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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Questions about religion
Thread: Questions about religion [ This thread is 95 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 ]
Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted July 14, 2011 10:49 AM
Edited by Seraphim at 11:19, 14 Jul 2011.

Questions about religion

Yes,I know that there are a billion threads about religion,but apparently there are no answers to reilgious questions .




I want to raise this scenario ,if somebody who is depressed commits suicide because he/she has PTSD or some other disorder,will he/she go to hell?

Or take euthanasia as an example.If somebody chooses to end his/her life because of unbearable pain,will he/she be cast to hell?

Why does god give diseases?
Why did god allow humans to eat "The apple of eden"?
Why cant he interfere with human free will?

Why did he create diseases in the first place?
Why cant he help this world?You see 50,80 and someties 150 people die everyday as by television? One might say that humanity brought such despair to itself.If so,how does believing in god aid in  such matters when "Pain brought by humans" is irredeemable.



Power corrupts.Absolute power corrupts absolutely.Could this be an indication that "God" is corrupt?
If he is not "Human" and we cannot understand him,how does the bible make understanding him possible?
If we dont know anything about the divine,how do we know there is exactly one God?

How do religiious people explain dinosaurs,that about 5 major extinction events occured in the past and that the Human is a joke of creation in comparioson to dinosaurs.
160 million years dinosaures reigned this planet.The modern human dates back to 200k years before, 0.2 milions of years.

This is it for now.

I am not aiming to insult any religous person here.Dont get touchy.

Anybody?

Edit: Dome mistakes here and there,but tiz iz teh internetz.


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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted July 14, 2011 10:58 AM

And you call yourself Seraphim...

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted July 14, 2011 11:00 AM

Quote:
And you call yourself Seraphim...


Isn't that irony?
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LionoftheNorth
LionoftheNorth


Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
posted July 14, 2011 11:02 AM - penalty applied by Corribus on 14 Aug 2011.
Edited by Corribus at 00:40, 14 Aug 2011.

Good and kindness is not the same thing. Also material standards does not equal to immaterial standards. Sometimes a sickness or a catastrophe can give a person a meaning in life, or improve one's spiritual life. Without darkness there wouldn't be light.

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 14, 2011 11:10 AM

Quote:
Why cant he interfere with human free will?

It can, it doesn't.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted July 14, 2011 11:12 AM
Edited by Seraphim at 11:26, 14 Jul 2011.

Quote:
Good and kindness is not the same thing. Also material standards does not equal to immaterial standards. Sometimes a sickness or a catastrophe can give a person a meaning in life, or improve one's spiritual life. Without darkness there wouldn't be light.


...and most times a sickness destroys a family and gets everybody there in a depression,destroying all meaning to life.

Can you explain what is an immaterialist value?Love?


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Markkur
Markkur


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Onward through the fog!
posted July 14, 2011 11:13 AM
Edited by markkur at 11:32, 14 Jul 2011.

My 1 1/4 cents

I'm sure you know that Faith is belief.

My belief is that God has more compassion then I do. If I can understand that people can be ill in many different ways and try to comfort and not condemn? I also believe, I am running a distant second (to God that I believe exists) in all issues like this.

About the evil in this world. My short belief is that when "I've" wished for a perfect world I had no clue what I was asking for.

I, in a sense was wanting a robotic world where life is not really life at all.  To feel the heat, enables me to feel a slight breeze. My ideal temp is 75. What if it were always 75?, anytime, any day, any year. In the end what would that be to live? Nothing that I want. No need for some of my senses.

To know sorrow makes it possible for me to get the sweetness of joy. To me...on and on this goes. <imo> the fullness of life is all of it, the good and the bad, remove one half and it will cease to be the dynamic reality that I call "living".

Edit=
I'll also "reply" to the disease question. Not speaking for God but where I've landed with it.

I have a nasty one and in fact it is killing me. Never would I say God did this to me. I live on what once was a pristine planet and have bring drinking polluted water, breathing corrupted air and eating food from tainted soul all my days. Me and others like me (or worse) did all of this fine earth modification in the name of Mammon.

I "eventually" understood what happened to me in this fashion; I willingly made "money" by working with dangerous chemicals, all the  while living in a world that focuses on the gold and not the concept of "cause and effect" that most can chant in their sleep. This combined to take my ignorant self...down.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted July 14, 2011 11:13 AM
Edited by DagothGares at 11:32, 14 Jul 2011.

Vaguely universalist man spekaing

I'll try and answer what I can from what I remember from religion class. It's been two years ago at the least and I'm not a devout person. I believe in something vague and a lot of my beliefs concerning religion stem from my catholic upbringing and my utter lack of faith in the divine through personal disappointment.

Quote:
I want to raise this scenario ,if somebody who is depressed commits suicide because he/she has PTSD or some other disorder,will he/she go to hell?

Or take euthanasia as an example.If somebody chooses to end his/her life because of unbearable pain,will he/she be cast to hell?
In catholicism (and really, most others), yes, because, even though God gave us free will, we can't express our individuality in its uttermost extreme direction for some arbitrary reason.

People are also very vague on what hell looks like and some religious people theorise hell don't exist and we all go to heaven one way or another. Personally, I like to believe there is no afterlife.

I'll paraphrase Chuck Palahniuk: "I think the notion of an afterlife is just another form of procrastination."

Quote:
Why did god allow humans to eat "The apple of eden"?
Free will. Man is free to condemn himelf, though the apple is more of a blessing, because it gave us intelligence.

Quote:
Why cant he interfere with human free will?
God wants people to figure everything out on their own and him interfering will not help. I think this is the reason as explained to me, but religion teachers were always very vague about why there is suffering, if there's an omnipotent and benevolent being that is omnipresent.

I choose to believe that, if he's there, he just doesn't care.

Quote:
Why did he create diseases in the first place?
To punish sinners. At least, that's the Old Testament explanation.

I think diseases are just another form of life.

Quote:
Why cant he help this world?You see 50,80 and someties 150 people die everyday as by television? One might say that humanity brough such dispair to itself.If so,how does believing in god aid in  such matters when "Pain brought by humans" is irredeemable.
Free will and, really, God hardly cares for us.

Quote:
Power corrupts.Absolute power corrupts absolutely.Could this be an indication that "God" is corrupt?
This corruption implies some form of relativity, but since God is absolute and the norm of the cosmos (if you believe in him), that means he can't be corrupt.

One may argue that he's grown quite distant from his runty children since the OT-days, though.

Quote:
If we done know anything about the divine,how do we know there is exactly one God?
Humanity can touch the divine through inspiration, our intelligence, the apple, if you will, so your premise is false.

But t answer your question:
We figure that God is something so universal and omnipresent, it's better to see it as a whole, rather than put everything in separate and arbitrary categories.

Quote:
How do religiious people explain dinosaurs,that about 5 major extinction events occured in the past and that the Human is a joke of creation in comparioson to dinosaurs.
Last I heard, catholicism was totally cool with evolution and all that jig and I can't speak for the... Hard-liners and creationists, suffice it to say I hold a low opinion of them.

I never really understood why evolution goes against the bible. Even the head of my old Jesuit school said that: "believing in a big, bearded man in the sky who created everything with his hands is just stupid. The bible has a lot of symbolic meaning, etc etc."

Also a quick note: One of the first the Big Bang theorists was a Belgian Roman Catholic priest.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted July 14, 2011 11:22 AM

Quote:
To know sorrow makes it possible for me to get the sweetness of joy.

I'm not sure I accept as axiomatic that you have to know pain to know pleasure.  Convince me.
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Markkur
Markkur


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Onward through the fog!
posted July 14, 2011 11:41 AM
Edited by markkur at 19:22, 14 Jul 2011.

Quote:
I'm not sure I accept as axiomatic that you have to know pain to know pleasure.  Convince me.

I doubt that is possible.

Here is something <imo> very akin. Ever lived through a night of storms that you thought would never end? (in this example, meaning real storms on the outside)

Well, one morning after a night when I would have bet dollars to doughnuts that Thor was trying to hit me with his boltz for about 6 hours, that morning sky, seemed like it was brand new to me. The stillness that was everywhere was...arresting. This event was on the heels of me dashing off to work for weeks or longer as a man without eyes and ears and not seeing that "every morning"... there is a beautiful world about me.

Edit= For fun, I thought I would toss this in as well. The vehicle. The one I drove at the time.

A "4-Runner" and it suffered the same fate as most any object I have owned.

I saw something I wanted and got it. It felt good. I would see it's reflection as I drove it or feel-it as I played-it, or see-it as I spun-it. However the thing was meant to be experienced.

Back to the wheels.
Felt the steering wheel. Smelled the leather interior. Polished the paint. Looked at it quite often. All of the common meanings of "new to me"

When enough time passed...auto-pilot/cruise-control had slowly taken over and soon I could go from A to B in the thing and not only didn't see the vehicle anymore, on the trips, I no longer saw the scenery that passed outside its windows. I might as well have been using the transporter room on the Enterprise. Beam me up to work Scotty
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted July 14, 2011 11:53 AM

Quote:
Quote:
To know sorrow makes it possible for me to get the sweetness of joy.

I'm not sure I accept as axiomatic that you have to know pain to know pleasure.  Convince me.


Go to law school.  Leave law school.  Life will be much more pleasurable.  
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted July 14, 2011 12:01 PM

Markkur, what I'm getting at is the following -

Often we hear it said that the terms "evil" and "good" are not useful when treated as isolated concepts.  That is, evil has no relevance until it is compared to something good.  I don't really like using terms like "good" or "evil" to begin with , but even so - I at least can see that one really cannot exist without the other.  You need the contrast provided by one term to really define the other one, that is, they're not independently definable.

I'm not sure this can be said about pleasure and pain.  For one thing, as biological responses they are at least partially separate (different receptors, different chemicals, etc).  A clinically depressed person can, for example, still feel pleasure - for instance when they eat.  Even on a metaphysical level, however, I'm not sure someone who has never been sad cannot say they feel happy.  Certainly I think the bad times can make us place a higher value on the good times, but as a purely biological response I don't think you have to have had to break a leg to feel an orgasm, or lost a loved one to cancer in order to be happy about the new BMW 7-series you just got as a gift.


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Markkur
Markkur


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Onward through the fog!
posted July 14, 2011 12:19 PM
Edited by markkur at 19:25, 14 Jul 2011.

Quote:
I'm not sure this can be said about pleasure and pain.


I cannot say that it can be said for everyone. I hope that I have been always careful enough to clearly state that this is my belief. Within me there is the same contrast in good and evil...also within most all aspects of life.

Love and Hate, happy sad, tall short. "One helps define the other"

<imo> My human nature is very undesirable to "me" at times. I will make no judgment on how another soul determines these things. I can only rest "somewhat" on what is logical or reasonable to me, through my own personal experiences and admittedly filtered through my value system.

To say this another way, I become tolerant (in-tolerant I suppose) to say...love. At some point I return to the lesson. It seems to me, always striving...never arriving. Btw, that's a good thing to me. I'm not at final defeat...I'm yet growing.

I think all of this is linked in like fashion. Clearly anyone who disagrees with my grand-view, will find no logic nor reason in anything I share.
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LionoftheNorth
LionoftheNorth


Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
posted July 14, 2011 12:48 PM - penalty applied by Corribus on 14 Aug 2011.
Edited by Corribus at 00:40, 14 Aug 2011.

Quote:
Quote:
Good and kindness is not the same thing. Also material standards does not equal to immaterial standards. Sometimes a sickness or a catastrophe can give a person a meaning in life, or improve one's spiritual life. Without darkness there wouldn't be light.


...and most times a sickness destroys a family and gets everybody there in a depression,destroying all meaning to life.

Can you explain what is an immaterialist value?Love?

That's an example yes. Many (including myself sometimes) of us middle class westerners who are comfortable with our own lifes, feel a lack of a higher meaning. This is a lack of immaterial values. I remember a discussion about adoption where the point was made that a boy in an African village can have a much better life (immaterially) as the beloved future of his village than as world of warcraft-addict in a western country with high material standards.

I also think of the infamous prosperity theology practised by several protestant sects. To a point they are right. God gives a good life to His followers, but not necessarily a good life by material standards. Many catholic saints tells of a wonderfully happy life, with very little or none material processions at all. It depends on your calling in life. A good example is the sickly saint Saint Teresa of Jesus, who died very young, but in peace, knowing that she had done what good she could in this life.

To answer your question about suicides: God knows what made the person in question take her own life. If she could not know that she did wrong (by mental illness or lack of understanding), she lacked the intention to sin, and thus have not sinned.

Also: nice to have another catholic here!

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted July 14, 2011 12:52 PM

You gotta love the philosophy of leading a better life through suffering.

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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
KHORNATE
posted July 14, 2011 12:54 PM

Quote:
If she could not know that she did wrong (by mental sickness or lack of understanding), she lacked the intention to sin, and thus have not sinned.

Can this be applied to other sinful acts as well?

Let's say a psychopath with no concept of morality rapes and kills a bunch of people, he is not aware that he has done anything wrong, has he not sinned?
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LionoftheNorth
LionoftheNorth


Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
posted July 14, 2011 01:00 PM - penalty applied by Corribus on 14 Aug 2011.
Edited by Corribus at 00:41, 14 Aug 2011.

Quote:
Quote:
If she could not know that she did wrong (by mental sickness or lack of understanding), she lacked the intention to sin, and thus have not sinned.

Can this be applied to other sinful acts as well?

Let's say a psychopath with no concept of morality rapes and kills a bunch of people, he is not aware that he has done anything wrong, has he not sinned?
Not sure if a psychopath doesn't understand that what he's doing is wrong, but your logic is correct. Through he should still be protected from the society. This probably means spending a life time at a forensic psychiatry hospital.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 14, 2011 01:21 PM

Isn't the more interesting question this:

If somehow the world with all its flaws is a perfect creation - then why is the afterlife supposed to be devoid of it? If happiness is not possible without sadness - then why is sadness supposed to be absent in the afterlife?

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted July 14, 2011 01:27 PM
Edited by Elodin at 13:28, 14 Jul 2011.

@ Seraphim:

It is better to ask only a question or two at a time otherwise people who answer you wind up with rather long posts. Anyways, I may not get to all the answers in this post but I'll try to answer more later if I don't.

Quote:

I want to raise this scenario ,if somebody who is depressed commits suicide because he/she has PTSD or some other disorder,will he/she go to hell?


Or take euthanasia as an example.If somebody chooses to end his/her life because of unbearable pain,will he/she be cast to hell?



1) Suicide is self murder. Every life belongs to God and your life is not yours to take. The Bible clearly states that all non-repentant murderers go to hell.
Quote:

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and snowmongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



2) Suicide is a repudiation of faith. It is saying that the life God gave is not worth living and that God can offer you no hope or consolation in your circumstances.

Quote:

2 Timothy 2:11-13  (New King James Version)

11 This is a faithful saying:

     For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
      12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
     If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
      13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
     He cannot deny Himself.



God has promised that he will not allow us to be in circumstances that we are unable to bear and has promised us aid if we turn to him.

Quote:

1Co 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.



3) God holds people accountable based on the degree to which they were aware of what they were doing. Will anyone be let off the hook for killing themselves? I can't say for certain. But everyone who kills themselves deliberately knows what they are doing so some extent.

Quote:

Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.



Quote:

Why does god give diseases?

Why did he create diseases in the first place?



God seldom "gives" diseases though it can't be ruled out that they may come as a result of God's judgment on sin. Disease is ordinarily the result of just natural causes.

I can't say what the purpose of God creating germs that attack human beings is. I can say that the whole world is under a curse because of man's sin.

Quote:

Why did god allow humans to eat "The apple of eden"?
Why cant he interfere with human free will?



God created man as a free moral agent, able to make his own decisions. He did not create a race of robots.

God can interfere with man's free will but  chooses not to do so. He says to choose good but does not force you to choose good.

Quote:

Psa 34:14  Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.



Quote:

Why cant he help this world?You see 50,80 and someties 150 people die everyday as by television? One might say that humanity brought such despair to itself.If so,how does believing in god aid in  such matters when "Pain brought by humans" is irredeemable.



God can and does help the world. God has also told man to do good. Man is to be a co-laborer with God. My counter question is what are you doing to help others? Much of the suffering in the world is caused by man living in a manner that God said not to.

There is coming a day, the Day of the Lord when Jesus returns to right every wrong. The Day of Judgment. After that the curse will be lifted and the righteous will suffer no more.

Quote:

Revelation 21
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”




Quote:

Power corrupts.Absolute power corrupts absolutely.Could this be an indication that "God" is corrupt?



First, the axiom that absolute power corrupts is not true.

Second, God is a perfect moral being. He is incorruptible.

Quote:

Romans 1 (NKJV)
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Hebrews 13:8 (NKJV)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.



Quote:

If he is not "Human" and we cannot understand him,how does the bible make understanding him possible?



God has revealed himself to man through the words of the Bible and by various other means.

God's ultimate revelation of himself was when he began to exist as the man Jesus Christ. Look at the life of Jesus and you see God.

Quote:

1 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV)

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

     God[a] was manifested in the flesh,
     Justified in the Spirit,
     Seen by angels,
     Preached among the Gentiles,
     Believed on in the world,
     Received up in glory.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;



Quote:

If we dont know anything about the divine,how do we know there is exactly one God?



Who doesn't know anything about the divine? You?

God has revealed himself to man though the words of the Bible and various other means, His revelation as Jesus Christ for example.

God also reveals himself to individuals though his "still small voice" as they seek him honestly and diligently. It is rare to have a theophany, a personal visitation form God directly manifesting himself to a person. I have never seen God in that manner. I have see an angel on one occasion.

It makes no sense that there are multiple "supreme" beings. Multiple "gods." Supreme means supreme. There is only one God.

Quote:

How do religiious people explain dinosaurs,that about 5 major extinction events occured in the past and that the Human is a joke of creation in comparioson to dinosaurs.
160 million years dinosaures reigned this planet.The modern human dates back to 200k years before, 0.2 milions of years.



I'm not a young earth creationist. Perhaps you may wish to visit a website by such people.

Christians proposed evolution long before Darwin came along. But a theistic evolution rather than an evolution based on chance.

Oh, and can you PROVE evolution took place? Nope. It remains a theory.

My question to you. How did the universe produce itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing? I want  the First Cause. If you say a singularity, what caused the singularity?

Another question: How did life come from inanimate matter? Prove your answer please.


Quote:

...and most times a sickness destroys a family and gets everybody there in a depression,destroying all meaning to life.

Can you explain what is an immaterialist value?Love?



Really? Provide a link to your source that says sickness usually destroys a family. That has not been my experience at all. Usually a family rallies around their sick loved one and pulls together to help the sick person. They take turns sitting with the person or ministering to them as needed.

Now, such circumstances can also show the ugliness in a person. For example a family member who does not love the sick person may refuse to help and may become hostile of other family members question that. That is not a fault of the sickness but a fault in the human heart.

The sick person himself can develop a better character if he goes through his trials with a proper attitude.

I don't really understand your second question.

Love is immaterial and makes no sense in a world that is purely materialistic (devoid of God.)  I'm not talking about erotic love.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted July 14, 2011 01:33 PM

Quote:
Isn't the more interesting question this:

If somehow the world with all its flaws is a perfect creation - then why is the afterlife supposed to be devoid of it? If happiness is not possible without sadness - then why is sadness supposed to be absent in the afterlife?


Christianity certainly does not teach the world is a perfect place. It teaches that when man sinned the world became subject to a curse.

When Christ "makes all things new" there will be no more curse, pain, sickness, or death.
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