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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: H6 - Stats and calculations
Thread: H6 - Stats and calculations This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted July 06, 2011 12:58 PM
Edited by Nelgirith at 12:59, 06 Jul 2011.

I haven't tested it but, technically, it should be possible unless there's some hard cap on damage absorption.

A Celestial has 57% damage absorption, if the tooltip is right, Stone skin adds 45% damage absorption, so that would already make 102% Without counting the hero's defense, cover bonus and the fact that the unit can defend during its turn.

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted July 06, 2011 01:46 PM

Doesn't stone skin's 45% increase the current absorption % and not simply added, ie. seraph with 57% and stone skin would have 84% (57% x 1.48) damage absorption?

I can't see a creature having 100% might and magic defense otherwise it would never die! Crazy to think about this though....

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conqr
conqr


Adventuring Hero
posted July 08, 2011 03:42 PM

Quote:
Doesn't stone skin's 45% increase the current absorption % and not simply added, ie. seraph with 57% and stone skin would have 84% (57% x 1.48) damage absorption?


I have not tested it throughly, but i belive it adds the defense point that accounts for that certain percentage to the creatures defense points. This way it does not bypasses the conversion rate.

In this case seraph has 57% or 40 defense points, stone skin adds 27 defense points (wich would resoult in a 45% increase from zero defense points) making 67 total, and that 67 defense points translates into about 72% defense percentage.
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solariusyang
solariusyang

Tavern Dweller
posted July 09, 2011 07:39 AM

This is what i've read rom the formula provided by evilp. In HOMM6 the damage is calculated like this:
Creature might power X creature number X modifier of attacking hero x modifier of defending hero and target defense.
If this is the case, I¡¯ve observed some imbalance in this formula.

First, it¡¯s not like previous HOMM game, for example HOMM3, which hero attack value can be completely canceled by hero defense value. Fill in some number into the current formula, then raise the attacker¡¯s attack and defender¡¯s defense by the same amount, then repeat again and again.

We see the final damage is increasing. That means when the hero¡¯s status grow, offense is favored over defense, a 100 attack 0 defense hero¡¯s army will beat a 0 attack 100 defense hero¡¯s same army for good. This shouldn¡¯t be the case from my point of view. People favor crushing enemies easily over being unable to die (and do litte damage back), there¡¯s no doubt about it. Because of that the system should be biased towards defense, in order to balance out the natural tendency, or to the very least make them cancel out each other. That¡¯s why we see lvl3 offense offer 15% damage increase while defense offer 30% damage reduction in HOMM5, and even a bonus that big doesn¡¯t change the fact many players still go for the offense tree. Defensive faction players already suffer from lengthy play time (lower damage high defense = battle of attrition) , and they get denied the pleasure of striking down enemy like cutting weed, that's bad enough. Now the more they grow, the less durable when they face a offensive hero with attack status of the same value as their defense. So tell me why should i play a defensively or develop a hero defensively when there's no gain but all losses?

Secondly, the creature¡¯s attack power and defense power doesn¡¯t balance out. Take Praetorian for example. It has might power of 3 and might defense of 10. That¡¯s a total of 13 point of status. What will happen when it fight against a creature that has might power 6 and might defense 7 (also a total status of 13)? It will be a slaughter. Praetorian can only do half the damage of the enemy, as might power is a multiply factor in the formula. What it gains is 3 points of defense, which contributes about 10% durability to the unit. Half the damage and 10% tougher, that¡¯s the situation defensive units in lower tie face. The situation gets better but not much when the status rises. 10 points of defense is not that bad when compared to 10 points of might, but still weaker. Creature might is a multiply factor while defense is a modifier which is ineffective when the number is small. The effectiveness of creatures¡¯ might is far greater than defense (especially in lower tie) within the scope of the game.

I wish something could be done to the formula, as shifting the status of units won¡¯t change the imbalance of system.
Just my two cents.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted July 09, 2011 10:38 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 10:40, 09 Jul 2011.

Quote:
That¡¯s why we see lvl3 offense offer 15% damage increase while defense offer 30% damage reduction in HOMM5, and even a bonus that big doesn¡¯t change the fact many players still go for the offense tree. Defensive faction players already suffer from lengthy play time (lower damage high defense = battle of attrition) , and they get denied the pleasure of striking down enemy like cutting weed, that's bad enough.
What are you talking about? The Heroes V "defensive" factions and especially Sylvan were way ahead of the "offensive" ones after the first few weeks (not counting Stronghold which by the way were obsessed with damage-reduction themselves even though their description says the opposite). The whole "30% Defense, 15% Attack" was one of the many balancing issues of the game. I personally hate to launch attacks against some unbreakable wall while some archers and mages from the other side comfortably slaughter my army without breaking a sweat. That's lame and not how the balance should be built. Offense and defense should be equally viable options depending only on the situation and the player's style.

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solariusyang
solariusyang

Tavern Dweller
posted July 09, 2011 11:33 AM

It's strange that while I'm talking about the comparison of a skill to another skill£¬ you are complaining you got shot up by a "should be defensive" race.

First, my post is about the formula, about what the status effectiveness curve grows and how should the attack and defense balance. It's not about a certain race expand faster and slaughter your army with arrows from afar. If your point is: a well placed tactic (meat shield + shooter dps) wracks your assultive army so my observation about game mechanism is invalid, then I¡¯m sorry Ireally can't see where your logical connection is.

Second, reasons behind getting beaten by "should be defensive" race could be many. Like certain race, certain units, certain skills, certain magic or something else is imbalanced, or you just haven't find the right way to break the enemy's formation yet. Get shot up by point-ears or some units are stupidly tough to kill is more relavent to those units instead of the formula I was talking about (those tree men are damn tough, I know). What I'm talking about is the big picture, not certain race or certain units.

I totally agree with your last sentance though. But if you read my post carefully you will see that under current formula offense is a better option than defense. it allows bigger damage number, shorter combat time and well, an edge against army led by a more defensive hero with same total status.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted July 09, 2011 01:04 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 13:05, 09 Jul 2011.

The majority of your post makes no sense under the premise that we already have a situation where the battle can't be won or lost during the first 1-2 rounds and where relatively few units are self-sufficient - especially as far as the "defensive" factions are concerned. This part is particularly flawed:
Quote:
Take Praetorian for example. It has might power of 3 and might defense of 10. That¡¯s a total of 13 point of status. What will happen when it fight against a creature that has might power 6 and might defense 7 (also a total status of 13)? It will be a slaughter. Praetorian can only do half the damage of the enemy, as might power is a multiply factor in the formula. What it gains is 3 points of defense, which contributes about 10% durability to the unit. Half the damage and 10% tougher, that¡¯s the situation defensive units in lower tie face. The situation gets better but not much when the status rises. 10 points of defense is not that bad when compared to 10 points of might, but still weaker.
The Praetorian is no fighter that is supposed to deal damage (although under certain circumstances it CAN do it pretty well) but to reduce the damage that the other creatures suffer - i.e. it's sort of an enhanced meat shield. You don't win battles directly because of him but because of the creatures that he managed to defend and which in turn managed to compensate for his very low damage output - in the end they wouldn't be able to be so effective without the Praetorian around. The thing is that you can't simply isolate "defensive" and "offensive" stats, skills, general behaviour from certain faction and its creature because this will make any further analysis limited at best. All these are interconnected and if you focus only on one aspect, you are very likely to mess up the others.

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vicheron
vicheron


Known Hero
posted July 09, 2011 03:03 PM
Edited by vicheron at 15:05, 09 Jul 2011.

Quote:
Quote:
before, creatures attack and defense were relative to other creatures defense and attack. but now, it seems that the values are absolute.


Well, it still is the case.

Instead of having a creature's attack value, it's directly using its damage which is increased by the Hero's attack.
This damage value is then decreased by the opponent's absorption which is calculated the same way the attack bonus is, but based on defense.
The only real difference is that there's not a linear progression of Attack to damage or Defense to damage reduction ratio.

In previous Heroes, it was calculated like (A-B)*X while in H6, it's calaculated like A*X - B*Y which is quite similar except that they can control the way Attack impacts on damage and the way defense impacts on absorption while in previous Heroes, it was plain linear.



On another point, I'm surprised that the hero's Magic Attack doesn't affect his spell damage. Right now, it's only a hero's level that's boosting his spells damage.


But in previous Heroes, having higher attack than defense was not the same has having higher defense than attack. So it was like this; if A>B then (A-B)*X, if B>A then (B-A)*Y.

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mcgriffin
mcgriffin

Tavern Dweller
posted September 09, 2011 04:53 AM
Edited by mcgriffin at 04:55, 09 Sep 2011.

I've been lurking in the forum for a long time. This is my first post.

I can't help feeling that this damage formula greatly REDUCES the depth of combats. Denote HA=Hero Attack, HD=Hero Defense, CA=Creature Attack, CD=Creature Defense.

In H3, damage multiplier = F(HA+CA-HD-CD)
In H6, damage multiplier = F1(HA) x F2(HD+CD)

What does this mean in H6 compared to H3?
Result 1: Keeping all other parameters unchanged, 1 point HA (e.g., might) increase will uniformly increase the damage of all your might creatures, regardless of their species, to all enemy creatures.
Result 2: To a certain target creature, the damage output ratio of two of your troops is fixed, which determined by their numbers and individual damage range, and uncorrelated to either your HA or the enemy HD.

I'll elaborate result 2 a bit more. In H3, suppose you have 1 Archangel and 100 Pikemen. When fighting a neutral troop, due to high attack of the angel, the 1 Archangel may have higher damage output than the 100 pikemen. On the other hand, when facing an enemy hero, the attack-defense difference isn't that huge, and 100 pikemen may have higher damage than the angel. In H6 this will never happen: the ratio of the damage of archangel over that of the pikemen is the same, regardless of what creature they are facing and the energy hero defense, hence making one species of creature superior to another in all cases. Isn't it a bit boring? Also contrary to intuition, doesn't that make the balancing more difficult?

Just my 2 cents.
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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 09, 2011 09:13 AM

mcgriffin:

Do you mean that....

A fight between 5 Attack 5 Def barbarian and 5A, 5D Knight is not the same as a fight between
20A 20D barb and 20A, 20D knight ?
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Gweret
Gweret


Adventuring Hero
posted September 09, 2011 09:18 AM
Edited by Gweret at 09:25, 09 Sep 2011.

Quote:
In H6 this will never happen: the ratio of the damage of archangel over that of the pikemen is the same, regardless of what creature they are facing and the energy hero defense, hence making one species of creature superior to another in all cases. Isn't it a bit boring?

Creatures have different abilities and roles, they wont be superior in ALL cases. Only in might damage. Which does not mean much.






On calculations:
I'm not sure if all damage calculations are accurate for all cases:
I have tested rampage skill which adds +5might dmg to creature.

hero might attack was = 14
creature( upgrade harpy ) = 5-8 ( 7 avg )

I had around 70 of them, don't remember exact numbers.

Creature max damage was 777, after +5 ( rampage ) it jumped to 865.
which is +11% might damage increase.

According to the calculations it should be at least 12,5%. It would mean that some spell like +x abilities are counted a bit different.


Resilience needs boost, badly.

Does anyone know how good it is with max tear reputation on level 15, 20 and 30 ?
Without reputation it is only +3 to might defense and +3% to health.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 09, 2011 10:07 AM

That's +3 def and 3% hp per reputation level. So at lvl 2 reputation it gives +9/9%, pretty decent.
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Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 09, 2011 12:39 PM

It's beyond me how you didn't get any red star for this. It's a very informative post indeed
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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted September 20, 2011 08:53 AM

How much is a stat point of luck/morale worth? 1 point = 11% probability of occurring?

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Kitten
Kitten


Known Hero
Roar
posted September 20, 2011 07:28 PM

Quote:
How much is a stat point of luck/morale worth? 1 point = 11% probability of occurring?

A unit's morale caps at 100 so I would guess 1 morale = 1%.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 20, 2011 07:59 PM

Quote:
How much is a stat point of luck/morale worth? 1 point = 11% probability of occurring?
I think we discussed this in the other thread also, but 1 point of Luck/Morale is 1 % trigger chance. The skills in Luck/Morale add 11 points of the skill (or at least did in version 1.2 of the beta), which equivalates 11 % trigger chance.
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What will happen now?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 20, 2011 08:11 PM

Everytime I see this question I get depressed. So much for writing that FAQ.
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Gweret
Gweret


Adventuring Hero
posted September 20, 2011 08:54 PM

FAQ does not say anything that: 1 point put into Hero skill gives 11 points in morale or luck.
It only says that one point give 1% morale or luck.
This is different case.

Also if possible this topic could be attached. Looking just on a tooltip it is hard to estimate a influence of attack/defense on damage/reduction.


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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted September 21, 2011 08:10 AM

Elvin -> I read the FAQ diligently...but it doesn't make sense, is 1 point morale/luck equal to 1% trigger chance or 11% trigger chance, as Alci mentioned?

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Kitten
Kitten


Known Hero
Roar
posted September 21, 2011 01:06 PM

Quote:
Elvin -> I read the FAQ diligently...but it doesn't make sense, is 1 point morale/luck equal to 1% trigger chance or 11% trigger chance, as Alci mentioned?

1 morale/luck = 1% chance. Spending one point in those skills in your hero gives you 2 morale/luck.

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