|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
posted April 06, 2013 03:23 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 15:24, 06 Apr 2013.
|
Quote:
Yes, but some of those men, in my opinion, were inspired by God. Muhammad wasn't.
That's just arbitrary and not any different than saying "this I like, that I don't like". You can't have a serious discussion with such starting position.
As for the similarities - you should check closer, it's not only the flood. The concept of The First Man, the struggle between good and evil, the ultimate victory of good and the Heavenly Kingdom, the concept of Hell and the eternal tortures - none of these is a Christian invention. While the Christianity does have its original ideas, it's foolish and uneducated to claim that it came out of nowhere as opposed to the Islam which came out of the Christianity. And before you start - it's the same story with Judaism.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 03:23 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 15:25, 06 Apr 2013.
|
Wrong. You said
Quote:
Islam was in no way a sequel, it was a supposedly new religion meant to have its own supporters and places of worship. Hardly a sequel.
That is not your personal faith, it is a historical claim, so I objected to THAT.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 03:25 PM |
|
|
Very well, I rest my case. Pointless argue since you and zenofex don't believe in any religion and I do, really. We have no common ground.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 03:34 PM |
|
|
|
That's not the point. Believing is one thing, proving is another. You tried to prove something, not to say that you believe in it.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 03:36 PM |
|
|
There is no objective proof for any religion. Only subjective. I tried to prove islam is a copycat, you reply by saying judaism is. That doesn't make islam any less of a copycat in my opinion.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 03:44 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 15:45, 06 Apr 2013.
|
@JJ
Quote:
I think you are wrong here, because it doesn't matter what, in your as a human limited SINGLE-MINDED view of the material world, you BELIEVED was true or right. Of course, after-life would heighten your awareness, so what was left would be real (not imagined) grief and pain.
Well, when I said human psyche is more sophisticated than that what I was trying to emphasize was, it's not usually a one dimensional situation of giving pain or not giving pain. Skip extreme examples like Hitler, Jack The Ripper or Justin Bieber... Man cheats on his wife, she gets crushed, but she's been neglecting him for many years. They married each other too young, they were not right for each other. Man says he never planned on cheating , it just happened and they are in love. Here's a -quite regular- situation with lots of emotional pain, breaking of marital rules, and dishonesty. What happens in your emotional payback purgatory?
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 03:46 PM |
|
|
This was an interesting discussion. Good day to both of you, 'll add my thoughts again if I feel I should on a different matter.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 03:49 PM |
|
|
Quote:
There is no objective proof for any religion. Only subjective. I tried to prove islam is a copycat, you reply by saying judaism is. That doesn't make islam any less of a copycat in my opinion.
All current religions are "copycats". You however seem to think that yours isn't, which is incorrect, hence the last two pages.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 03:53 PM |
|
|
There was a page listing the copycat claims of Christinaity and debunking them. But of course those were written by a Christian and that's not objective and so on... pointless.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 04:03 PM |
|
|
|
Link? Oh, wait, if you mean some of Elodin's posts, don't bother.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 04:07 PM |
|
|
No, I don't mean Elodin, what's wrong with his posts, anyway? it's his opinion. I won't go any further in this. You choose what to believe or not, I have no irrefutable proof in that site I mentioned either.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 04:26 PM |
|
|
Quote:
@JJ
Quote:
I think you are wrong here, because it doesn't matter what, in your as a human limited SINGLE-MINDED view of the material world, you BELIEVED was true or right. Of course, after-life would heighten your awareness, so what was left would be real (not imagined) grief and pain.
Well, when I said human psyche is more sophisticated than that what I was trying to emphasize was, it's not usually a one dimensional situation of giving pain or not giving pain. Skip extreme examples like Hitler, Jack The Ripper or Justin Bieber... Man cheats on his wife, she gets crushed, but she's been neglecting him for many years. They married each other too young, they were not right for each other. Man says he never planned on cheating , it just happened and they are in love. Here's a -quite regular- situation with lots of emotional pain, breaking of marital rules, and dishonesty. What happens in your emotional payback purgatory?
The "payback" isn't a payback, but a "turnaround". They would just switch perspective, so-to-speak - re-live things from the other's point of view. Obviously that would make things quite clear for person-to-person things, because they would know first-hand how it was for the other, and I don't think that would leave much to be said in cases like cheating and these kinds of hurts.
In extreme cases it would actually be the same turnaround - every victim would re-live Hitler (understanding what motivated him), while he would re-live all the pain caused by him (and what a penalty that was).
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 04:59 PM |
|
|
Quote:
And since we are at poppycock - Quote:
When a person dies and goes to be with Christ he sees Christ as he is and is transformed into a morally perfect being like Christ. He will recognize that everyone made their choice and that everyone is responsible for their own destiny. People in heaven won't have "survivor's guilt."
Jesus Christ, what kind of a human are you? A morally perfect being like Christ will suddenly lose interest in the fate of their children? That is supposed to be "morally perfect"?
I'm the kind of human who is not stupid and who recognizes some people chose to be have darkened minds, shut their eyes, stop up their ears and refuse to let the truth in.
Just like Jesus said.
Quote:
Matthew 13 (NIV):
10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]
A person who chooses to be blind ill remain in eternal darkness. God seeks to save everyone but not everyone chooses to be savable.
Quote:
What you are describing is a brainwash - it sounds like being hooked on heroin, because that's what heroin does: taking away the emotional pain and giving you INDIFFERENCE.
Oh please. People on earth get hurt and move on with their lives. A human who has become completely perfect will live in bliss though others have chosen the path of suffering. Regardless, the Bible clearly states God will wipe away all of the tears of his people and there will be no more sorrows for them in their new life in complete fellowship of God, knowing him as clearly and as thoroughly as he knows us. Perfect fellowship, "face to face" in perfect harmony with our Creator/Father/Brother/Friend forever.
Your anger at God is misguided and your view of God is warped.
Quote:
1 Corinthians 13:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 John 3:2-3
New International Version (NIV)
2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Quote:
Quote:
Whatever sorrows we had about foolish decisions other made will be forgotten and left behind with the old life.
Right, yet more heavenly heroin - or are we now talking The Matrix?
Perhaps you need heroin to cope. I don't need it in this life or in the one to come. I have my God, a friend who sticks closer than a brother. 
Quote:
I knew punishment was important for you, but I didn't know it was the most important thing of all, if it even is great, when the good ones being brainwashed to forget the bad ones just to increase their eternal suffering. What a miserable, petty and negative vision.
Nah, punishment is not important to me. I pray for mercy for those who don't know Christ that they may come to the knowledge of the truth. God also takes no pleasure in the wicked choosing the path of destruction.
Quote:
Of course it's your decision what you chose to believe and whether you want to throw reason, love, humanity and everything outta the window in order to prostrate before a misogynic, homophobe, bloodthirsty, vindictive, vain monster - but don't try to sell this as something worthwhile to believe in.
Of course I'm not the one who throws reason out when it suits me. You loudly proclaimed "science is irrelevant!!!!" at least twice in the abortion thread to cling to the nonsensical idea that a baby in the womb (who has human DNA) is not a member of the human race in spite of embryology textbooks stating an embryo is a human organism. Following the truth where it leads seems not to be your path.
Sadly every discussion seems to invariably result in you ranting against Christianity and God, sounding like some irrational Dawkinite theophobe parrot who loudly and proudly proclaims his hatred and bigotry towards religion and religious people. I rally wish we cold have more civil discussions but you seem not to be interested in such a thing.
God proved his love by living a human life as Jesus Christ and sacrificing himself to make salvation possible for each person. Chose the path of salvation or the path of destruction. It is all up to each person which path he will walk.
____________
Revelation
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 05:17 PM |
|
|
Quote:
However let's face it, in today's world, it's impossible to have an intellectual contemplation or discussion about a notion as pathetic and cartoonesque as heaven and hell. If you try to achieve that you'll sink down with the ridiculousness of the concept yourself. No need to hunt down the paradoxes in some details, the thing itself is outdated and had been moved to the trash long ago.
Unfortunately for you, you have no proof of such a claims. There's not the slightest bit of evidence that God does not exist, heaven does not exit or that hell does not exist.
What is irrational is to think that existence created itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing. Or that the universe is eternal. Neither idea meshes with science so atheism can only be considered an irrational tiny cult.
Quote:
And the Christianity is a sequel to earlier religions and "copied heavily" from them. That's proven beyond reasonable doubt for anyone with above average historical knowledge and coherent logic. So?
Actually, I've proven that claim to be a false on several occasions on this very board. Not that many of the atheists here have any interest in truth.
Quote:
The problem is simply that the old religions, including the Christian one, are not appealing anymore, since, as you say, we've grown out of them.
Poppycock. Christianity is quite a large religion that has brought much good to the wolrd. Atheism is a tiny culta that has managed to murder more people in the last 100 years than all other religions combined for all of recorded history.
Quote:
Drakon I don't think you've studied your lesson well, first of all the time length between Judaism and Christianity is more than the time length between Christianity and Islam. Islam is 7th century, Moses is considered to live somewhere between 16th and 13th century B.C.
Ludicrous. The Christian church was born on the day of Pentecost about 40 days after the resurrection of Christ. Christianity is essentially Judaism under the New Covenant. Mohammed was born over 500 years after the death of Christ.
Quote:
Dude, that's your personal faith, I don't care about that.
And it is your personal faith that God did not inspire the New Testament writers. You are wrong.
Quote:
All current religions are "copycats".
Nope.
____________
Revelation
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 05:26 PM |
|
|
Atheism has been around for thousands of years, and responsible for many philosophical and scientific developments. Like any movement, it has had its fair share of evil characters. As atheism has no moral precepts, outside of natural morality and ethics, it is hard to say how their atheism influenced their behavior or the particular political and similar movements they chose to follow. It seems that no matter what philosophy or religion people profess, people will always do wrong, whether or not in the name of their faith.
Mao and Stalin both had dark hair. I conclude that their violence was due to having dark hair, instead of atheism.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 05:39 PM |
|
|
No one is saying they were evil because they were atheists, but we also can't deny that they were evil and they were atheists.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 05:40 PM |
|
|
Umm, there is one here who keeps saying they were evils because atheists. But now we know it was because of dark hair.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 05:43 PM |
|
|
No. They were evil because their names have more consonants than vowels... whatever reasons there are, atheism may have been one of them, but atheism is not the defining trait for evil people, in no way. It just implies one does not believe in any God or gods.
Personally, I don't think being an atheist is a good thing or a bad thing. You can be a good person and be an atheist the same way you can pretend to be religious but actually follow none of the commandments.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 06:53 PM |
|
|
@Artu sent me a strange HCM (20 posts limit) to forward:
"Elodin, Muhammed's claim to prophecy dates between 610–632 which is 7th century. If you are incapable of checking such a simple fact in the age of internet, I have nothing more to say about that.
Atheism is not a cult nor a group of people sharing the same ideology. It is simply the state of not assuming any God. And for the hundredth time, "you can't prove there is no god" is an absurd statement since God is not a falsifiable concept to begin with, it's like saying you can't prove I'm not thinking of the number 342 right now. The burden of proof is upon existence of things. And if we come to the tiny part, I already linked the statistics on that here, the world is not your puritan Texas and what if it was tiny? In the time of your beloved prophet, how many Christians were there?
About your biased links "proving" this or that, nobody takes them seriously but you, still I thought you'd feel a little bit of shame after the Hitchens link you provided turned out to be a taken out of context disinformation, guess not."
Me says: the rule of 20 posts would be beneficial here. 
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
|
posted April 06, 2013 07:01 PM |
|
Edited by Seraphim at 19:04, 06 Apr 2013.
|
Quote:
No. They were evil because their names have more consonants than vowels... whatever reasons there are, atheism may have been one of them, but atheism is not the defining trait for evil people, in no way. It just implies one does not believe in any God or gods.
Personally, I don't think being an atheist is a good thing or a bad thing. You can be a good person and be an atheist the same way you can pretend to be religious but actually follow none of the commandments.
So what does this matter here? Elodin derrailing the thread into another Atheists are inherently evil?
The original question was Would somebody go to hell if he/she did not believe in god. Answer: Yes. Elodin can surgarcoat it with his nonsense all he wants. No matter how good you are in life, if you dont believe in Jesus, according to christianity and many others, you go to hell.
But the simple fact that doing good in life is equated with faith in jesus/god/islamic prohet is immoral and disgusting.
The point was that this basically demolishes any moral highground theists have.
Is Islam a copy of christianity? Yes it is. Just as much Christianity is a copy of Judanusm. Its the same god, similar books, different Celebrtiy prophet.
You have an opinion and dont like to discuss facts? Well, then dont.
@Artu
I may be wrong, but I have seen people interpret phrases in the Quran that talked about killing unbelievers if they reject Islam.
I might have overdramatized it but i am pretty sure there is something of those lines written in Quran and some other "Controversial" things.
A new question about religion:
Is it fair to treat Islam the way the west does when there are "Simmilar" lines in the bible,torah aswell?
Afaik, there are lines of how to treat your slaves, murder people working on sundays and so on in the bible.
In that respect, none of the abrahamic religions have an actual morality argument.
As for fundamentalists. I would describe someone around here as fundamentalist that also loves gun.
In any case, if that someone was a muslim, he would be considered a terroist or a fundamentalist in the mainstream media.
____________
"Science is not fun without cyanide"
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
