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| Thread: No chaining anymore? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 13, 2011 03:02 AM |
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Quote:
if you chain 3-4 heroes to send your town's army across half the map in one turn. Then it's rather ridiculous.
Besides the strategical part, it comes also handy to save time. May I ask you how long a HoMM5 1vs1 game lasts? Rather than walking for 7 turns and click end, why not send it instantly if you properly made your chain. Back in time, all users from east Europe payed hourly internet connection, like me. Now the lack of chain would have cost me 20$/game more 
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Era II mods and utilities
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 13, 2011 03:26 AM |
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Clearly the solution would have been a summon spell that costed no mana or movement and had no requirements but unit cost would be increased based on distance to capitol.
Chaining was pretty tedious.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted July 13, 2011 07:09 AM |
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No thanks.
Then again, it seems it will be possible in H6 after all.
In my opinion it is one of the silliest and most boring/tedious things that were ever in game.
I would say good riddance the moment they disabled it.
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eurasianbadger
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 13, 2011 08:00 AM |
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Infinitus:
Quote:
Chaining is important part of Heroes game. Multiplayer will loose lots of strategies because of that.
This is called Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy: Quote:
The Texas sharpshooter fallacy is a logical fallacy in which information that has no relationship is interpreted or manipulated until it appears to have meaning. The name comes from a joke about a Texan who fires some shots at the side of a barn, then paints a target centered on the biggest cluster of hits and claims to be a sharpshooter.
Your praise of chaining can be described as:
Chaining gives players an advantage.
Therefore, chaining is good for the game.
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In my opinion chaining is atrocious. It's as silly as crossbowmen would be if they shot hippos instead of quarrels.
Heroes of Might and Magic is a turn-based strategy game. Turns are used so that time can be cut into equal pieces, then each player is assigned some time. It's a more playable approximation of everything happening simultaneously. If things were more simultaneous, then we'd end up with one of the three:
- a real-time game where there's no time for sophisticated planning and interesting decisions. Real time games notoriously lack depth, in addition to being very resource demanding (and stuff like path finding algorithms for large number of units is incredibly complex).
- very short turns, with very few movement points. It would work, it would be more realistic, but the game would constantly alternate between players and that would be extremely boring. For this reason there are no multiplayer roguelike games.
- turn-based game with simultaneous turns (Frozen Synapse, Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic, Dominions 3). These games can be interesting, but they have to make sacrifices to make it possible. In practical terms it would make tactical combat mode impossible. Tactical combat is the core of Heroes games, everything boils down to tactical combat.
Why I'm bringing it up ? None of the 4 approaches (4th is classic, alternate TBS like Heroes) is perfect. Each of them has significant shortcomings. Chaining exploits a flaw of the system in a most glaring way. It glorifies it. It's reality-bending. Many people prefer turn-based games because they are either more realistic, or make more sense, or have more depth. Chaining is the opposite of it all.
10 people won't drive a car faster than 1 person. If I have a package to deliver to the other side of town, I won't deliver it faster. Distance covered by a number of people is not additive. Extra people could help me deliver packages to different people as long as they're not on the same line. Chaining is worse than bunny hopping in FPS games.
In Heroes 1-5, even extra heroes are useful for transport even without chaining. You can send reinforcements to two or more castles in less time. If anything, chaining removes depth, because after initial setup you can teleport your army anywhere, thus no need to split forces, for backup plans, etc.
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A riddle ! What's the most famous mythical creature that never appeared in Heroes1-6 ? It's very well known. PM me.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 13, 2011 08:05 AM |
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Things you don't understand always seem boring and tedious. Chaining is a part of Heroes 1, Heroes 2, Heroes 3, and even Heroes 5.
"Revolutionary, not evolutionary" I think I have heard this somewhere, haven't I?
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted July 13, 2011 08:06 AM |
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In H3 and H5, chaining:
Positive - Could get troops to your main hero quickly (eg. in one turn)
Negative - Each turn takes forever (moving troops from hero to hero)
I think the negative outways the positive, I always hated playing multiplayer when my opponent had like 6-7 heroes and his turns took sooooooooooo long.....
Maybe in H6 there are other ways to get troops to your hero....and I like the idea of having max. number of heroes equal to number of towns +1 heroes.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2011 08:24 AM |
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Elvin, I somewhat disagree with you.
Isn't it with chaining the same hing as with everything else? Logistics clearly plays a role in every military operation - and not a small one, therefore certain logistical aspects MAY well be part of the game.
Chaining in Heroes is a logistical aspect. Sure, it defies logic, but having 1000 Cyclopses take up the same space as 1 Sprite defies logic as well, so who cares?
You could have 8 heroes plus another hero for each town you own as special reserve in garrison, which would give you enormous troop-carrying capabilities. Clearly you might call this a very important part of the game, the ability to bring troops where they are needed, and the ability to organize play to maaximize the amount of neutral-fighting per turn.
Now, you might call a well positioned chain of heroes a supply line, but such a supply line can be cut quite easily by killing a link within the chain. From a winning/losing point of view, cutting supply lines is a very valid and elegant tactic to conquer areas, therefore, if chaining can be done to a massive and even decisive extent, it must be legitimate to devise means to cut chains, since they cripple the opponents ability to effectively wage war.
The logical method to do this, is to create special secondary heroes which are fast, have a big scouting radius and are capable to destroy "chain links" with a minimum of troops...
That means, if you wage a highly logistical war against a highly organized opponent, if you start an offense, you should have a bridgehead near opponent's territory, so that you need only a small supply chain, and field 2 advanced secondaries as scouts, pathfinders and chain destroyers.
Obviously, MENTOR(ing) is the ability to use here, to bring secondaries to an acceptable level...
See where that leads, Elvin? Mentoring Heroes is not different from chaining - it's a TOOL which allows you to reach your goals. You can't say that one is ok, while the other is disrespectful - on the contrary. There IS of course a way against suicide kamikazes - you need to have those yourself as interceptors for suicidals.
I mean, you can't say that using trains to ship supplies is fine, but sending out squads to destroy rail lines is bad.
Of course, everything that is a MUST in any given game, is obviously redundant, if it can be done without much trouble and should be eliminated from any game.
Game rules are game rules. If chaining is possible, you have to deal with it in some way. If not - well, then not.
It looks like they wanted to cut down the logistical aspects - no ammo or ammo cart, for example. What they've done here is a compromise - chaining IS possible, but in a very limited way that depends on the size of your empire.
I would think that's something everyone should be able to live with.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 13, 2011 08:38 AM |
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Quote:
Chaining heroes was the most stupid thing ever. Period.
As opposed to shared creature pools in all towns, it is smart and elegant strategical approach.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 13, 2011 08:41 AM |
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Quote:
As opposed to shared creature pools in all towns, it is smart and elegant strategical approach.
I love your sense of humor 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 13, 2011 08:45 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I never played competitively, and one of the reasons I didn't was because I think some of the measure necesary to play - or at least win - in that league were downright silly. And chaining is the epitome of that. If you had to 'cheat the game' in order to stand a chance, frankly I would rather not play.
That's kind of close-minded to say. A good player doesn't cheat, he doesn't need to. Sure some things are ridiculous and disrespectful against an opponent like mentoring kamikaze secondaries or hit&running with your main but sending troops to your main with a secondary..? It's kind of natural. Where it starts getting silly though is if you chain 3-4 heroes to send your town's army across half the map in one turn. Then it's rather ridiculous.
I don't talk about cheating, I talk about cheating the game - by which I mean finding loopholes to work around the intended design of the game.
Now of course I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure the developers did not intend chaining as a means of army transport - in fact they implemented Town Portal and Dimension Door for the very same means. Now I won't say Dimension Door was a good idea, but that's how I see the intention of the game.
I think it compares very well with people who bought a lot of bunch of heroes on day 1 and then rushed opponent with a mass of start troops. Is it cheating? No. Was it intended? Hardly (as proved by the fact that it was fixed in one of the expansions). Same happened for chaining come Heroes 4 - which might mean they disliked it in Heroes 3 but couldnt patch such an essential part of the game, or might just be part of the general changes come Heroes 4.
And I don't say this to pick on people who use chaining and always have secondary heroes to pick up things to save movement, etc. If that's what you like, good for you. All I'm saying is it added a level of micromanagement I found tiresome - hence I didn't play multiplayer.
Of course, don't even get me started with Heroes 5 not having a proper town portal.
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What will happen now?
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eurasianbadger
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 13, 2011 08:48 AM |
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Chaining is the lamest implementation of logistics ever. Space out heroes so they're 1 day away from each other. Congratulations, now you have a telegraph line... except it transports creatures.
A more realistic implementation of logistics would also be more demanding. You would have to calculate how many days it would take to move units from X to Y, then from Y to Z. Especially if ships are involved.
I don't have the game installed now, but does chaining allow you to skip boarding penalty for ships ?
Shared creature pool is not worse. It's simply just as bad.
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A riddle ! What's the most famous mythical creature that never appeared in Heroes1-6 ? It's very well known. PM me.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 13, 2011 08:55 AM |
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Quote:
Chaining is the lamest implementation of logistics ever. Space out heroes so they're 1 day away from each other. Congratulations, now you have a telegraph line... except it transports creatures.
A more realistic implementation of logistics would also be more demanding. You would have to calculate how many days it would take to move units from X to Y, then from Y to Z. Especially if ships are involved.
Or just do as in Heroes 4, so that not only Heroes but also units have a daily movement quota. Once unit has moved the daily length, he can travel no longer, even if moved to a new Hero.
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What will happen now?
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted July 13, 2011 09:09 AM |
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Quote:
Or just do as in Heroes 4
This was big mistake. I know many pro players that refused to play H4 just for that. If you guys not play multiplayer, play the game as you used to play, like someone force you to use chaining. But for multiplayer chaining it's a must. Nothing to discuss here seriously ...
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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eurasianbadger
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 13, 2011 09:12 AM |
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Quote:
Or just do as in Heroes 4, so that not only Heroes but also units have a daily movement quota. Once unit has moved the daily length, he can travel no longer, even if moved to a new Hero.
Shhh ! Thou shalt not admit that H4, for all it's faults, did some things well. You won't win moderator election the next time.
You especially don't want to admit that H4 pioneered some things in the series, like faction-specific magic schools, turrets that need to be manned, caravans (call it H5 caravans), more horizontal creature hierarchy, genuinely unique creatures (abilities), or creatures with more than 1 spell.
I never got into Heroes competitive multiplayer. I never wanted to. Chaining was the single thing that made me not want to play HMM in multiplayer.
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A riddle ! What's the most famous mythical creature that never appeared in Heroes1-6 ? It's very well known. PM me.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2011 09:14 AM |
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Sure, but things that are a MUST, are redundant as well. It makes no sense to do things because you MUST do them, lest you don't lose. You should always have a choice.
Also, that's not true, at least not fully. You could always play with a severe time limit. But that's something not too popular, right? I wonder why not, though?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 13, 2011 09:25 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Or just do as in Heroes 4
This was big mistake. I know many pro players that refused to play H4 just for that. If you guys not play multiplayer, play the game as you used to play, like someone force you to use chaining. But for multiplayer chaining it's a must. Nothing to discuss here seriously ...
That is not true. The only reason you have to use chaining is because you can use chaining - if it's not there, you won't loose tactical advantage by not using it. Heroes 4 sucked for many reasons, but I think people could get perfectly used to that system with a proper town portal system. I'm also positive that people will get used to the H6 system in time - which is one of the only things I think they've done really well in H6 from my experiece so far.
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What will happen now?
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted July 13, 2011 10:57 AM |
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One little example. Random map. Week 1. Most space of start zone is unknown territory. You creep with main hero for 4 turns in one direction. And boom, dead end ... To get back on road you have to loose 4 turns. This big waist of time will lead most probable to loosing game if your opponent is decent player. This not going to happen if you have support line of heroes ready to chain back your hero to main town with no waist of time.
Quote:
Sure, but things that are a MUST, are redundant as well. It makes no sense to do things because you MUST do them, lest you don't lose. You should always have a choice.
To go final battle you must buy army and go battle. Choice ?
Sure here are other choice, don't buy army, go battle and loose game.
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Razorphilia
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 13, 2011 11:22 AM |
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"But for multiplayer chaining it's a must."
I rarely play Heroes single player and at most I use a squire hero to move back to town and get my creatures and then meet my main hero somewhere. Perhaps you think chaining is difficult, and by successfully chaining you are proving how good you are, but chaining is not difficult. It is time consuming and it isn't fun. But maybe it's fun for you. Maybe you're some kind of masochist.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 13, 2011 11:27 AM |
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There are exploits competitive players don't like to see or use, for instance wraithbombs (most hated tactic EVER) and suicide armageddon. Those are usually banned. However chaining is just a method of going around crappy logistical issues (Sorry but spending a week to get back to the castle for creatures and another week to get where you were previously ain't fun) and also a mechanism to weaken the broken town portal spell in long games. That's why it's allowed. As for Red Rush and other strats that can be gruesomely annoying - those are usually prevented by mapmakers due to map design (i.e. garrison you have to break through, impossible to do @ week 1). Nobody plays on "original aka provided with the game" maps anyway in serious games, because those are usually not balanced well (highly favoring one player or offering excessive randomness. Plus town portal ain't banned on them.)
As for no chaining: well, we competitives will miss it, but we'll get used to it
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 13, 2011 12:16 PM |
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I know what you are saying JJ but.. some things just do not work for me. I find it very tedious to arrange a plan to deal with mentored kamikazes, deal with hit&run etc etc. In some cases it's perfectly feasible, others harder but either way it feels like wasting part of my otherwise enjoyable time, I wouldn't try it against an opponent out of respect for him. This is as exciting as flag&running mines..
If I arranged a game with no rules that's another tale but otherwise it's pointless to even go there. And obviously I will use chaining(I actually hated the H4 way) but 3+ heroes chaining is like pulling teeth, silly micromanagement at best. At least H6 does not allow us to buy as many heroes as we like so that sounds like an acceptable compromise as far as I'm concerned.
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