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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: No chaining anymore?
Thread: No chaining anymore? This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
Conan_dw
Conan_dw


Hired Hero
posted July 13, 2011 08:51 PM

chaining makes the turns longer, but not the game, the fights would be done without chaining on a later day thats all.

and since h5 and the simultan turns, the timeprob isnt as big as in h3!
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 13, 2011 09:00 PM

Sorry JJ, better one plays, more has to do. 2 minutes turns would lead to poorly planned games. 2vs2 tourney already tried that for obvious reasons and I remember I could do half of things I had to do. We all agree that heroes was and remains a strategy game, limiting the turns to ridiculous little time would be like asking chess players to play faster, just because what?
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted July 13, 2011 09:08 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 21:10, 13 Jul 2011.

Quote:
Personally, I'm glad it's heavily restricted. It was a clearly broken feature that took away all of the real strategy from the game. Especially in super rich competitive maps. Basically create a grid of heroes, collect and kill everything, and give what you want to your main. No worries about dividing your army, keeping some troops at your castle, that kind of thing. You literally have your entire army available anywhere. This is clearly broken.

I also don't see the hate that group creature points are getting. Personally I lovelovelovelovelove the feature. It basically does everything that is good about chaining without causing any of the problems with what is clearly broken with chaining. You still have to divide creatures up, you need to have the creature structure built, or an outside dwelling for the creatures that you are getting, and it allows a fairly regular network of troops to your main as you want them. Furthermore it is limited by the fact that you can only get creatures at castles and strongholds. You have to capture and convert dwellings for them to be of any real use to you, all at a cost. The creature pool system is highly useful, and serves basically the same purpose that chaining did except its not nearly as broken.
The only real difference is that now every town has something like the Heroes III Inferno Castle Gate for recruitment purposes. Your entire population is available everywhere again and can be saved immediately when certain town is threatened (you only need to have the money) or can be amassed for defensive purposes if the would-be attackers don't seem strong enough; if you have more than one town you can still recruit many heroes so the chains aren't exactly gone in the long run; and finally - it's a bloody cheap excuse for removing the caravans. I too support the Heroes IV approach where each creature had its own movement points which determined how far it can go so it wouldn't matter if you have one or an army of heroes used for transportation purposes. Combined with the caravans this was a truly good logistical system (PLEASE, don't start with "but moving with Skeletons/Ballistas/etc. was a pain", I'm not saying that everything was perfect).  

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vaeledrin
vaeledrin


Adventuring Hero
posted July 13, 2011 09:20 PM
Edited by vaeledrin at 21:21, 13 Jul 2011.

Quote:
Sorry JJ, better one plays, more has to do. 2 minutes turns would lead to poorly planned games. 2vs2 tourney already tried that for obvious reasons and I remember I could do half of things I had to do. We all agree that heroes was and remains a strategy game, limiting the turns to ridiculous little time would be like asking chess players to play faster, just because what?


Speeeeeeeeeed Chessssssssssss

Also, you know those tournaments where one person plays against twelve others in twelve concurrent games?

There are other ways to do limited turns.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 13, 2011 09:57 PM

Quote:
Sorry JJ, better one plays, more has to do. 2 minutes turns would lead to poorly planned games. 2vs2 tourney already tried that for obvious reasons and I remember I could do half of things I had to do. We all agree that heroes was and remains a strategy game, limiting the turns to ridiculous little time would be like asking chess players to play faster, just because what?

Bull. Good play is doing the things that benefit you most, not maximizing the amount of things so that it doesn't matter anymore WHAT you do, provided you do as much as possible.
Which is of course a function of how rich a map is and what difficulty you play.

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lichking012
lichking012


Known Hero
posted July 13, 2011 10:05 PM

Quote:
The only real difference is that now every town has something like the Heroes III Inferno Castle Gate for recruitment purposes. Your entire population is available everywhere again and can be saved immediately when certain town is threatened (you only need to have the money) or can be amassed for defensive purposes if the would-be attackers don't seem strong enough; if you have more than one town you can still recruit many heroes so the chains aren't exactly gone in the long run; and finally - it's a bloody cheap excuse for removing the caravans. I too support the Heroes IV approach where each creature had its own movement points which determined how far it can go so it wouldn't matter if you have one or an army of heroes used for transportation purposes. Combined with the caravans this was a truly good logistical system (PLEASE, don't start with "but moving with Skeletons/Ballistas/etc. was a pain", I'm not saying that everything was perfect).


Not quite. First of all, the town needs to be built up in order to hire a creature. So my Necro town with only my ghoul dwelling can only buy ghouls. Upgrades are also an interesting issue for the same reason. If your hero has them, and runs to a town without then you have some issues as well. Personally I hated Caravans. More often than not neutrals would spawn in their path and they would get stuck. It was awful. And this system is far more streamlined anyway. At the point in which you can have enough heroes to chain in heroes 6, with multiple castles, you are really too spread out anyways To set it up. To set up a chain to protect all of your castles, requires a lot more than this game is going to let you have. Especially early.

Id be fine with creature movement points and potentially having these replace hero movemental all together, but i would want it to be an average. So that if I spent half of my movement going to my castle, but I doubled my army size, I get a lot of movement back. Conversely. If I spend All of my movement and give a huge army to someone with a relatively small army, they can only move a bit.

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einomida
einomida


Known Hero
posted July 13, 2011 10:08 PM
Edited by einomida at 22:36, 13 Jul 2011.

Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps you think chaining is difficult, and by successfully chaining you are proving how good you are, but chaining is not difficult. It is time consuming and it isn't fun.


You are wrong. Top level chaining was not something many players could do successfully. I don't think there were more then 5 non-russian players that could be called top level, chaining mastery included, and I believe not much is changed now. 95% of Heroes (3) games are decided in battles against the map. Judging perfectly what troops, skills, spells and stats you need to fight certain fights, fight them as soon as possible, which requires to get there as soon as possible, is the key.
I do tend to come to the same conclusion that for the vast majority of players chaining simply isn't fun, and I can understand them, and can acknowledge that Heroes should not be made for hard core number crunching players, but for casual hotseaters. Will they be able to achieve that, and make the game diverse, so that there will good players, very good players, really good players, top players, we will see.  



Abusing game mechanics succesfully doesn't necessarily do good to high level play. It depends if the abuse is simply a matter of "training it" and being able to do it with enough games and mathematics; or if it actually comes from strategical choices and tactical skill.

Two examples, quoting another person from another from from another game from a little different argument:
Mutalisk balling in SC
"A lot of people just assume that a clunky interfece makes a game more 'skill based', such as starcraft, where madly clicking a group of mutalisks on an overlord to have them gather into a ball was more in line with a 'skillful' game. In short, people say that the more a player has to do to have his units perform how he wants them to, the more skill there is in the game."

Roll cancel in Capcom vs SNK 2
"For example, capcom vs snk has a *very* difficult tactic to do - the roll-cancel. Despite being really, really hard to perform (press a+b, then do a special move withing 3/60th's of a second), this actually became such a dominant tactic in the game, that capcom vs snk became degenerate at a high level of play - the roll-cancel, if you could do it consistently, ruined the game at tournament level."

All in all. Did succesful chaining result in autowin? If yes, it's a bad abuse. If not, it's ok.



Quote:
Bull. Good play is doing the things that benefit you most, not maximizing the amount of things so that it doesn't matter anymore WHAT you do, provided you do as much as possible.
Which is of course a function of how rich a map is and what difficulty you play.


Missed this earlier, but agreed.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted July 13, 2011 10:25 PM

Quote:
Not quite. First of all, the town needs to be built up in order to hire a creature. So my Necro town with only my ghoul dwelling can only buy ghouls. Upgrades are also an interesting issue for the same reason. If your hero has them, and runs to a town without then you have some issues as well.
This is no different than the standard chain, it's only easier. In both cases you need to recruit the creatures from somewhere and if this is not a tavern where you can buy up to 8 heroes - which is applicable only on very rich maps and doesn't necessarily pay back - you are left with what the towns and the external dwellings can offer. Given the Heroes VI control point system, only the towns matter. Only the very early chains are stopped and in return you have sort of a automatic and free of charge semi-town-portal, only that it is a one-way trip (still this is a movement without involving a hero - before we didn't have even that, except in Heroes IV).
Quote:
Personally I hated Caravans. More often than not neutrals would spawn in their path and they would get stuck.
This has never really been a big issue, at least in my experience. But even if it is - what's the problem to get the caravan to fight the neutrals? Or to invent some workaround - for example to pay them for the passage if they are too strong or something like this? Or to pass through the neutral stacks with some movement penalty? I don't think that any of this is necessary but here you go - you have many options.
Quote:
To set up a chain to protect all of your castles, requires a lot more than this game is going to let you have.
On a proper XL map with an underground there is no way to protect all castles via a chain against any opponent above chimpanzee, period. This could work on S, M and with difficulties - L-sized map without an underground and relatively close towns. Otherwise the opponent must be sleeping to let you walk around and do nothing.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 13, 2011 10:28 PM

Quote:
Bull.


Okay JJ, I can nothing else but bow in front of your vast multiplayer experience. Peace.
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted July 13, 2011 10:33 PM

Oh I hated 2 min turns. Basically less strategy & always ran out of time. I hate feeling rushed.

Even the normal 4 minutes.
I lost a few games from running out of time lol.

I like unlimited turns (Of course with reasonable times).
Kuma took alot of time, but it was always fun!
I got some patience.
I am usually quick still though.
I remember I used to be called the quick killer haha.
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eurasianbadger
eurasianbadger

Tavern Dweller
posted July 13, 2011 10:46 PM

Infinitus said chaining is also a workaround for dead-ends (presumably on random maps ?), and associated waste of time if you guess wrong. But if you're using chaining for that, then you've painted yourself in the corner. You already have an extra hero, you can use him for scouting :-).

Scouting skill could also be made better without making it pathetic in late game. Heroes4 made Scouting better by introducing fog of war (terrain stays revealed, but you only see creatures close to your heroes, units and castles).

This forum is ancient from technical point of view, but it has good aspects. Quotes are anonymous, I like it, maybe people focus more on points and don't take stuff personally.

Quote:
There are exploits competitive players don't like to see or use, for instance wraithbombs (most hated tactic EVER) and suicide armageddon. Those are usually banned.


If the company cared, there would be balance patches. You could make them MP-only so as to not break the campaign.

The lack of patches supports the rumor that H3 was the least innovative game in HOMM serries because 3DO was already in trouble. I heard Heroes3 was meant to be more ambitious.

Quote:

However chaining is just a method of going around crappy logistical issues (Sorry but spending a week to get back to the castle for creatures and another week to get where you were previously ain't fun)



My favorite Heroes-like game, Age of Wonders: Shadow magic, has great strategical depth (and breadth) without chaining. Units have movement points like heroes. AOW:SM offers a variety of movement boosters, including:
- Roads
- Pioneers, available to everyone, who can build roads (even found new cities...)
- a spell to enchant roads
- one faction, Humans, has flying ships as super units. They're weak combat-wise, but make stacked armies fly.
- Castle Gates, like Inferno portals from H3 Inferno, but one-side only. They're late game, more limited, but AOW:SM strongly dislike them for simplifying the game.
- Alternate reality plane, Shadow World, which works much like the network of caves, except that units travel 3x faster
- Underground, dwarves and goblins have units who can dig permanent tunnels. You can create permanent shortcuts.

Do you think these are less fun than chaining ? Less varied ?

I still think it's Sharpshooter's Fallacy. If the drag&drop bug wasn't fixed (was it heroes4 ?), then people would use it in multiplayer. Because if you don't, your opponent will. I'm talking about the bug that let you trivially move units from one castle to another.

Heroes has its own tools for improving mobility. Because Dimension Door is imba, it becomes a no-brainer and overshadows other spells like Town Gate. Speaking of Town Gate, I like the most the version where it only teleports you to the nearest town. Quite strategic, and bad at offense (not sure if that's good).

Heroes may not have modding tools so players can't take matters in their own hands (like Dominions2, 3 players can). And in the era of DLC it's not likely we will see modding tools. But at least there are still map editors.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 13, 2011 11:00 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Bull.


Okay JJ, I can nothing else but bow in front of your vast multiplayer experience. Peace.

Sure.
Keep in mind, I'm not arguing against chaining. I just say that a lot of mp maps are simply favouring the approach, that you simply have to do as much as possible in any given turn.
Sucks.
Has nothing to do with how good you play the game. Is just transsferring RTS gaming to TBS.

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lichking012
lichking012


Known Hero
posted July 13, 2011 11:06 PM

Quote:
This is no different than the standard chain, it's only easier. In both cases you need to recruit the creatures from somewhere and if this is not a tavern where you can buy up to 8 heroes - which is applicable only on very rich maps and doesn't necessarily pay back - you are left with what the towns and the external dwellings can offer. Given the Heroes VI control point system, only the towns matter. Only the very early chains are stopped and in return you have sort of a automatic and free of charge semi-town-portal, only that it is a one-way trip (still this is a movement without involving a hero - before we didn't have even that, except in Heroes IV).
It's not the same as chaining. With a chain, I can get all of the creatures I need from all (or most depending on my  map size of my castles, and be able to get them all back the next day. With this system you have a semi regular flow of troops, assuming that you are aggressive enough to conquer regularly, but there is no free magic teleportation back to where ever you need to go. Town portals are useful but expensive. The problem with Chaining isn't the amount of creatures it lets you get it's the canvas of protection it gives you. The group creature point keeps the influx of creatures and eliminates the canvas. It is much less powerful than chaining.

Quote:
This has never really been a big issue, at least in my experience. But even if it is - what's the problem to get the caravan to fight the neutrals? Or to invent some workaround - for example to pay them for the passage if they are too strong or something like this? Or to pass through the neutral stacks with some movement penalty? I don't think that any of this is necessary but here you go - you have many options.
Fair enough, there are certainly work arounds, but given the new system caravans are obsolete anyways.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted July 13, 2011 11:39 PM

Quote:
It's not the same as chaining. With a chain, I can get all of the creatures I need from all (or most depending on my  map size of my castles, and be able to get them all back the next day. With this system you have a semi regular flow of troops, assuming that you are aggressive enough to conquer regularly, but there is no free magic teleportation back to where ever you need to go. Town portals are useful but expensive. The problem with Chaining isn't the amount of creatures it lets you get it's the canvas of protection it gives you. The group creature point keeps the influx of creatures and eliminates the canvas. It is much less powerful than chaining.
The point is that the chaining requires management and the chains can be broken while defending a town which produces creatures but does not keep them from leaving without a hero doesn't - it just feels like a legal cheat in comparison with the previous games where you needed to invest some skill to have good results. Combined with instant conversion this is cheap, lazy and downright anti-logical.
Quote:
Fair enough, there are certainly work arounds, but given the new system caravans are obsolete anyways.
That's the thing, it just disposes of a large number of possible logistical issues and of the logistics as such, rendering it to a quasi-version of the Town Portal - not to mention that you also have Town Portal in addition to this, only that it is not totally free. It may offer some new approaches but strategically it is yet another simplification.

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eurasianbadger
eurasianbadger

Tavern Dweller
posted July 13, 2011 11:51 PM

Quote:
It may offer some new approaches but strategically it is yet another simplification.


And look at Black Hole is doing. They've implemented a mechanic that does much the same thing. It allows you to summon an army to defend any city (or instant reinforcements if you conquer a minor village). Shouldn't proponents of chaining be excited to hear about common creature pool ?

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lichking012
lichking012


Known Hero
posted July 14, 2011 02:46 AM
Edited by lichking012 at 02:49, 14 Jul 2011.

Quote:
The point is that the chaining requires management and the chains can be broken while defending a town which produces creatures but does not keep them from leaving without a hero doesn't - it just feels like a legal cheat in comparison with the previous games where you needed to invest some skill to have good results. Combined with instant conversion this is cheap, lazy and downright anti-logical.
Chaining down right creates a hierarchy. There are a lot of people who will never want to touch multiplayer because of extreme chaining. Also, it's not any cheaper than chaining much less so there are far more draw backs, and it is a lot less tedious. It shifts the focus of the game to other things, hero placement, army placement, city building, and heroes once again becomes more than a game of where should I place all of my heroes of the map. Town conversion isn't really anti-logical. Why should I, upon conquering something be able to make it my own faction type? Creature pools are no more illogical than chaining and additive movement.

Also, there are no real mechanisms to break chains built into any heroes game so this idea that chains can be easily stopped is rather moot and doesn't change the fact that you would still have to use the same tactic to get to a point where you can break their chain.  It is an incredibly centralizing game play strategy. Town conversion has a cost. I wouldn't be opposed to raising or even doubling it for castles. Heroes 6 has more game play variation in the beta on one multiplayer map than any competitive heroes 3 map.

Quote:
That's the thing, it just disposes of a large number of possible logistical issues and of the logistics as such, rendering it to a quasi-version of the Town Portal - not to mention that you also have Town Portal in addition to this, only that it is not totally free. It may offer some new approaches but strategically it is yet another simplification.
Town portals have MASSIVE resource costs. especially if you want to build both. It's hardly a simplification. Also, town portal existed before. To be frank, I don't see how making the game go faster is a bad thing, especially given how long heroes game have taken in the past. Some stream lining, town portals, pooled creatures, to help minimize tedious micromanaging doesn't hurt the game. Especially when the solve clearly broken aspects of other games, chaining. With chaining I can protect any town with my entire army. With this the best I can do is buy the creatures that are available in my garrison at the time for the dwellings that I happen to own in that particular area of control. It's totally no the same thing.

Making the game go faster does not equal simplification.Quite frankly, the heroes end game takes forever for absolutely no reason. There is a solid half hour to hour spent just prepping for the final battle. and even more time after that wasted allowing for more big armed scouts to go and kill left over castles and make the game just run faster.


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vaeledrin
vaeledrin


Adventuring Hero
posted July 14, 2011 04:25 AM

I missed the memo, why is simplification bad again?


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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted July 14, 2011 04:41 AM

An idiotic strategy chaining is.
The game is not even meant to work with,at least not in my eyes.

If anything,a hero represents an army.The heroe's/heroine's movement points represent the movement of an entire army.Now,if somebody switches army,how can that one guy move an entire army that is tired?
That was just the logical part.

Gameplay wise,creating 7 heroes in order to defend your other castle that is just going to be attacked with a full army is not only crap,its basic reason never to enter playing online games because people will exploit this joke of a tactic to get an edge over you.

I would have removed adding heroes from tavern completely.Introducing some kind of henchmen that are able to do the same thing as a hero but without army switching and lowered creature slots would fix this,kinda(I did not think of this for too long,its just a thought).

Now,adding town portal was not a good idea because it does the same as as crap as chaining.It basically enables a camping noob to defend all of its castles.
I see things like "No town portals" already in front of my eyes.


After chaining, increased hero movement and randomness would be removed,Homm will never be a real competitive game.




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Razorphilia
Razorphilia

Tavern Dweller
posted July 14, 2011 04:45 AM

"You are wrong."

No, I was simply saying that chaining is not difficult. You figure out where you want to be able to send troops, figure out how far apart to stand heroes, and you stand them there. Figuring out what distance to stand them apart takes a while, but then after that you're just standing heroes around.

"Judging perfectly what troops, skills, spells and stats you need to fight certain fights, fight them as soon as possible, which requires to get there as soon as possible, is the key."

Deciding where to send troops is important, but once your chain is set up, it doesn't matter. "Oh, I sure wish I would have sent my troops to reinforce the East instead of the West. Oh good, I can just toss them between all these guys standing around." What skills, spells, and stats you need does not matter this much. You have a big massive army that can be wherever you want and roll over creeps. There's no strategy left. Then you either take 100 years guerillaing the other player or you have a gentleman's battle somewhere in the middle.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 14, 2011 06:42 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 06:50, 14 Jul 2011.

Quote:
"You are wrong."No, I was simply saying that chaining is not difficult. You figure out where you want to be able to send troops, figure out how far apart to stand heroes, and you stand them there. Figuring out what distance to stand them apart takes a while, but then after that you're just standing heroes around.


You are again wrong . Chaining is not only how far apart and where are your heros, but takes in consideration the strength, movement and spells of each one, thus they will be able to succeed in their tasks. You have to deal with a lot of factors, and think 5-6 days in advance. It adds deep to the game and makes the difference between boring players and brilliant players. If it is removed, they have to find a damn good compensation, as I hardly see any Heroes veteran touching a H game without chaining.

Quote:
What skills, spells, and stats you need does not matter this much. You have a big massive army


Chaining does not matter when you have a big massive army, but when you don't have it. Being able to take with your first day troops several crypts, mines and chests around, get angels day 7, have several towns by day 3-4, this is the result of chaining.

Chaining is making a game dynamic. Take a look at Civilization, which is a great game. No chaining, no one is playing MP, too long and boring games. You move one step, end turn, then move again, end turn.
The advantage over Heroes is that you can have infinite units, so this replace the chaining. But in Heroes, with only 8 peps running around, it would very fast become tedious and without much action.
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