful for her age, Iria is carefully watched by Baba Yuga
* Illiana – A Kostroma Rusalka and friend of Natural Selection, an ex-Diver from Circus.
* Ferista – A mysterious Lynx witch occasionally seen in Tinkertown.
* Lubjalok – The traumatised father of a child who became an empty one, he wanders alternately half-asleep and half-mad through the world. He is the sole survivor of the destruction of Carnavon.
* Gajeraia – A True Knight of Beleria, and a Lord of the Hunt. Captain of the Chaser Knights.
* Kajee – A dhampir of Beleria, and a Lord of the Hunt. Sightmaster of the Chaser Knights.
* Lapin – A Bjorning, and a Lord of the Hunt. Leader of The People's Ward.
* Baba Neega – A wise old Mama Yaga, she raised Iria and Illiana.
* Baba Yuga – The most powerful Baba in the The People's Chase.
* Yubaba – The madame of a famous bath-house bordering the Chase and the sea.


==================================================
Units:
Level 1: Tinker/Vodyanoy/Vodnici – The People live far longer than lesser men and the tinkers are The Grandfathers of The People, they are beyond the age of The Great Hunt and have given enough knowledge back to The Children. In times of war they go for the Last  Hunt;  to die with the dignity of defending The People.

* Abilities – (All units) Repair [heal Yaga unit]. (Vodyanoy)  Fish Scales [50% water resistance and 10% projectile resistance]. (Vodnici) Theft [Vodnici will supply the army with a small amount of gold after a victory]
------------------------

Level 2: Witch/Kikimora/Rusalka – For The People the witches are far from evil old hags, they are the gifted huntresses of the night. During their youth the witches live wild and free, loving and hunting as their will takes them. They are beloved by The People as a celebration of their culture's youth and regeneration. As these young women near the end of their witch-hood, they can elect to become Kikimora and move into the village, or aid the hunting of the True Men as Rusalka.

* (all units) Eternal Essence affinity [???]; Swift attack. (Kikimora) Random Blessing (Rusalka) Trick [chance to cast advanced confusion on attack].
------------------------

Level 3: True Man/Werewolf/Werefox – The People believe that they are the True Men of Ashan, as they have not forgone the power of their bodies for that of the dragon gods, instead they have fortified themselves through adversity. To them, becoming more like animals is in fact an acceptance of their true nature as part of the natural world, rather than a separation from it. The most skilful and valiant become the cunning Dhampir or stalwart True Knights.

* (all units) Wolf-brother [neutral wolf units will join Hero's army]. (Werewolf) Leap; Paw strike. (Werefox) Strike and Return; Paw Strike.
--------------------

Level 4: Little Baba/Baba Yaga/Mama Yaga – The little Babas are the strange elder women of The People, they speak in riddles which are said to warp the fabric of reality around them. The tales of Baba Yaga eating babies inspires a child-like terror in those who hear her cackling battle-cry.

* (all units) Greater Eternal Essence affinity [???]; Caster; Ranged attack. (Baba Yaga) Howl of Terror. (Mama Yaga)  Warp cloak [60% magic projectile resistance, includes elemental ranged attacks].
-----------------

Level 5: Troll/Bjorning/Ribesal – The trolls are the even-tempered guardians of The People's cities, they stand like fierce towers of muscle on the battlefield, with the cold hunger of a wild animal burning in their eyes. As these giants grow older, they have been known to shift into the form of huge bears.

* (all units) Large creature; Throw stones [creature has 3 ammo for ranged attacks and 5 for upgrades, ammo cart and quiver has no effect on ammo, no melee penalty, no range penalty]. (Bjorning) Bear roar. (Ribesal) Enrage; Arise My Forefathers [resurrect tinker units, no HP penalty].
-----------------

Level 6: Yaga Hut/Yaga Fort/Yaga Palace – The chicken-legged houses of the Babas, they are not to be taken lightly. These bizarre living buildings have mighty legs and are inclined to leap onto their foes, crushing them like egg-shells.

* (all units) Huge Creature – These units take up 9 tiles (!); Leap. (Yaga Fort) Impervious [enforces 80% ranged penalty to units targeting it or creatures behind it]. (Yaga Palace) Arrow tower [ranged attack, enforces 30% ranged penalty to units targeting it or creatures behind it]
-------------------

Level 7: Varcolac/Dhampir/True Knight – Even among the True Men there is greatness, and the Varcolac are they. Often considered a kind of vampire by outsiders, few aside from The People and Necromancers truly know what the Varcolac are – the fiercest human hunters in Ashan. This parallel is drawn because those few who have survived a Varcolac raid have seen these monsters drink the blood from the torn limbs of their enemies. Of all True Men, Dhampir and True Knights garner the most respect aside from the Babas, but little is known about their secret ways...

* (all units) Beast-master [certain neutral units will always join]; Leap (2); Strike and return. (Varcolac) Beserk [10% chance to have turn again after attack, does not occur consecutively] (Dhampir) Lesser Life-drain; flier. (True Knight) Slayer; Viscous Strike [one use of deadly strike, 80% success rate]
-----------------------------

Hero Skills

Skillwheels and racial abilities are an essential part of a faction. What worried me was how this faction would differentiate itself from the others. I feel that most of the magic bases are covered by wizards, necros and dark-elves, and the anti-magic units are the barbarians. So how about a race that has a low spell range like barbarians and doesn't have magic resistance either? The Shifters will have to make up for their weakness with speed and heavy attacks. Their abilities should reflect their races animal ferocity, cunning and agility, whilst maintaining a separate play style to the barbarians and dwarves. Skirmishing attacks involving striking and returning will be their strength, as they may not have the high HP and defense of other faction's units. Moving around the battlefield and keeping distance should be an important part of the Shifter strategy. Perhaps certain racial skills or feats will allow Shifters to tank for a limited time.

Racial:
1. Predator: ... not sure yet but sounds awesome.
or
2. Metamorph: Allows heroes to activate a creature's spirit power??

feats: Ultimate ability: Triumph of The People - all units receive half retaliation damage.
* True Spirit: ???
* Power of the Wild: ???
*

Other skills:
Chasing [replaces dark magic]: increases movement of all units by 1 per level of mastery.
feats:
* Lore of the Hunt: Reduces defense of enemy living creatures by 10% (cumulative with offense)
Weakening strike.
* Run Them Down: Adds movement bonus to attack (1.5% added per tile)
Wild Fear: Reduces living enemy movement and morale by 1.
Voodoo dance: Same effect as advanced mass slow, undispellable.
* Take Cover: Units behind obstacles receive 40% less damage from physical projectile attacks in addition to range penalty, adds 10% to Yaga Fort/Palace bonus.

Essence Mastery [replaces sorcery]: Any ideas Q??

----
Spirit Fire [Replaces light magic]: unique racial spell casting set.
* Wild Mind: Hero gets an additional .75% initiative per level (including levels already gained).

Community [replaces summoning magic]: as above. probably with spells that summon animals like wolves, etc. or reinforcements. Works well with leadership.

Throwing [replaces destructive magic]: Allows the hero to throw special objects at enemies (similar to destructive magic).

The above 3 skill sets will have more unit and hero attack feats than magic feats, as these skills are NOT meant to be played in the same way as the magics they replace. They will probably be limited to a few spells each and a couple of abilities, with the remainder probably being passive abilities with quirky effects.
--------------------


Campaign!
After Quantomas' suggestion that there could be a world map upon which to choose the course of a campaign, I decided it might be good to make the first campaign draft for Eternal Essence. Here is a map of Ashan taken from Heroes 6. I'm assuming that the differences between 6 and 5 are negligible, so it should fit in with current lore.



The campaign diverges into 2 and then a third alternative/bonus/higher difficulty/extended end section. Campaigns a) and b) meet up for a final battle, which will extend if certain events are triggered in previous scenarios. P stands for prologue and is the Shifter tutorial scenario, E is epilogue and will be something nice for veterans.

You might notice that 9c, 10c and 11c are a bit all over the place. 9c is when the shifters retreat to a tunnel under the mountains in the north-east of irollan, which takes them to whatever that mountain range is south east of there (10c). unfortunately for them, some underground shennanigans teleports them to god knows where (11c), and they have to return home from this strange place, perhaps making some startling revelations about.... some stuff...! (du duh duuuuuuuh!!)

Change log - DD/MM/YY:
updated 27/06/11 - preliminary character concepts and campaign concepts.
updated 03/06/11 - More detailed character concepts: Kala'Bossa, Feather Man and Iyego De'Argo; Concept artwork for Kala'Bossa and Illiana.
____________
"My favorite" - Jean-
Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted June 05, 2011 08:23 PM

What about this map? I find it less boring:


____________
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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted June 05, 2011 08:26 PM

Less boring or not, though, it isn't canon.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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TheBaron
TheBaron


Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
posted June 05, 2011 08:56 PM
Edited by TheBaron at 20:20, 06 Jun 2011.

@Cepheus that was the one I was looking for! Oh well, the H6 one is virtually identical.

You're right magnomagus, that map is less boring, but after doing a bit of reading supposedly as Cepheus said it's not canon. It's a shame really because that beta Ashan map would have allowed fans to expand the heroes geopolitical system without compromising the lore. For example, if ubihole decides that there's already a faction that lives where my guys are from, where the hell else am I supposed to put them, the map is tiny!!

EDIT: No more of my pics, unless i stumble across some I'm really fond of...

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TheBaron
TheBaron


Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
posted June 06, 2011 04:53 AM
Edited by TheBaron at 20:23, 06 Jun 2011.

Here's some I still like

The Yaga Hut/Palace (Fort would be more castle-y):



The more i think about it, the more I think the true knight should be a black night-esque type like this.



Thank you to those unnamed artists I have thieved from.
____________
"My favorite" - Jean-
Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg.

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted June 06, 2011 07:33 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 19:35, 06 Jun 2011.

Good first steps for the campaign. I like the world map, images like this (all three, canon is probably the best) always inspire me to see what possible adventures lay in wait there. Just looking at the map and dreaming a bit, reflection helps the player to enjoy the game.

This is also the spirit I would like to capture for the campaign map. The player should be able to look at it and then be free to choose a location. Non-linearity can be much more than different endings or paths how the campaign unfolds. The world is divided into regions, these in kingdoms, these again into duchies and so on. What I would like to see, is that the player can pick any duchy, zoom in and then be presented with the missions currently available there.

The campaign is technically initialized with its start mission (or multiple ones). As it unfolds missions get completed and others show up in response. This way multiple campaigns can be available from the world map, and the player get a choice to continue with this or that. The important missions change the world state, and as such provide a time line, a reference that again can trigger events to happen.

In this way we can intertwine campaigns and missions with much flexibility. Each mission will provide rewards, boni, possibly penalties as well. This means the player could for example advance with the Orcs in duchy X, then take the role of the Elves in a different region, help the Knights to defend a Castle in another duchy and so on. What the player does matters and impacts how events unfold.

This has consequences how we can tell the story. It will not diminish story-telling as one might guess at first, just the opposite is true. Imagine, at start if the player visits for example the Wolf Duchy, he or she gets only a choice of generic missions, e.g. find the lost heir, defeat the marauders, secure the mountain range and so on. But as the story progresses the setting changes, for example the same Wolf Duchy will now offer missions like save the king's advisor or make sure that the king's advisor does not succeed. This is more intricate, non-linear, and of course creates new challenges for writing an open story.

The Shifter story can be part of the campaign just as you envisioned, but it will be much more open. We can have important characters whose success matters, circles of sages, remote regions with oracles that offer benefits and much more. The questions you raised can be a guide: what's happening in the world of Ashan to accommodate this new (or rediscovered) force? How are the existing races responding to this force? Where did it come from? How do the dragon gods feel about it (if they care at all)?

Cepheus suggested that we also reenvision the original H5 campaigns, a plan Markkur and I were already hatching. But we have much more freedom. We can also envision events playing out in a remote, yet unknown continent (after all the game has portals), if things get to crowded in Ashan.

--

Regarding another subject I have a bit of critic. I am not sure how to say this right. It's difficult. Typically when I start to criticise things, people tend to run for cover. The last thing I want is to discourage people, but it's somehow an issue that I feel is important for the entire project.

So, please brace yourself.

I find the images of the creatures presented to put it mildly totally lacking in style and substance. The thing I like about Heroes V is that while the models are not perfect, they give room for imagination, so that you can see the perfect necromancer or orc chieftain in your mind. The H5 creatures all have substance that ties them to the world, as a creature, animal or intelligent being. I think you are doing yourself and the project a disservice, by having pictures which I would think of second or third grade in quality. We should strive for the best to inspire people. It doesn't need to be the exact creature you are looking for. In many cases even something remotely close to your intended vision will suffice if it has class and style. So my plea is this, please try to do your best in selecting truly inspiring artwork and concept. It is IMO magnitudes better to have something excellent and then to explain how it needs to be modified to fit your vision then to show something that lacks quality.

Maybe someone can teach me a lesson here, how I could have said this without being negative.

In the end, it's tied to another subject, how we wish this project to be perceived and how we go about this internally. My personal preference is, to set our own standard high, but it's just a message board if we are honest, so I am not sure whether I am overshooting the mark here.

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TheBaron
TheBaron


Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
posted June 06, 2011 08:14 PM
Edited by TheBaron at 20:18, 06 Jun 2011.

Quote:

I find the images of the creatures presented to put it mildly totally lacking in style and substance. The thing I like about Heroes V is that while the models are not perfect, they give room for imagination, so that you can see the perfect necromancer or orc chieftain in your mind. The H5 creatures all have substance that ties them to the world, as a creature, animal or intelligent being. I think you are doing yourself and the project a disservice, by having pictures which I would think of second or third grade in quality. We should strive for the best to inspire people. It doesn't need to be the exact creature you are looking for. In many cases even something remotely close to your intended vision will suffice if it has class and style. So my plea is this, please try to do your best in selecting truly inspiring artwork and concept. It is IMO magnitudes better to have something excellent and then to explain how it needs to be modified to fit your vision then to show something that lacks quality.


This doesn't faze me at all. Naturally, it's pretty hard to provide a likeness to one's imagination, let alone from a quick scan of gooooogle images. It would help if I was an excellent artist myself, but I'm quite simply not, and so I thought it might be useful to provide some approximations for inspiration.

Perhaps I am doing myself a disservice by providing images, but then I can hardly get in other people's heads and know how they envisage the characters and how close or far-away they are to the initial concept. Though I guess the point you're making is that it doesn't really matter, and I think to an extent you're right. I guess that's why feedback is so important.

All good the more time devoted to any of our creative endeavors almost always results in a better end product.

EDIT: Nor should we be afraid of criticism! If you can take a compliment but not a critique, you shouldn't be on an internet forum!
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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted June 06, 2011 10:52 PM

To be more prosaic about it, the Sanctuary (Nagas / Fortress successor) would be a great target for the first additional race since assets are already available (and being developed) for it. Since the H6 Sanctuary has no classic Fortress creatures, which disappointed everybody , would be nice to include the Basilisk and animate the Lizardman if a H5 iteration is made.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 06, 2011 11:14 PM

already available? like what? 2 or 3 creatures maybe?

didn't you work on tales of karador?

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted June 06, 2011 11:19 PM

It's more than zero creatures.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 06, 2011 11:22 PM

it's less than 21
personnally, I'm working on already made factions for now.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted June 06, 2011 11:45 PM

Well, I don't consider the Nexus or Oblivion or Conflux new factions in the same sense as the Fortress or Stronghold were new.
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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted June 07, 2011 12:51 AM
Edited by Quantomas at 00:54, 07 Jun 2011.

Quote:
Naturally, it's pretty hard to provide a likeness to one's imagination, let alone from a quick scan of gooooogle images. It would help if I was an excellent artist myself, but I'm quite simply not, and so I thought it might be useful to provide some approximations for inspiration.

The point I wanted to make is that there is a healthy competition in the video games industry to produce top notch artwork. The reason is that there is a fierce competition for the top talent, and that it has proven over and over again that the companies who showcase themselves best fare better.

What I mean is that we as a small independent community (perceived as a stigma) must do our best in respect of the quality of the artwork we showcase. It doesn't matter if the odd distractors post something odd, because this happens nearly everywhere, but if the main actors go and post pathetic stuff, people will have serious doubts whether we are up to the task. This is particularly important if we want to attract artists.

For example, imagine that by chance a young and upcoming artist visits our forum, sees that there is an Eternal Essence - new factions thread which looks promising and next comes about some ugly collection of pictures. Most likely he will just conclude that his talent would be wasted here. It's good that you cleared this space.

What I rather would suggest is that you have a look at the artwork of companies that are top grade. Maybe some folks around here can point you to excellent sources. Ubisoft is actually fairly good at this. It is an entirely different story if we have references to excellent artwork and discuss what elements suit us.

It would probably work out best, if we have excellent samples, and then you can point out, that you wish for a creature to use this armour, that stance, this skin, these claws, that head and so on.

Anyway, the other point that I think important is that people should work on the stuff they are best at.

In Eternal Essence we can take a story-centric approach. If we start to work on the campaigns, define the events, roles, factions, culture and lore the other things will fall into place. IMHO it isn't all that important at the moment how the individual creatures look in the end, we don't take the artwork/visual approach. Instead, if we consequently refine our vision of the story, the actors, the factions and creatures, the affinity to the essence, the skills, how they relate to the culture and lore, in what places the actors live, we will end up with a fairly accurate vision how a creature should turn out. It will then be just a question of the artistic talent to make this last step reality, but this is indeed at the very end of the process. Tolkien had the vision, Jackson chiefly reenacted it for the big screen.

What I wish you to work on would be the story, culture and lore of the faction and campaign you envision. You can share your thoughts whenever you like and we will give you feedback.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 07, 2011 12:59 AM

honestly, there are like one hundred similar threads on the altar of wishes or wog forums.


well, I have a practical question. how am I supposed to test my faction if it doesn't replace an existing one??

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted June 07, 2011 02:12 AM

Quote:
honestly, there are like one hundred similar threads on the altar of wishes or wog forums.

But hardly anyone that produced a campaign under my guidance. This here is special and will do exactly that, hopefully.

Quote:
well, I have a practical question. how am I supposed to test my faction if it doesn't replace an existing one??

I can't do much on this front before we have the mechanism to load new towns/factions.

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TheBaron
TheBaron


Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
posted June 07, 2011 06:14 AM
Edited by TheBaron at 08:30, 07 Jun 2011.

Alright people, I'm going to try and work on some characters and hope that they're not too clich้. Quantomas works on the concept and programming and it looks like I'm going to be working on the story.

@ Cepheus. I may be biased towards my own creation (OK, I definitely am) but my main opposition to the sanctuary idea is that we're not even sure where ubihole is taking it, and we won't be until h6 and its expansions have been completed both by the developers and the players, and that could be some time away. Secondly, we're creating something unique for this particular story and expansion. Yes we're building on an existing world, but a fan project that just takes an existing creature framework sideways is hardly original, neither is it a great indictment of the creative talent we have on these forums. I guess my criticism of building on existing factions is a similar one to Q's criticism of my images - that we would be letting ourselves down by putting our work in someone else's pigeon-hole. Indeed, we would be promoting someone else's work, rather than our own imaginations.

Quantomas has provided us with an inspiring design philosophy and an ingenious and intelligent AI, his skills as a programmer have translated well into a systematic expression of his idea and his imagined end point. My expression is much more higgledee-piggledee, I have a tendency to tangentalise so it's hard for me to stay on track. That being said, I have noticed that there has been a difference from what Q envisions and what the public understands. People are having a problem conceptualising in game how his grand plans are going to play out, how they will look, what the game will be. Through our discussion here and on the other EE pages, we are going to flesh out this concept and make it real. This happens when we put ideas out there and they are clarified, criticised, refined, rejected, reworded and rewarded. We need everyone to talk about it as much as we can, so we can all get a working concept of what this project is and where it's going.

I'll set myself a task list/work-tree as well. Please feel free to add to this or comment if you think that I'm heading in the wrong direction (/could go in a better direction) or if you think something I'm writing is just plain BS.

EDIT: I've now moved the task list to the top of the page.

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TheBaron
TheBaron


Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
posted June 07, 2011 08:11 AM
Edited by TheBaron at 08:52, 07 Jun 2011.

By the way I'm not saying I'm going to do all these things, I'm saying that these are things that will need to be done at some stage. I can do my best at creating a good narrative and some cool characters, but I think that's just about it.

IDEA! Quantomas, you were mentioning that you would like a campaign map that has distinct territories that are conquered and moved through. This reminds me of some old games (the only things I play) that have a separate war-game element. One of my favorites was Suikoden II for the playstation. All though it was a turn based rpg like final fantasy, at points major battles would occur and the player would be put in control of war units on a tile map. These units represented characters that had been acquired or killed (and therefore would not be in the next war-game) during the playing through of the story.

This could fit in very nicely with your desire for a territorial world map (perhaps as a separate world war-game/minigame). Imagine that the heroes the player finishes a map with become units that players pit against the forces of other territories on the world map! Enabling the battle for Ashan to be played out on an even larger scale! Boni etc being the outcomes of a success.

Admittedly this means the design of a whole new game that remembers the outcome of individual scenarios, but I think it's an awesome idea, and one of the funnest aspects of many strategy game campaigns.

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted June 07, 2011 10:53 AM

Quote:
Alright people, I'm going to try and work on some characters and hope that they're not too clich้. Quantomas works on the concept and programming and it looks like I'm going to be working on the story.

@ Cepheus. I may be biased towards my own creation (OK, I definitely am) but my main opposition to the sanctuary idea is that we're not even sure where ubihole is taking it, and we won't be until h6 and its expansions have been completed both by the developers and the players, and that could be some time away. Secondly, we're creating something unique for this particular story and expansion. Yes we're building on an existing world, but a fan project that just takes an existing creature framework sideways is hardly original, neither is it a great indictment of the creative talent we have on these forums. I guess my criticism of building on existing factions is a similar one to Q's criticism of my images - that we would be letting ourselves down by putting our work in someone else's pigeon-hole. Indeed, we would be promoting someone else's work, rather than our own imaginations.

Quantomas has provided us with an inspiring design philosophy and an ingenious and intelligent AI, his skills as a programmer have translated well into a systematic expression of his idea and his imagined end point. My expression is much more higgledee-piggledee, I have a tendency to tangentalise so it's hard for me to stay on track. That being said, I have noticed that there has been a difference from what Q envisions and what the public understands. People are having a problem conceptualising in game how his grand plans are going to play out, how they will look, what the game will be. Through our discussion here and on the other EE pages, we are going to flesh out this concept and make it real. This happens when we put ideas out there and they are clarified, criticised, refined, rejected, reworded and rewarded. We need everyone to talk about it as much as we can, so we can all get a working concept of what this project is and where it's going.

I'll set myself a task list/work-tree as well. Please feel free to add to this or comment if you think that I'm heading in the wrong direction (/could go in a better direction) or if you think something I'm writing is just plain BS.

EDIT: I've now moved the task list to the top of the page.


You are on the right track, at least from my point of view. Other thoughts? Cepheus? I read your suggestions, they are brilliant, but more importantly I believe we will be able to align all our ideas eventually.

Yes, we need to find a way how the heroes can become more important characters. With an open non-linear campaign, we need to look for a better approach than carrying over the stats from the last mission. I am thinking along the line of real boni from a mission, things that adapt the rules, impact the story and so on.

Feel free, to come up with ideas. I will check them out and think a bit about how it affects the overall concept. We indeed should refine our vision and align our conceptualization of what it will be. Very good approach.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted June 07, 2011 11:42 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 11:45, 07 Jun 2011.

@Cepheus: can you confirm already it is possible to extract assets from H6 and import them in H5? (using archangel?)

@Others:

I think with regards to new factions it is important to mention that H5 can have only one skill system at the same time and any balance discussion related to EE project is dependant on the chosen skill system. This means that if more than one faction is imported they will all have to choose the same skill system and a certain person with interest in all factions will have to go through the painful process of implementing all skill trees in the same skills.xdb. Of course I'm biased towards the RPE skill system but I will try to provide an unbiased pros and cons list, comparing the implementation of either H5TOE or RPE skill systems:

H5TOE
-Every faction needs new racial, so new skills need to be programmed and icons made.
-Every faction can have only one class (duh)
-Skills.xdb is very chaotic and unbalanced, H5 Tournament edition can help a lot however.
-Faction maker has much freedom creating the skill tree, but will have difficulties balancing against other factions and convincing others with the design.
-In game skill wheel already exists

RPE
-new racial not necessary, but of course fun
-possibility for might/magic and balanced classes (duh)
-possibility for making racial skills work for different factions
-skills.xdb is very symmetrical and much easier to copy/paste
-faction maker has less freedom creating the skill tree, but will encounter very few difficulties with balance because 30 pages of discussion have already taken care of most issues.
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