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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted July 11, 2011 10:39 PM |
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It seems like they forgot to rebalance the creature stats when they got rid of attack and defense skills for creatures.
In previous Heroes games, high level creatures will do 150% to 200% damage to low level creatures while taking 70% to 50% damage due to their high attack and defense skills. Now that they no longer have attack and defense, their hit points and damage should be adjusted accordingly.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 11, 2011 11:46 PM |
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I think external dwelling will boost both your castles so it will work as if you had like 4 "normal" castles. With such numbers, few champions more will not be any threat at all.
Do you know this, because I'm pretty sure the creature pool idea is that they all add *once* to the pool - i.e. the dwelling does not increase growth in your castles as such, they just add their own growth to the pool, so that 2 castles + 1 dwelling = tripple growth.
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted July 12, 2011 08:58 AM |
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Quote:
It seems like they forgot to rebalance the creature stats when they got rid of attack and defense skills for creatures.
In previous Heroes games, high level creatures will do 150% to 200% damage to low level creatures while taking 70% to 50% damage due to their high attack and defense skills. Now that they no longer have attack and defense, their hit points and damage should be adjusted accordingly.
Attack and Defense values were used in previous HMM games because of the spells - defense value decreases HP only in numbers while the creature stays strong on the battlefield in hand-to-hand combat. I will use the H4 statistics because it is easier for me to calculate at the moment: Bone Dragon has 275 HP with 30 defense which is actually 275*30/10 HP=825 HP compared to level 1 creature (or lets take H3 Archangel 250 HP with 33 defense which is 425 HP compared to level 1 creature with 5 defense.
So using defense to make HP look like it is lower than it is actually, is a good move: offensive spells for 300 damage will kill 1 champion or 30 level 1 units, instead of using the real HP values without defense because you have to increase spell damage and still kill one champion but two-three times more low level units.
I dont know how the damage reduction works at the moment and if it really works so I cant say what is the ratio between tiers in H6.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 12, 2011 09:21 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 09:23, 12 Jul 2011.
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It's nothing like that and actually never was. More Defense is not equal to more HP but to the static modifier which is taken into account when the given creature is attacked by another one which has X Attack (which can be higher or lower than the said creature's Defense) so the damage dealt can be calculated. There was no reduction whatsoever against spells until Heroes V - except for the various types of Golems - and they dealt their "maximum" damage every time. In Heroes VI every creature has Magic Defense which reduces the damage against all kinds of attacks which are labeled as "Magic" and the Champions usually perform almost as well as an Iron Golem in this regard. Add the overall impotence of all direct-damage spells cast by the hero and you have a very sad picture.
Edit: I'd delete bankarbunkaren's spam posy by the way, it messes the whole page.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2011 09:39 AM |
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It's a bit different.
1) creatures all have an inherent attack value of 0 (for their Might or Magic attack). The hero stat, either Might or Magic Power, is modifying that into a damage percentage plus, as was the case before. The only difference is now, that the modifications isn't linear.
2) Creatures do have a Might and a Magic defense Value. A celestial has currently a Might defense value of 40. A Wanizame has one of 7. The Phoenix has a magic defense value of 42.
This is modified with the respective hero value. A Knight with Might Defense 20 will give his Celestials a Defense value of 60, as we know it from the past.
This is compared with the attack value of the attacking unit.
However, the difference is made into a percentage of damage reduction, in a non-linear way, so that the reduction can never reach 100%, no matter the amount of difference.
That means, that even with Champion creatures and heroes it will be difficult to obtain a damage PLUS without any abilities.
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted July 12, 2011 11:25 AM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 12 Jul 2011. |
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The mechanics of the game has shifted more in favor of mid and lower creatures.
In previous Heroes games, a hero's attack skill benefited higher level creatures more while a hero's defense skill benefited lower level creatures more. That's because the bonus damage from having a higher attack is greater than the damage reduction from having a higher defense. For example, in Heroes 1 and 2, having a higher attack gives +10% damage while having a higher defense gives a 5% damage reduction, and in Heroes 3, it was 5% and 2.5%. Since level 7 creatures have higher attack than the defense of 90% of the creatures in the game, any additional attack they gain from the hero will yield +5% damage against most creatures they fight. On the other hand, since level 7 creatures also have higher defense than the attack of most creatures, any bonus defense they get will reduce damage by 2.5% against most creatures that attack them. It's just the opposite for lower level creatures. For example, a goblin has a lower attack than the defense of most creatures so any attack they gain from the hero will only yield a 2.5% damage increase against most creatures. Since the goblin also has a lower defense than the attack of most creatures, any additional defense they gain will reduce damage by 5% against most creatures.
In Heroes 6, a hero's attack benefits all creatures equally while a hero's defense benefits lower and mid level creatures more. For example, increasing defense from 5 to 15 gives an additional 18% damage reduction, increasing defense from 15 to 25 gives an additional 14% damage reduction, increasing defense from 25 to 35 gives a 10% damage reduction. Basically, core units gain the most damage reduction from a hero's defense while champions gain the least damage reduction.
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odium
Known Hero
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posted July 12, 2011 11:48 AM |
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Edited by odium at 12:03, 12 Jul 2011.
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Yeah, I initially thought of the system as being static. But it actually remains dynamic only that from the other angle. Before, the damage of the attacker was variable. Right now the damage of the attacker is the same no matter which creature is attacked. The dynamic part comes into play when the defender reduces part of the damage. Higher defense creatures will receive less damage (they have a higher % value which is resisted). What still has to be addressed is the ratio between damage and hp. Right now all creatures are impotent, even the cores (they are a bit lucky since they usually come in high numbers and they mask a bit this impotence).
Quote:
In Heroes 6, a hero's attack benefits all creatures equally while a hero's defense benefits lower and mid level creatures more. For example, increasing defense from 5 to 15 gives an additional 18% damage reduction, increasing defense from 15 to 25 gives an additional 14% damage reduction, increasing defense from 25 to 35 gives a 10% damage reduction. Basically, core units gain the most damage reduction from a hero's defense while champions gain the least damage reduction.
Which is not bad if you think about it. As JJ said it will no longer be possible to reach insanely high damage reduction levels. Champions already have a pretty high % reduction, I don't want them to become immune to damage.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 12, 2011 11:59 AM |
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Quote:
The mechanics of the game has shifted more in favor of mid and lower creatures.
In previous Heroes games, a hero's attack skill benefited higher level creatures more while a hero's defense skill benefited lower level creatures more. That's because the bonus damage from having a higher attack is greater than the damage reduction from having a higher defense.
That's totally wrong!
The more defense a unit has, the less the hero's defense will impact it and the more a unit has attack, the more the hero's attack will impact it.
If you check the topic I made : http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=35738
A unit with 80 Atk would gain more from a hero with 20 Atk (+129%) than a unit with 0 Atk (+57.74%)
This is the damage bonus from Attack evolution :
And this is the damage absorption bonus from Defense evolution :
A unit with 0 Defense will gain more from a Hero with 20 Defense (+37%) than a unit with 80 Defense (+5%)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 12, 2011 12:01 PM |
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Quote:
What still has to be addressed is the ratio between damage and hp. Right now all creatures are impotent, even the cores (they are a bit lucky since they usually come in high numbers and they mask a bit this impotence).
Yes, I agree very much with this, all creatures perform very badly in combat if one considers the effective damage output of each creature compared to the average output of each creature. When an Elite only does effective damage much less than the HP of a core, something is off.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2011 12:03 PM |
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Which is deliberate design, because they want to have longer battles, in which heroes have more opportunities to act, as opposed to, "I go first with my Emeralds/What'stheirname, have a lucky hit and waste half your army, before you even move".
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2011 12:06 PM |
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Quote:
and the more a unit has attack, the more the hero's attack will impact it.
If you check the topic I made : http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=35738
A unit with 80 Atk would gain more from a hero with 20 Atk (+129%) than a unit with 0 Atk (+57.74%)
This is the damage bonus from Attack evolution :
Except that all units have attack 0 in H6. 
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odium
Known Hero
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posted July 12, 2011 12:17 PM |
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Which is deliberate design, because they want to have longer battles, in which heroes have more opportunities to act, as opposed to, "I go first with my Emeralds/What'stheirname, have a lucky hit and waste half your army, before you even move".
For sure people that want to play multiplayer will seriously disagree with this design principle. TBS is already slow in multiplayer, no need to make it even slower. In a multiplayer match you usually creep like mad for many hours in order to have one final fight against the opponent. This design increases the length of the creeping part much more than you benefit from the increased length of the final battle.
If they think at the other type of players, that play the game for fun, usually in single player, well I think that they will get bored too. I believe these are the type of players that want to feel that they are having success, conquering other castles, taking dragon utopias. If they have to fight 30 minutes with a horde of praetorians, I doubt that they will be so enthusiastic anymore.
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted July 12, 2011 12:39 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Which is deliberate design, because they want to have longer battles, in which heroes have more opportunities to act, as opposed to, "I go first with my Emeralds/What'stheirname, have a lucky hit and waste half your army, before you even move".
For sure people that want to play multiplayer will seriously disagree with this design principle. TBS is already slow in multiplayer, no need to make it even slower. In a multiplayer match you usually creep like mad for many hours in order to have one final fight against the opponent. This design increases the length of the creeping part much more than you benefit from the increased length of the final battle.
If they think at the other type of players, that play the game for fun, usually in single player, well I think that they will get bored too. I believe these are the type of players that want to feel that they are having success, conquering other castles, taking dragon utopias. If they have to fight 30 minutes with a horde of praetorians, I doubt that they will be so enthusiastic anymore.
Actually as a big fan of multiplayer I am fully in support of the new shift to longer battles & more durable creatures. IMO the only balancing that apparently needs to take place are creature growths and some of the elite/champion effectiveness.
The amount of time spent in that big multiplayer battle is short compared to the time spent on the adventure map leading up to the battle. I prefer that big battle to be more strategic and less luck based. The example given of the Emerald Dragon going first and laying waste to 1/2 an army is perfect - it nearly decides the battle in the first 5 seconds. Few multiplayer fans would want that.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 12, 2011 12:40 PM |
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Quote:
Which is deliberate design, because they want to have longer battles, in which heroes have more opportunities to act, as opposed to, "I go first with my Emeralds/What'stheirname, have a lucky hit and waste half your army, before you even move".
Undoubtedly. Sad thing is they've removed a major tactical factor of the game. Now it is no longer that much a question of positioning your units correctly and timing their turns so that you can turn the battle in your favor, it's all ending in a 10-turn brawl in the end anyway.
Sure, I'm all for negating one-turn victories where one part never even gets to act due to low initiative of units, but I think they've taken it way too far in the other direction - battles feel decidedly turtleish, and almost the only thing it comes down to in the end is who has the better healing capacity.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 12, 2011 12:41 PM |
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Exactly. Going rampage with lucky crystal dragons was fun, but not exactly for those on the other side of the screen. I was pissed a lot of time that I couldn't even move my stack of, say, Lizard Riders before it was already dead...
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 12, 2011 12:46 PM |
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But somehow one could try to find an intermediate - it seems like they've gone from one extreme to the other.
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odium
Known Hero
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posted July 12, 2011 12:54 PM |
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Edited by odium at 14:12, 12 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
The example given of the Emerald Dragon going first and laying waste to 1/2 an army is perfect - it nearly decides the battle in the first 5 seconds. Few multiplayer fans would want that.
The example with the Emerald Dragon was chosen intentionally because it's one of the unbalanced things of Heroes 5. IMO pointing to an extreme case and generalizing to the whole design principle of hp/damage from H5 is wrong. Of course nobody wants fights where Emeralds kill everything in the beginning but also nobody wants to sit and fight core creeps for hours. It was implied that long is automatically more strategical, this is a wrong assumption. At the moment H6 is no more strategical than H5 just longer and more boring.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 12, 2011 12:55 PM |
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Except that all units have attack 0 in H6.
I know but it was more for the example as it's easier to spot the values for 0 and 20 rather than 1 and 21 ^^
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 12, 2011 01:23 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Except that all units have attack 0 in H6.
I know but it was more for the example as it's easier to spot the values for 0 and 20 rather than 1 and 21 ^^
But still, when you wrote:
Quote:
A unit with 80 Atk would gain more from a hero with 20 Atk (+129%) than a unit with 0 Atk (+57.74%)
you are wrong, because there is no such thing as a unit with 80 Atk, as units no longer have an attack score. So I still think what Vicheron wrote is true.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 12, 2011 02:06 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 12 Jul 2011. |
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Some words on the original subject of the topic...
So I did some testing (on Normal, shouldn't be very different on Hard) with different combos during the first few weeks and my overall impression is as follows:
Whether or not you'll go for Elites and Champion during week one and where will be the focus depends mainly on the faction. I encounter the bloody bug which reduces the Champion growth to 1 for every week after week 2 way too often to make up my mind what should be the optimal approach, but still some things begin to crystallize.
Necropolis - going for quick Fate Spinners is hard, too damaging economy-wise and it doesn't seem to bring many benefits. On the other hand investing in 2 or 3 Cores and 1 Elite (preferably Vampires) + working for better daily income during week 1 looks like pretty good investment. With some luck and intensive creeping you can have the Fate Spinners by the end of week 2 but it seems more likely that they will appear during week 3. From the Cores, the Ghosts are obligatory, the choice between Ghouls and Skeletons depends on the player's approach - both creatures have their uses.
Stronghold - I'm still sticking to my initial conclusion that the Cyclops is the strongest Champion at the moment and thus getting it as soon as possible helps a lot. However, I'm not sure if Mighty Slam should work absolutely every time when the Cyclops gets an action (including when it receives positive morale!!!) or this is a bug. Without the said ability the creature's effectiveness is reduced somewhat but it remains hell of an obstacle on the battlefield in terms of durability. During week 2 the Maulers and the Harpies are a must, the Goblins not so much but those Goblins that you already have through the starting hero/the hero hired from the Tavern can be put to good use if split into 2-3 stacks and using their traps. From the Elites - Centaurs during week 1 is a good investment, the Dreamweavers to some extent as well. The Jaguar Warriors have a non-working special so at the moment they are not a priority.
Inferno - the Pit Fiends are excellent for creeping and rushing to get them before the end of week 1 could pay back. Still, it seems better if you get all the Cores or 2 Cores and one of the Elites (preferably Tormentor) or eventually 3 Cores + 1 Elite (which is rather hard) in week one and Pit Fiends in week 2. The problem is that I simply can't get proper populations of Pit Fiends after week 2 to see if it really makes sense to have them early - for some reason during another game the said bug did not manifest itself and I managed to gather about 20 Pit Lords until month 3 but there was only 1 AI on the said map which behaved like it wasn't there.
Sanctuary - the Kirins are... problematic. Getting them early does not seem to help much but on the other hand I haven't tested them extensively yet. Sanctuary however can clear its surroundings easily with Kappas and Pseudo-Medusas  so these two naturally appear first. From the Elites - fast Kenseis and Snow Maidens definitely pays back. The Shark Guards are useful only in long battles and don't really help during the initial phase but still building their dwelling so their population can begin to grow is part of the to-do list.
Haven - its Cores REALLY work together and its Elites apart which are not the Radiant Glory REALLY can't do sh*t so the conclusion comes naturally - Cores first, then everything else. Going for early Celestials doesn't seem to pay back - the Sisters/Vestals do far better job in healing the friendlies and the only good thing about Haven's Champion is its durability.
In general however, the upper tiers visibly suffer from damage deficiency against the Cores and some of them - from lack of general usefulness (let me use this opportunity to remind you that the Breeder SUCKS!!!). If you don't go for quick Elites and/or Champions, they just can't catch up and even if you do, they still remain more of a support than actual fighting force.
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