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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: H6 - Stats and calculations
Thread: H6 - Stats and calculations This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
polaris
polaris


Promising
Known Hero
posted September 28, 2011 09:49 PM

It's a pretty minor change to the formulas, but still I wonder why they did it?

The old formulas were very simple:
When two units battled the one with higher attack or defense had a favorable result of X% times the difference of the attributes, where X% only depended on the particular game you were playing and whether the attacker or defender had the advantage.

It's no longer clear to me whether that's still the case or not, but reading some of the more mathematical replies it sounds like it won't be.

Essentially they removed an abstraction layer- we now only have the results of the formulas that A/D were previously inputs to. That sounds both harder to balance (more interdependence) and more complicated (formulas which can no longer be computed mentally and less transparency). I'm scratching my head trying to figure out where the benefit to these new formulas lie?

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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted September 28, 2011 10:54 PM

There is none.

It's just more complicated than the old one, without being superior in any regard.
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Gweret
Gweret


Adventuring Hero
posted September 28, 2011 11:19 PM

Quote:
It's no longer clear to me whether that's still the case or not, but reading some of the more mathematical replies it sounds like it won't be.

Attack and defense are independent.

The more attack you get the more dmg creature deal. With each new at bonus it gains damage faster.
The more defense you get the more dmg reduction creature have. With each defense bonus it gains damage reduction slower.

And that is it.

Difference is that. One champion will have hard time killing more than ~20 cores.

As for balance. Well currently you see by looking at creature base stats who is better (in stats) than the other. You don't have to subtract anything. Maybe it is easier to balance.


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 29, 2011 02:45 AM
Edited by Elvin at 03:22, 29 Sep 2011.

Some calculations I had made some time back.



Creature Might Damage (might based attack)=Creature Default Damage*(1+Hero Might Power/100)^2.5 (min-max)

Creature Might Damage with 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 attack. The below are the modifier by which you multiply the creature range:

1: (1 + 0.01)^2.5= 1.025 ~ 2.5% extra damage
5: (1 + 0.05)^2.5= 1.129 ~ 12.9%
10: 1.1^2.5= 1.269 ~ 26.9%
15: 1.15^2.5= 1.418 ~ 41.8%
20: 1.2^2.5= 1.577 ~ 57.7%

It's about half of the old heroes formula of 5% per attack.



Creature Might Resistance=1-1/(1+Creature Might Defense/100)^2.5*100 [%]

Let's assume the unit has 0 defense

1: 1-1/1.01^2.5 = 1-1/1.025 = 1-0.97% = 3%
5: 1-1/1.05^2.5 = 1-1/1.13 = 1-0.88 = 12%
10: 1-1/1.1^2.5 = 1-1/1.27 = 1-0.79 = 21%
15: 1-1/1.15^2.5 = 1-1/1.418 = 1-0.7 = 30%
20: 1-1/1.2^2.5 = 1-1/1.58 = 1-0.63 = 37%
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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted September 29, 2011 08:10 AM

From Elvin's calculations above, one can see that Damage increases exponentially as the creatures attack increases (attack) but damage reduction increases slightly less every time as the creatures defense increases (defense).


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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 29, 2011 09:52 AM

Quote:
From Elvin's calculations above, one can see that Damage increases exponentially as the creatures attack increases (attack) but damage reduction increases slightly less every time as the creatures defense increases (defense).



That could already be seen in the first post

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted September 29, 2011 10:54 AM
Edited by Warmonger at 10:55, 29 Sep 2011.

Quote:
From Elvin's calculations above, one can see that Damage increases exponentially as the creatures attack increases (attack) but damage reduction increases slightly less every time as the creatures defense increases (defense).



Well, otheriwse damage could be reduced to 0. It also is reduced exponentially, if one knows what it means .
If you compare damage increase with damage reduction for  a given difference, they will be pretty much equal.
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solariusyang
solariusyang

Tavern Dweller
posted September 29, 2011 03:29 PM

The problem is they grow differently, as my post has stated. attack hero's attack is a direct multiplier, while defense hero's defense + unit's defense -- which is a constant -- is a denominator. This means unless units defense also grows with hero's defense, the system is biased toward attack.

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Fraudatio
Fraudatio


Famous Hero
posted September 29, 2011 08:19 PM

Which is good, since we after all have to kill things to get the game going...

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted September 30, 2011 08:09 AM

Quote:
The problem is they grow differently, as my post has stated. attack hero's attack is a direct multiplier, while defense hero's defense + unit's defense -- which is a constant -- is a denominator. This means unless units defense also grows with hero's defense, the system is biased toward attack.


I disagree, you cna always get stronger and stronger attack, but it would be silly to get 100% defense, then nothing could kill you! Defense has to plateau out....

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted September 30, 2011 10:39 AM bonus applied by alcibiades on 09 Oct 2011.

Funny how the original post made it seem more complex than it actually is because it can be rewritten:

Dmg = Base x Atkmod / Defmod

where
Atkmod = (1+atk/100)^2.5
Defmod = (1+def/100)^2.5

and the normal attack & defence are made of hero + creature
and there are separate might and magic atk/def

and it seems all creatures now have an attack stat of ZERO! (like ThunderTitan said)

Get ready to know the exponential power of 2.5% tables!

Since I don't have that handy in my head, the modifiers can be roughly approximated by multiplying atk or def by 2.5% when the modifier is not too high.

====

Basic comparisons using above formulae:
atk of 10 vs def of 20 gives 0.805
atk of 20 vs def of 30 gives 0.819
atk of 30 vs def of 40 gives 0.831
So it's hard to see how this small difference means a significant bias to attack as the hero gets to higher levels?

Guess what?
If one used H5 formula but inserted 2.5% instead of 5%, one would get 0.800 in all 3 cases anyway!

====

I agree with Polaris & yasmiel: it would be good to know the designer's thoughts on changing the formula concept from H5 where the formual was already inverted when defence was higher than attack (apart from changing factor from 5% to 2.5%)...

because the game designers appears to have made things MORE COMPLICATED FOR NO GOOD REASON!
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polaris
polaris


Promising
Known Hero
posted October 02, 2011 10:00 AM

Quote:
Funny how the original post made it seem more complex than it actually is because it can be rewritten:

Dmg = Base x Atkmod / Defmod

where
Atkmod = (1+atk/100)^2.5
Defmod = (1+def/100)^2.5

and the normal attack & defence are made of hero + creature
and there are separate might and magic atk/def

and it seems all creatures now have an attack stat of ZERO! (like ThunderTitan said)


Thanks, this is the best explanation I've seen in this thread. (If you, dear reader, posted the same thing you might have written it even better, but I just had to see the formulas a few times before it made sense!)

First, I'm not sure about the person who said this means it's now "attack-biased". I went back to read your post and something is really wrong with my forums today because it the post was all scrambled with "-i" and other nonsense making it too difficult to read. Looking at the above formulas, the only way that attack seems to be favored is because units have starting defense values but not starting attack values, so you get more bang for your buck approaching 1.0 then having both sides defense favored.

Second, I take back a piece of what I said before because these formulas don't seem to be any more complicated than they were before they are merely presented as if they are more complicated than they are. (Like the quote says, the original post made it seem WAY more complex than it is... just post the formulas dude)

The change here appears to be that they are giving an even larger advantage when sides are not closely matched (2.5^X, where X is high) and the variables are smaller when the sides are closely matched (2.5^X, where X is low).

Not a great change in my opinion, but I guess it will make neutral creeping easier for high level heroes. (if that even counts as a positive change)

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 03, 2011 08:57 AM

@Polaris, thanks for the thanks because I had to re-read the long original post a number of times...but dunno what you meant by "written it even better" because my post was already getting a bit long

The exponential part makes it more complicated than H5's straight multiplication/division when doing calcs in one's head

There's no real significant atk or def bias...

Giving larger advantage when not closely matched?...right...who cares?

I now think it's a way of being able to display defence reduction in percentage on creatures' popups (maybe to make it easier for some to calculate during battles?)...but I don't count that as a necessary change when there are other stuff to focus on
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
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solariusyang
solariusyang

Tavern Dweller
posted October 08, 2011 09:51 AM

the formula is not strongly biased towards atk, the problem with me is they change the formula from none-biased to slightly atk biased for no obvious reason. As the old saying goes, attack is the best defense. Even without this slight bias towards atk I'll still choose attack everytime i've given the choice

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 08, 2011 11:30 AM

Have you seen the dmg H6 units do? Thank goodness there is a slight attack bias.. Besides extra attack always gave more effect than extra defense in comparison, in H6 the x% gained/reduced is roughly the same.
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solariusyang
solariusyang

Tavern Dweller
posted October 09, 2011 04:54 AM

The combat will be fastened as game progresses anyway, since 90% of the battle is going to be against natural creep, which doesn't grow in defensive ability as our hero grow in offensive ability.

The comparatively lengthy battle H6 presents only serve to discourage defensive play style even more. Why would someone make the already lengthy battle even more tedious, even if they are the winner in the end? We play the game to enjoy the fun, the fun vanquishes if for 10 turns both side can't deal a decisive blow to each other.

Actually giving units a real attack score instead of the power score they now have which act as the old damage attribute can solve both the low damage versus endurance problem and the attack biased problem. Why would they dismiss this attribute in the formula is simply beyond my comprehension

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 09, 2011 09:12 AM

solariusyang:

You'd be surprised. Many people love grind. They complain when they have nothing to "work towards" in FPS games, for example. Pulling off amazing feats or working on aim doesn't count, I guess.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 09, 2011 09:22 AM

I'm not sure, but isn't the (new?) system Attack biased because the larger your Attack score gets, the bigger your damage gain is, whereas the larger your Defence score gets, the lower your damage absorption gain is?

Of course, you can't separate the two things just like that, because obviously a large defence negates the opponents' large attack, but it does seem that the steapening slope of the Attack curve would be more tempting [at least against neutrals] than the flattening slope of the Defence curve when approaching large values.
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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted October 09, 2011 09:26 AM
Edited by Warmonger at 09:33, 09 Oct 2011.

No it's not. They are both equally exponential.

Sorry Alci, but you won't get 300% damage reduction no matter what

It seems that math causes trouble for some of you, so let me exaplain once again:
100% damage gain is equal to 50% damage reduction. The first one doubles damage, the other halves it. 2 x 0.5 = 1.
You may choose to do double damage to enemy or take half of damage from attacks and you still will be two times stronger than enemy thanks to modifiers.

Defense reduction grows exponentially. Moving from 50% to 60% (10% difference) reduction equals moving form 200% damage to 250% damage, which seems to be 50% difference. The important thing in defense is not the part of damage reduced, but the part of damage LEFT which scales proportionally to attack bonus for same difference. You can never go up to 100% damage reduction, as then you would take no damage at all.


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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 09, 2011 09:53 AM
Edited by alcibiades at 10:06, 09 Oct 2011.

Warmonger - what you say is true, as long as you fight again another hero. But when facing neutrals, when you get to very high values of defence, i.e. your Defence >>> their Attack, you don't really get a lot of extra value for your last defence point, because the extra points grants less than 2.5 % damage absorption, whereas an extra attack point will grant you more than 2.5 % extra damage is your Attack >>> their Defence.

But obviously, it's very situational which one is better.

EDIT > To add a bit of my oppinion it's important to say that looking on those numbers alone is insignificant to give the full picture. For instance, from H5 to H6 UbiHole change battlefield size and creature movement so that less creatures can cross battlefield in one turn. This is something that skews game towards attack (imo.) because it gives you more options for avoiding being subject to first hit and instead have yourself dealing first hit to the opponent, something that gives a huge favor for Attack, as dealing more damage will automatically reduce the damage you suffer yourself on retaliation and subsequent attacks, hence having an inherent defence bonus in the attack.

Ironically, this also puts more emphasis on range units, a problem that UbiHole solved by ... giving almost all ranged units Full Range?!? Really, UbiHole?
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