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| Thread: Outstanding balance issues |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 05, 2011 04:00 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 22:04, 05 Jul 2011.
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Outstanding balance issues
I am NOT posting anything in this shrine of chaos that is the official sub-forum dedicated to the beta - it's obvious that even if Ubihole have the time to read the feedback, they'll be overwhelmed by the huge and totally unrestricted mess currently reigning there. I guess the moderators either lie bleeding in some dark corner, watching helplessly this constant outburst of madness, or just can't do much. Either way, it's a lost cause to discuss anything there.
So, I therefore suggest to discuss the balance in this much more tidy (for the time being) place. By balance I mean everything related to the heroes and the factions which currently seems to be overpowered or useless and which thus needs revision. Everyone can post his impressions as long as he/she can back his opinion with arguments (please, no "Woohaa, this creature/spell/hero kicks ass, I love it, AWESOME, AAAAH don't you dare to change it!!!" childish prank).
Starting with examples which also happen to be my impressions so far:
Heroes:
The Might heroes currently seem to be unable to match the performance of the Magic heroes, mainly because of the "Might" skills - the latter are generally less effective than most spells and their only advantage is that they don't need spell points to be used. On the other hand some spells are too powerful right now and if they are properly nerfed, this will no longer be an issue. More about the said spells below.
Skills:
Certain skills from most trees are there just for the sake of being there. +1 Might Attack or +1 Magic Defense or something similar is hardly going to be picked (ever) because it neither increases the survivability of one's own forces, nor their offensive potential - unlike other skills and abilities which have adequate combat application. I'd be better if their effect is improved but linked with some condition. For instance - 3 additional points of Might Defense for every turn when the respective stack "defends". Or +2 Might attack for every consecutive hit after the first one against the same target. These are just illustrations, no need to take them very literally.
Spells:
Too great accent on all aspects of healing. Specifically:
Healing spell - in addition to the presence of healers in every faction with creatures that provide some kind of healing themselves - is overly-abused and guarantees that there will be no losses during the creeping. The cooldown is nice but it does not seem sufficient. This is no healing, it's plain and simple resurrection with its only deficiency being the inability to raise dead stacks. Some increase of the spell point cost and/or reduction of its overall efficiency will be nice. This is mainly valid for the usefulness of the spell for low-level hero - the effect could be better with higher spell power.
Regeneration - same as above, although it does require slightly more finesse to be used which makes the situation better for it.
Life Drain - ugly! I don't understand why this is a level 1 spell. Currently the percentage of HP restored in comparison with the damage dealt is too high and some tougher creatures benefit greatly from this. I'd move the spell up to level 2 (the mass effect becoming level 3 respectively) - provided that the other healing spells are nerfed of course.
Some of the other spells seem to be OK but it's a bit hard to tell with all these incorrect tooltips around. However, the direct-damage spells need a serious boost. Currently they deal very low damage and have a large cooldown which automatically makes spells directed at improving your creatures' stats and the mentioned healing spells more attractive. I haven't tested any high-level direct-damage spells but I presume that the situation is even worse there.
Factions:
Haven:
So, they are all about healing/reducing damage and crowd control but a few things seem to be too easy to abuse. Firstly - their racial skill. Full damage immunity + no restrictions to attack enemy stacks is just too much in addition to all the healing and damage reduction coming from elsewhere. The full extent of its usefulness remains to be seen in MP games but theoretically it doesn't look nice at all. Secondly - some of the creatures. More about them below.
Sentinel/Praetorian - good idea overall, they could remain largely unchanged. However, the Praetorian has unlimited retaliations against the attackers of the creatures that it guards which sometimes results in really serious damage, despite the usual low output of the creature. This might be nerfed a little.
Crossbowman/Marksman - the basic one is good but the Marksman becomes difficult to use if the battle becomes messy because he democratically kills everything on his bolt's path. Maybe the Piercing Bolt has to be reworked.
Sister/Vestal - putting aside the fact that I don't like how some nuns are able to decimate in 1 on 1 battle professional soldiers (it makes total sense, I swear!), the creature serves both as a healer and a damage-dealer. Some damage reduction is in order for the basic and especially for the upgraded version which has a very nasty skill in addition to its normal attack. The attack source - Light magic - hurts creatures with Light Vulnerability A LOT. Pacify should become percentage-based skill, not working all the time (50% at most). Currently Haven has two creatures which can block the enemy without suffering any retaliation which is one too many.
Griffin/Royal Griffin - currently it doesn't do much. Battle Dive is impotent, even provided that it never misses, so it could be improved. Stats-wise it's not a bad creature but slightly more damage won't hurt.
Sun Rider/Sun Crusader - can't comment this creature, its most important skill doesn't work. When it starts working - maybe then. Currently it just hits and absorbs damage which is exactly as dull as it sounds.
Radiant Glory/Blazing Glory - VERY powerful creature, which - again - has Light magic for damage source. Its version of strike & return puts creatures with Light Vulnerability in hell of a disadvantage and if it's protected well, it can deal tons of damage. Plus - it offers free dispel for everything around it. The Blazing Glory is the second Haven creature which can incapacitate enemy stacks, which - as I mentioned - is one too many.
Celestial/Seraph - nothing spectacular but I haven't seen it in action too often so most likely I'll edit this part later.
Inferno:
While they are not as incompetent in everything as it might seem, some things can certainly be improved about them. Currently Gating doesn't seem to work correctly so I'll reserve my judgement for the time when it starts working. One of the most serious problems that the faction suffers at the moment is lack of universally useful special abilities. This is perhaps the faction with the least specials and half of its creatures are used just for attacking directly. The overall damage output of the red things isn't bad but the toughness leaves much to be desired (this was supposed to be the toughest faction, remember?). Moreover, in a reasonably messy battle, some of the creature's abilities become equally damaging for you and the opponent, which is just daft (if it is to remain this way, make the enemy suffer at least twice more). Fire Resistance doesn't help you in 95% of the cases while Light Vulnerability is really bad news for you. The former should be improved while the latter - reduced.
Maniac/Demented - the Maniac is just as straight-forward as its cousin from Heroes III - the Imp - it does nothing besides attacking (only in this case it deals mediocre rather than low damage). It has some mind immunity which it certainly doesn't need that early in the game and that's it. I'd give it some weaker version of the Demented's skill so it can pretend to be doing something. The Demented on the other hand is a pretty good creature and could stay as it is (I don't know how much the effect of its ability stacks though, it could even require some nerfing here).
Hell Hound/Cerberus - currently the biggest problem among the Cores. It deals pretty good damage and has nice abilities but it can't live long enough to use them - except if you keep it alive with some of the stupid spells mentioned above. It's a large creature - very easy to target, easily affected by obstacles and can't be guarded. In short - very vulnerable. This is compensated with... low defense, low HP and low weekly growth (the lowest of all Inferno Cores). I'd improve the HP to at least 34-35 and the growth with at least 1 more per week.
Succubus/Lilim - Lilim is damn plural you ignorants! OK, I just had to say it.  Cool creature otherwise although its ability can't be used against Necropolis. I'd remove the melee penalty and reduce the weekly growth slightly.
Tormentor/Lacerator - I don't know if the ability which is supposed to increase the damage output when the creature deals/suffers damage works - currently I can't see any improvement so even if it works, it does almost nothing. The AoE damage ability can't be used most of the tie due to friendly stacks in the vicinity - except if you are fond of killing your own army, which is not especially tough anyway. It would be better if the damage dealt to the friendlies is no more than half of the damage dealt to the opponent, so using the thing would make sense.
Juggernaut/Ravager - one more "good only for direct attacks" creature. The charge is VERY difficult to use because there are always friendlies around and the Speed of the creature is very low - at least improve the Speed of both versions to no less than 6 or even 7. If the Ravager is supposed to be a tank, then it definitely needs at least 20% more HP because currently pretty much everything can kill it pretty quickly.
Breeder/Breeder Mother - yeah... So this is the worst Elite in the game - large creature, which has both range and melee penalty, not very tough, deals poor damage and has only 1 ability worth mentioning and the latter is useful only against spell-casters. Decrease the effectiveness of the bloody mana drain and improve its stats A LOT. Currently it's better to have two stacks of Lilim so you can incapacitate the enemy more effectively than bringing this fat pile of worthlessness with you.
Pit Fiend/Pit Lord - the Pit Fiend is a really powerful Champion, no doubt about it. Whether the effect created by Blade of Hatred should grant No Retaliation to the affected creature is debatable but it could remain as it is. Boundless Hate of the Pit Lord however is utterly useless. 15 damage per Pit Lord which can be further reduced by the target's Magic Defense - who would ever waste the creature's turn for this? The damage should be increased to at least 35-40 and the skill should be made usable every few turns (don't know how it is at the moment, never used it more than once).
Stronghold:
Very strong faction with clearly offensive behaviour which currently hosts both the toughest and the most heavy-handed creatures in the game - which kind of doesn't sound right. Their racial makes sure that they can run around whenever they like - let's say that this is OK if the creatures are well-balanced which I don't really think that they are at the moment.
Mauler/Crusher - very tough and hard-hitting but its low weekly growth keeps it somewhat reasonable. The special of the Crusher triggers way too often though and it's almost like the creature always attacks twice - and this is too much pain for the enemy.
Goblin/Goblin Hunter - looks about right but it could have a little less HP for both versions - it's a shooter with very high weekly growth after all.
Harpy/Fury - the Harpy is OK but with Fury the things get ugly. It deals hell of a damage; from a distance; without retaliation and is tough at the same time. Plus it has very high growth. If it is properly protected, it could decimate the enemy stacks without a problem. The damage and the HP need some reduction. No, really, the do!
Dreamwalker/Dreamreaver - nothing much to comment about them and they look about right at the moment. Their presence among the tier 1s however could appear to be problematic but this remains to be seen.
Jaguar Warrior/Panther Warrior - can't comment them before their ability starts working.
Centaur/Centaur Marauder - one of the best Elites in my opinion. Too tough for an archer with no range penalty which tends to retaliate from a distance always when it is not cornered. The upgraded version if even more mobile. The HP should be decreased to 70/80 (basic/upgraded) at most.
Cyclops/Enraged Cyclops - the most sturdy Champion which however excels mostly against individual targets and is often used to absorb damage rather than to deal it. I'm still not sure if the ranged attack of the upgraded version isn't a bit too much but otherwise the creature doesn't scream IMBAAAA! like some other.
OK, I'll add the next later. Go ahead with yours now. 
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 05, 2011 04:20 PM |
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Succubus/Lilim - Lilim is damn plural you ignorants! OK, I just had to say it. Cool creature otherwise although its ability can't be used against Necropolis. I'd remove the melee penalty and reduce the weekly growth slightly.
You forgot an important thing here. The Lilim's Enthrall has a 4 turns duration for a 3 turns cooldown. Not only is the duration way too long but also, the cooldown should be at least 1 turn longer than the spell's duration.
Also, imo, it's not Vulnerability to Light that is the real issue, it's the 1:1 healing to damage conversion from healing spells to vulnerable creatures
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However, the direct-damage spells need a serious boost.
Basically, they need to fix the Magic Attack modifier because right now, it's not working. Spell damage is only increased by the heroes' level.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 05, 2011 09:41 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 22:11, 05 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
You forgot an important thing here. The Lilim's Enthrall has a 4 turns duration for a 3 turns cooldown. Not only is the duration way too long but also, the cooldown should be at least 1 turn longer than the spell's duration.
Never noticed the actual duration but 4 turns is indeed too much. 2 is fairly enough with the cooldown remaining 3 turns.
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Also, imo, it's not Vulnerability to Light that is the real issue, it's the 1:1 healing to damage conversion from healing spells to vulnerable creatures
The healing-to-damage thing is some bad joke, yes, and just can't stay this way (with 100+ Vestals it equals a powerful Lightning Bolt - Heroes III-IV style). I hope this absurd has already been noticed. However, the Light Vulnerability currently means +50% damage from Light-sourced attacks to all Inferno and Necropolis creatures. The Sisters/Vestals and both types of Glories have Light magic as damage source and hence deal some ridiculous damage to the vulnerable things. While handicapping Necropolis a bit (but not THAT much) makes some sense given that they are immune to what not, Inferno has nothing to compensate for this "penalty" - these miserable 20% reduction of a relatively rare type of damage is no excuse to make their life twice harder against a whole faction, the latter already being a bit too generously supplied with nasty tools.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted July 05, 2011 10:09 PM |
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Chaning ALL creatures in the game certainly won't help the balance, actually you can reverse it completely. Change one and see what happens, or change only the most obvious imbalances. Not every creature can be equal in every situation, there must be weak and strong points in the army.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted July 05, 2011 10:15 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 22:16, 05 Jul 2011.
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@Tormentor/Lacerator
I do not agree that the AoE ability need to be reduced towards friendly units. Currently it's really strong, and I like that there are abilities that lethal to both foe and friend.
@Boundless Hate
15 damage per Pit Lord?
you sure? cuz When I had 20 of them, I made 700 damage...
Otherwise Pit Lords are fricking awesome, coolest unit in the game.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 05, 2011 10:21 PM |
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@Tormentor/Lacerator
I do not agree that the AoE ability need to be reduced towards friendly units. Currently it's really strong, and I like that there are abilities that lethal to both foe and friend.
It's limiting its usage too much. Seriously, how often are you going to use it? You need the Tormentors/Lacerators to have at least 2 enemy and no more than 1 friendly stack near them so you can have less losses than the opponent. In a real battle that's a pretty marginal scenario, especially with the Ravager around which is like a walking glue.
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15 damage per Pit Lord?
you sure? cuz When I had 20 of them, I made 700 damage...
I did 90 damage with 6 of them the last time I used it. When did you test it - before or after the patch?
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 05, 2011 10:26 PM |
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I have a few questions, pardon me if they seem to be 'newbie' questions because I am one and since I am new I don't exactly know your history either so I may need extra information  sorry for the burden!
So here are my questions!
In regards to the Might vs Magic heroes: Are you sure? Can you elaborate more on your points here?
In regards to the skills: Do all skills need to be viable in terms of min-max play, can't there be roleplaying ones? Also, what about different styles of play - they may actually need those seemingly useless skills. Are the skills to be questioned without first referring to the balance of the units and other variables that interact with the skills?
In regards to the healing: Is it a bad thing that there are no losses in creeping? What about mana costs in trying to keep sustained high level of creeping? What about when it comes to player vs player? What about the tears/blood vs purge vs cleanse vs crowd control game? How does healing fit into there in its current state?
I am very curious as to your thoughts in this order: how you got your premises, and how you got to your conclusions. I would like to ask you to, for the sake of lurkers and newbies like me, elaborate in depth (as much information and as much of your findings as possible) so I can better understand your position.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 05, 2011 10:36 PM |
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Quote:
The Might heroes currently seem to be unable to match the performance of the Magic heroes, mainly because of the "Might" skills - the latter are generally less effective than most spells and their only advantage is that they don't need spell points to be used. On the other hand some spells are too powerful right now and if they are properly nerfed, this will no longer be an issue. More about the said spells below.
This is very true. A hero that has more mana (a magic hero) will dominate over a might one. Mostly because combats are longer and spells don't last forever (the imba ones at least.)
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Healing spell - in addition to the presence of healers in every faction with creatures that provide some kind of healing themselves - is overly-abused and guarantees that there will be no losses during the creeping.
Which is good. I hate when factions are hindered by useless creeping (with loses). I usually don't use factions that can't creep well, because they turn out to be useless in Multiplayer, no matter how good their full lineup is.
Healing for all = all factions possible on small map.
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Life Drain - ugly! I don't understand why this is a level 1 spell. Currently the percentage of HP restored in comparison with the damage dealt is too high and some tougher creatures benefit greatly from this. I'd move the spell up to level 2 (the mass effect becoming level 3 respectively) - provided that the other healing spells are nerfed of course.
I support the moving of this skill to Tier 2 (and mass version to tier 3). I'm against nerfing it. Once mass vampirism is tier3, it's no longer something you'd get every game. Vampirism on single stack can be simply dispelled and thus isn't a problem with every faction having fast access to well-working dispel.
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Some of the other spells seem to be OK but it's a bit hard to tell with all these incorrect tooltips around. However, the direct-damage spells need a serious boost. Currently they deal very low damage and have a large cooldown which automatically makes spells directed at improving your creatures' stats and the mentioned healing spells more attractive. I haven't tested any high-level direct-damage spells but I presume that the situation is even worse there.
It's really bad for AoE spells.
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Sentinel/Praetorian - good idea overall, they could remain largely unchanged. However, the Praetorian has unlimited retaliations against the attackers of the creatures that it guards which sometimes results in really serious damage, despite the usual low output of the creature. This might be nerfed a little.
I think it's a nice reward for tactical placement. it's easy to avoid in human vs human.
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Crossbowman/Marksman - the basic one is good but the Marksman becomes difficult to use if the battle becomes messy because he democratically kills everything on his bolt's path. Maybe the Piercing Bolt has to be reworked.
It doesn't hit the enemies adjacent to it, and the bolt is extremely powerful since it's so easy to hit 2-3 opponents' stacks (with no range penalty and def piercing). It's actually a nice balance factor for the sick damage output marksmen are capable in a big battle.
Vestal - agreed
Griffin - agreed
Sun Crusader - agreed
Radiant Glory - one dominant Elite per faction isn't bad
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(I don't know how much the effect of its ability stacks though, it could even require some nerfing here).
In my game, it stacked up to +6 (which was like +150% damage). however next turn it was +1 again.
Lilim - agreed (though I'm not so sure about melee penalty, it's a tier 1 shooter after all.)
Tormentor/Lacerator - My main issue with them is that they don't have enough HP to position themselves in the middle of enemy army (which ironically is what their specials need them to do).
Juggernaut/Ravager - definitively needs some hp.
Breeder/Breeder Mother - agreed, albeit mana drain is game breaking.
Pit Fiend/Pit Lord - I agree on the boundless hate. In theory it's 15*7 (assuming the enemy has 7 creatures) = 105 magical damage per pitlord which is rather big but it's still underwhelming somehow.They could safely double it, even at the cost of bigger cooldown.
Goblin - I'd say it's balanced by their horrible damage. i'd say nerf HP and buff damage slightly.
Fury - in all battles I played, they failed to make a big impact on the battle (even bloodlusted) - sure damage is good but they died so fast.
Centaur/Centaur Marauder - Compared to arch lich it deals little damage tho
Cheers.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted July 05, 2011 10:40 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 22:42, 05 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
It's limiting its usage too much. Seriously, how often are you going to use it? You need the Tormentors/Lacerators to have at least 2 enemy and no more than 1 friendly stack near them so you can have less losses than the opponent. In a real battle that's a pretty marginal scenario, especially with the Ravager around which is like a walking glue.
When I have used it, it has been stronger then a regular attack. So an ability that has no retaliation and high damage, wants to be used. And since the Lacerator is a small units, it fairly easy to place him alone with the enemy. it just takes some tricks and good use.
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I did 90 damage with 6 of them the last time I used it. When did you test it - before or after the patch?
After, but I did use it with a Warlock, so maybe the amount of Magic Power affects it...
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 05, 2011 10:56 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 23:02, 05 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
I have a few questions, pardon me if they seem to be 'newbie' questions because I am one and since I am new I don't exactly know your history either so I may need extra information sorry for the burden!
So here are my questions!
In regards to the Might vs Magic heroes: Are you sure? Can you elaborate more on your points here?
In regards to the skills: Do all skills need to be viable in terms of min-max play, can't there be roleplaying ones? Also, what about different styles of play - they may actually need those seemingly useless skills. Are the skills to be questioned without first referring to the balance of the units and other variables that interact with the skills?
In regards to the healing: Is it a bad thing that there are no losses in creeping? What about mana costs in trying to keep sustained high level of creeping? What about when it comes to player vs player? What about the tears/blood vs purge vs cleanse vs crowd control game? How does healing fit into there in its current state?
I am very curious as to your thoughts in this order: how you got your premises, and how you got to your conclusions. I would like to ask you to, for the sake of lurkers and newbies like me, elaborate in depth (as much information and as much of your findings as possible) so I can better understand your position.
First - the things above are my personal impressions and some of them could be revised later - of course I'm not 100% certain that all I'm saying is true, sometimes not even remotely (except about the Breeder - the Breeder just sucks and that's all it does). I encourage everybody to share their own impressions and not only to comment mine! Actually better not comment - except if you strongly disagree with some point - but say what you don't like in the current balance.
So, about your questions:
Might vs. Magic - like I said my current impression is that the Magic heroes have access to better abilities (i.e. spells but there is no longer any difference between spell and ability, except that the former consumes spell points). Healing, Life Drain, Inner Fire (I think that was the Bloodlust-thing) etc. offer more than the regular Might skill (not in all cases though). It's a matter of balancing the paths really.
Regarding the skills - of course you can always have useless skills which could be picked in a single-player game just for fun's sake - this could make even ye olde Eagle Eye useful - but if you are playing on a high difficulty against intelligent AI - which we all hope for - or even more - against a human - you'll never pick certain skills because they offer only a marginal bonus while other improve your performance much more. For example taking +1 Might Defense won't make your army tougher, forget about it - especially with this slow rate of gaining XP. Taking Stone Skin however visibly helps you more with this task. These things have little to do with the balance between the creatures although I agree that the two things are related in general.
About the healing - no, it's not bad to creep without losses, it's bad to smash a neutral party several times as big as your "army" just because you have healers and healing spells. Respectively the factions which don't have access to this commodity are a bit more handicapped (Life Drain in the other hand just HAS to be nerfed or moved to a higher tier, it could make immortal even an army of peasants - if they were present in the game). The main problem in my opinion is that there doesn't seem to be viable alternatives to the various types of healing during the early game which robs the game and makes it too "uni-directional". More powerful direct-damage spells or some similar skills for example could do the trick but right now they are weak.
Edit:
Quote:
After, but I did use it with a Warlock, so maybe the amount of Magic Power affects it...
I hope it isn't so because this will be yet another reason to pick a Magic hero. The skill should have its own power.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted July 05, 2011 11:14 PM |
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I hope it isn't so because this will be yet another reason to pick a Magic hero. The skill should have its own power.
Sorry I was apparently just pulling words out of my ass imagination. I took some closer look and my 26 Pit Lords only did 390, aka 15 per unit. 
I think the abilty could get some minor buff, but not too much because I still think it's very useful when facing many stacks like 4-7...
And I mean cmon, they don't even need to move. 
One things for sure though, the Lacerator's AoE kicks ass!
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 05, 2011 11:27 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 23:29, 05 Jul 2011.
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15 damage per upgraded Champion creature is very insufficient, you don't get legions of them after all. In a normal game on a XL map you'll hardly have more than a few dozens of them which results in 600-700 damage at most (which will be further decreased after the Magic defense reduction is applied, most likely halved or even reduced to something almost insignificant) - and at this point you can expect stacks with aggregate health of 6000-7000 and more. I think 30-40 gross damage per Pit Lord is fairly reasonable if the skill is usable every 3-4 turns (don't forget that the net damage will always be lower because of the Magic defense and thus only the Cores will notice something). The thing is that currently the Pit Fiend hardly needs to be upgraded - Hateful Retaliation - which can incinerate the whole enemy army if used properly - is given to the basic version and 10 additional HP, slightly more damage and the weak Boundless Hate are not even remotely worth 17500 Gold and 20 Crystals (and Iforgothowmanywoodandstone). The only good reason to purchase the upgrade would be the higher growth.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted July 05, 2011 11:33 PM |
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Okay the Vestal's Pacify is completely broken. 
I had my lvl 11 Hero and played around with Lacerators, to see how they work. As I made my adventures across the land with my faithful Lacerators, I happened to stumble upon some Vestals. I with my 67 Lacerators Vs 3 stacks of 45 Vestals. the first 2 stacks where quickly oblidorated in 1 single shot each by the Lacerators. However when the last stack of 45 Vestals attacked, they attacked with the terrible power of Pacify!
45 Vestals completely locked my 67 Lacerators, making them totally unable to act whatsoever, and with that included my hero.
This is IMO clearly to powerful for a core units, however we must ask ourselves, do I have myself to blame for the situation? After all the simple counter to it, is just to bring more friendly stacks to the battlefield, something which I didn't.
Well, even so I still think it's to powerful, but of course some more testing is obviously needed...
I can also add that the Lacerator's AoE seems to be somewhat bugged. (OMG another bug in the Beta??? )
When used it doesn't always damaged all units surrounding it. Something which it is supposed to do...
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2011 11:41 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 23:46, 05 Jul 2011.
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without having played the game I could say it is probably way too powerful indeed. creatures with mind control spells are incredible. in H4 you could fill all the holes in your army with nightmares or genies to paralyze whole armies with terror / song of peace.
I suppose you can do the same in H6, take a stack of crossbowmen, 6 stacks of vestals / blazing glories and pacify / blind everyone so that you can take them one by one...
but I was thinking the song of peace would fit vestals perfectly. to balance it, it could be an activated ability, you would have to move up to the target and would pacify it instead of attacking.
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 06, 2011 12:29 AM |
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Sorry, since I am a newbie I can't offer anything but questions and side observations. There are bigger names around here who can offer more professional insight
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Might vs. Magic - like I said my current impression is that the Magic heroes have access to better abilities (i.e. spells but there is no longer any difference between spell and ability, except that the former consumes spell points). Healing, Life Drain, Inner Fire (I think that was the Bloodlust-thing) etc. offer more than the regular Might skill (not in all cases though). It's a matter of balancing the paths really.
All the abilities that you point to can be taken up by a might hero, the only difference is mana pool (and some other ones) or am I missing something here? I would like to hear your comments in regards to might economic bonuses and how it factors into this as well as say early access to mentoring. Also, I would like to hear your comments about the late game might abilities in conjunction with magic and what the most optimal build would be compared to the most optimal build of a magic based hero. Also, I think I would like to hear your impressions on how each faction deals with its respective might heroes. Are some might heroes better than others? Can you please clarify for me?
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Regarding the skills - of course you can always have useless skills which could be picked in a single-player game just for fun's sake - this could make even ye olde Eagle Eye useful - but if you are playing on a high difficulty against intelligent AI - which we all hope for - or even more - against a human - you'll never pick certain skills because they offer only a marginal bonus while other improve your performance much more. For example taking +1 Might Defense won't make your army tougher, forget about it - especially with this slow rate of gaining XP. Taking Stone Skin however visibly helps you more with this task. These things have little to do with the balance between the creatures although I agree that the two things are related in general.
Well, we can all certainly agree that if we're playing to win that only certain skills will be chosen. However, I must ask you again another newbie question. Will the competitive community, as a whole, embrace normal xp gain or will they prefer fast/faster? Also, I would like to ask how you feel about dynasty bonuses and traits. Can you project for us whether or not they will be a factor or will the community throw those out and if so why? I would also like to point out that you can 'respecialize' your hero in game (at a cost - I think), does this change how you view skills? Could it be possible that early on you can take a specific build and then transform it later on for a sort of 'blossoming' / 'boom' / 'exponential' growth type build? Is it also possible that you may end up picking those skills for specific items and they factor into the balance vs item equation?
While it is certainly unfair to ask you to project/prophesize about events or what the game could offer I would kindly ask you to keep those thoughts close to you for future discussion when the game does release. Also, are there any builds that you can think of that could utilize these so-called 'marginal' skills? Can you make them work? If so, how far is the gap between those and the most 'optimal' given the map we are playing on remains the same and the factions remain the same?
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About the healing - no, it's not bad to creep without losses, it's bad to smash a neutral party several times as big as your "army" just because you have healers and healing spells. Respectively the factions which don't have access to this commodity are a bit more handicapped (Life Drain in the other hand just HAS to be nerfed or moved to a higher tier, it could make immortal even an army of peasants - if they were present in the game). The main problem in my opinion is that there doesn't seem to be viable alternatives to the various types of healing during the early game which robs the game and makes it too "uni-directional". More powerful direct-damage spells or some similar skills for example could do the trick but right now they are weak.
I would like ask you kindly if you will take the burden of trying to play without healers using a might hero with marginal skills and see what the best you can come with is with each faction. I believe it will bring out some new observations that may prove not only interesting but valuable, do you agree or disagree? If not or if so, why?
I also would humbly ask you to further elaborate on the 'seem to be viable alternatives' by listing what alternatives are there and how far they fall short from the optimal. In essence, because I am a low skill player and new here I am not certain I could provide a high quality report on the various alternatives and how far they are from the gap - this requires tactical genius of some kind which I lack.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted July 06, 2011 04:07 AM |
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I'm a little surprised how spell duration is handled in this incarnation. Ice Shield lasts 18 rounds at level 3? Kind of strange.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 06, 2011 04:45 AM |
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I'm a little surprised how spell duration is handled in this incarnation. Ice Shield lasts 18 rounds at level 3? Kind of strange.
Dear Commissar,
I don't think it does unless I am mistaken, I believe it's around a 4 turn duration at base. The tool tips are all messed up and in combat is the only time you'll see the actual duration.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted July 06, 2011 05:31 AM |
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I would like ask you kindly if you will take the burden of trying to play without healers using a might hero with marginal skills and see what the best you can come with is with each faction. I believe it will bring out some new observations that may prove not only interesting but valuable, do you agree or disagree? If not or if so, why?
Sure, you can test this if you want to, but testing with this very specific set of variables that would never occur in a pvp game would just be an exercise in futility, as it would never happen in a serious game.
It would be interesting to see the results, but no more than that. It does nothing to help tell you how balanced a faction it, or what needs balancing. Just my 2 cents...
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 06, 2011 07:56 AM |
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I would like ask you kindly if you will take the burden of trying to play without healers using a might hero with marginal skills and see what the best you can come with is with each faction. I believe it will bring out some new observations that may prove not only interesting but valuable, do you agree or disagree? If not or if so, why?
Sure, you can test this if you want to, but testing with this very specific set of variables that would never occur in a pvp game would just be an exercise in futility, as it would never happen in a serious game.
It would be interesting to see the results, but no more than that. It does nothing to help tell you how balanced a faction it, or what needs balancing. Just my 2 cents...
You should elaborate on that, I am not sure as to why it would not help especially when you begin tossing in build after build then comparing them against the optimal of each faction and within its own faction. You can then see the performance of each build(faction) and then you can figure out what skills should be elevated and by how much. You should be able to graph how each build grows in power in relation to tears/creatures/whatever.
You're trying to close the gap are you not? So wouldn't it be beneficial and worthwhile to look at the worst builds and the best builds?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 06, 2011 09:22 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 09:29, 06 Jul 2011.
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@vaeledrin, you sure that you are not a troll or a figurehead? We understand that you are weak and incompetent player and we - a gathering of strategical geniuses, but you are a bit too zealous in emphasizing this. 
OK, let's give it a try anyway.
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All the abilities that you point to can be taken up by a might hero, the only difference is mana pool (and some other ones) or am I missing something here? I would like to hear your comments in regards to might economic bonuses and how it factors into this as well as say early access to mentoring. Also, I would like to hear your comments about the late game might abilities in conjunction with magic and what the most optimal build would be compared to the most optimal build of a magic based hero. Also, I think I would like to hear your impressions on how each faction deals with its respective might heroes. Are some might heroes better than others? Can you please clarify for me?
No, the Might hero doesn't have access to all spells - although currently the most overpowered ones are accessible. The mana pool and the potency of the spells makes the difference and here the Magic hero definitely has an advantage.
The economy-based skills are universally accessible, no difference between Might and Magic here.
The "late" game in MMH VI is not an absolute notion. On a normal XP gaining speed you have level 8-9 hero in the end of month 3 - except if you find Shrine of the Seventh Dragon. A level 9 hero has access to the first two tiers of skills/spells and so far it goes like this: tier 1 spells give some good or too good bonus to your troops while tier 1 Might skills do offer some tactical advantage but less powerful than the spells. The tier 2 spells are usually a mass version of the tier 1s, although it seems that the effect per individual creature is reduced by about 30%, while the tier 2 Might skills range from mass bonus to individual boosts which still aren't too spectacular (Evasive Maneuvers for example is nice but currently broken as it offers at least 90% damage reduction, while it should offer 10% - a bug obviously, while Pressing Attack is a weaker version of the Heroes V Demon Lord Mark of the Damned and should be moved to tier 1 to have some use).
The hero specializations currently are rather bland and it doesn't matter very much which one will you chose in a game that promises to continue more than 1-2 months. Moreover, you can build your custome hero and give him whatever specialty you want.
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Well, we can all certainly agree that if we're playing to win that only certain skills will be chosen. However, I must ask you again another newbie question. Will the competitive community, as a whole, embrace normal xp gain or will they prefer fast/faster? Also, I would like to ask how you feel about dynasty bonuses and traits. Can you project for us whether or not they will be a factor or will the community throw those out and if so why? I would also like to point out that you can 'respecialize' your hero in game (at a cost - I think), does this change how you view skills? Could it be possible that early on you can take a specific build and then transform it later on for a sort of 'blossoming' / 'boom' / 'exponential' growth type build? Is it also possible that you may end up picking those skills for specific items and they factor into the balance vs item equation?
The "Normal" XP gaining speed is currently horrendously slow. It is hard to get as far as level 10 even in relatively long game, let alone level 15 where the third tier of spells/abilities becomes available. You won't see much MP games on this setting.
Haven't tested the dynasty bonuses but whatever they do, it shouldn't be related to the balance in any way.
As for the repsecing - I still hope that they will remove the lame thing. It's among the worst ideas in the whole game.
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Also, are there any builds that you can think of that could utilize these so-called 'marginal' skills? Can you make them work? If so, how far is the gap between those and the most 'optimal' given the map we are playing on remains the same and the factions remain the same?
Currently they are impossible to "optimize". A skill giving you a static bonus of +1 to something does just that and nothing else. You don't gain any serious advantage against the opponent by picking it, it does not allow you to utilize new tactics, it just provides a marginal improvement of some stat. Maybe if you take all the three levels of the respective skill you'll notice some difference but this requires a level 15 hero and 3 wasted skill points.
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I would like ask you kindly if you will take the burden of trying to play without healers using a might hero with marginal skills and see what the best you can come with is with each faction. I believe it will bring out some new observations that may prove not only interesting but valuable, do you agree or disagree? If not or if so, why?
Tried it many times and the conclusion is pretty clear to me - factions which have healers and further access to healing spells creep much faster than the factions which don't. The latter on the other hand are forced to take some kind of healing - for example Life Drain - to keep pace. Otherwise they can't afford to attack large neutral stacks without losses which automatically puts them in disadvantage. Hence the healing needs nerfing.
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I also would humbly ask you to further elaborate on the 'seem to be viable alternatives' by listing what alternatives are there and how far they fall short from the optimal.
Currently only the direct-damage spells are some sort of alternative but they deal almost insignificant damage and have 3 turns of cooldown which makes them much weaker. Your creatures do much better damage and attack every turn, so you're better off healing them so you can deal this higher damage every turn, deplete the opposing stacks and lose nothing.
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