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JollyJoker
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posted April 10, 2013 01:57 PM |
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What survival? The alternative to free will is an all time happy, eternal heaven. We're not kicked out remember. We won't have free will, but we will have minds and decisions. We'll still choose who to spend time with, what to enjoy etc etc. And if you come with the dialectic logic of good can't exist without bad (which actually applies to any ideal heaven), we'll have negativity enough to value heaven.
IF the alternative is all-time-happy heaven, free will is overrated because the alternative to free will is not being a mindless robot.
That is the idea.
I think it's a silly idea, because what purpose would an all-time happy eternal heaven have? And what do you mean with, "we won't have free will, but minds and decisions? You either ARE the master of your fate or you are NOT. (Free will isn't so much a question of whether you have or imagine to have freedom of decision, but the question of whether everything is fated and determined - in this case the problem being the "all-knowing" aspect of god).
In short, the story of this idea is told in the Garden Eden. Happiness without Unhappiness isn't happiness, but uniformity, and uniformity is BORING. PARADISE is boring - one endlessly lame day after another, what's the purpose? People would start to wonder all kinds of things and eventually see that they ARE robots who have no chance to try something else, do something silly - what would that kind of "heaven" be worth?
Nothing.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 10, 2013 02:03 PM |
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Eve is not disturbed person! Same as death cap - story!
They would have to say no. And they would be free! The Tree of Life was a test.
So the eternal worship of God!  Because He taking care of us.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 10, 2013 02:14 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:06, 10 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
I think it's a silly idea, because what purpose would an all-time happy eternal heaven have?
That's another story, the opposition claims there was such a place, it worked and we are kicked out because God gave us free will. So, free will is such a valuable thing it is worth to send us to this earth and its conditions.
Quote:
and what do you mean with, "we won't have free will, but minds and decisions? You either ARE the master of your fate or you are NOT.
That's wrong. There is no absolute free will and the alternative is not mindless slave. We have a certain amount of decision field affected by our upbringing, subconsciousness, desires and weaknesses, the regime we live under, our social status, financial situation etc etc.
Edit
(20 post limit again, I'm tired of this limit snow and it is my last post for today)
Reply to jj's comment below:
Quote:
Free will has nothing to do with obeying or not, making decisions or not or being able to do whatever you want.
I don't think the problem is that we have totally different definitions of what free will is, (while in fact you can see that even in the simplest dictionary definition the concept IS related to decision making:
1. a. the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined
b. Compare determinism the doctrine that such human freedom of choice is not illusory
c. ( as modifier ): a free-will decision
2. the ability to make a choice without coercion: he left of his own free will: I did not influence him.
The problem is while you take the definition and question it around absolutes (do we have it OR NOT) I think it's existence is a question of degrees. In 19th century we had absolute Determinists who believed that, in theory, if an intelligence strong enough existed, it could have foresee every single detail in the future. That is one absolute side. On the other hand, we had mystics concluding that everything except our own existence is uncertain (that actually even dates back to cogito ergo sum in a way). While in fact the truth is things are determined up to a point and we have decision fields that are not based on absolute determinism (fate in religious terms)nor absolute free will. So I don't see anything wrong with relating decision making to free will (neither does any encyclopedia or dictionary).
(There is of course another -sidekick- problem in here, let's say I'm smoking in a windy storm and I made a computer so sophisticated, it can calculate every move of atoms and sub-particles in the air and tell me the exact movement of the smoke, for argument's sake, let's say this computer even overcomes Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Our brain will still evaluate the data coming from this computer as possibilities because it hardwired to do that after a point.)
P.S. This world as the heaven residents' Safari would make a good movie.
Edit 2: Dude, you always skip the fact that what you say is about the design in which we are TESTED, hence we are responsible or not. What I'm talking about is my answer to that design in which we are NOT TESTED. So the question of free will isn't necessarily based on absolutes. Even if we don't have it we have a field of decision making. I said dictionary and encyclopedia btw and I gave you the philosophical aspect of it too, don't act like I opened up dictionary and read about free will for the first time.
Edit 3: And Tsar, it was you who identified yourself as a Christian in earlier threads, you even said you loved the church and the community. Was it up to us to guess it was just a way of socializing for you or are you just trolling around.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 10, 2013 02:45 PM |
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You conveniently left out what free will is actually meaning (and it would seem that you mistake that for something else). Quote:
Free will isn't so much a question of whether you have or imagine to have freedom of decision, but the question of whether everything is fated and determined - in this case the problem being the "all-knowing" aspect of god.
Do you understand that? Free will has nothing to do with obeying or not, making decisions or not or being able to do whatever you want.
"Free will" is the opposite of "determinism". Because it's still an open question whether we do have free will or not - the religious side maintains, yes, sure (otherwise, how could we be accountable), while the non-religious side then asks, how can god be all-knowing if our fate is NOT already determined?
That is, free will SHOULD be able to surprise even god - and in fact, if everything was determined, the fate of Jesus was as well and that wouldn't have been an accomplishment.
Now, no matter, how you twist and turn, in this question there is only an either or. Determinism holds the position, that every human decision, in fact, every happening could be foreseen, if there were all informations available that guide these things.
SCIENTIFIC FACT, however is, that it is IMPOSSIBLE - eve for God - to know two complementary attributes of a particle at the same time, for example, position and impulse, which means, that it's impossible to get ALL information. Secondly, there are quantum processes in the brain as well, which ultimately means, that human decisions cannot be predicted with 100% certainty either, and in this material universe, that's a fundamental characteristic of it - it's STRUCTURED that way.
So that means no determinism.
Now, if I understand you correctly, paradise is when humans have an anti-evil instinct while god makes sure no adverse accidents can happen.
What if this world is just a sophisticated "matrix" where bored inhabitants of paradise experience something else than the eternal boredom of paradise? What if they MADE this world just for the purpose to flee heavenly bliss-boredom?
Not new an idea, yet a valid point.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 10, 2013 03:05 PM |
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Giant of humanity in the universe. Hm speaks volumes.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 10, 2013 03:46 PM |
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It doesn't matter what the dictionary says, because this isn't a problem of language, but of philosophy and it's not centered around whether we can always do what we want or whether we have to follow certain necessities in life.
It is centered around the question, whether, if we "decide" something, this decision is in fact "ours" or "fated" (by the gods, fate, the laws of atomic movements or whatever). The main thing was, that this question has been undecidable (at least until Heisenberg), because even if you BELIEVE in free will and that your decision has been free, the question was whether the decision was of your own making.
This, by the way, includes YOUR (simplistic) view on things.
Now, the main "moral" consequence is this: if our decisions are fated, we are not responsible - it WASN'T our decision, we merely fulfilled what had been determined already.
If, however, we DO have free will (and the future is open), then we ARE responsible (so it's immediately clear why a religion that holds everyone accountable MUST advocate free will (although this has obvious consequences for the nature of God that religions don't like).
In any case there is no middle ground here. Either you are basically a puppet or you are not. You cannot be half puppet and half free: either your fate is sealed or not. It can't be half-sealed.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted April 10, 2013 03:46 PM |
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Erm... what? If you believe in (the Christian) God, you also fully believe that there are such things as good and evil. That's the point of the whole religion, lad.
Not sure where you and Artu are getting the idea that my beliefs are at all associated with Christianity, I do not believe in the christian god, nor do I adhere to the teachings of the holy bible, I don't consider myself bound by any holy scriptures. I'm a theist.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 10, 2013 03:53 PM |
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Because to them most theists must also be Christians. They didn't take into account that you can be a theist without being Christian or Jewish.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Zenofex
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posted April 10, 2013 03:59 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 16:00, 10 Apr 2013.
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What I mean is that this:
Quote:
You don't have to believe in god to realize that there's no such thing as good or bad, it all depends on how you view a given situation, as a curse or a gift. Like the concept of a glass being half full or half empty.
... is a nonsense. If you believe in God, you'll be able to realize that there's no good and evil? Everything is relative? What kind of religion is this and what does it have to do with this whole discussion? And in the end - why do you need to believe in God to realize this when you can realize it even if you don't believe in God?  
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 10, 2013 04:09 PM |
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Because to them most theists must also be Christians. They didn't take into account that you can be a theist without being Christian or Jewish.
He claimed he was one earlier, Sherlock.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 10, 2013 04:16 PM |
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Did he? Show me a quote, please.
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gnomes2169
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posted April 10, 2013 04:22 PM |
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Because to them most theists must also be Christians. They didn't take into account that you can be a theist without being Christian or Jewish.
Well, not here at least, since the vast majority of people who do defend the idea of some kind of divinity tend to be christian on this message board. Unless you actually tell us you aren't, it's going to be an (often correct) assumption. Maybe not one people should make, but one that has proven reliable in the past.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 10, 2013 04:35 PM |
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Yes, but in Tsar's case, it seems it was incorrect.
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gnomes2169
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posted April 10, 2013 04:36 PM |
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Yes, but in Tsar's case, it seems it was incorrect.
Quote:
Maybe not one people should make
*COUGH COUGH COUGH*
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted April 10, 2013 04:38 PM |
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Good or bad differ from one individual to the next, hell even people change their own perceptions.
You're quite right though saying that if I believe in god then there must be an overriding definition to which all things are relative. Truth is, I truly believe that there is no such thing as good or bad, only good, for if god is truly is in control, then only the best can ever occur, which makes you wonder.
God doesn't punish, god doesn't teach, (directly/force) Why? Because knowledge that you find on your own you value so much more and hold close to your heart, god allows us to find the truth for ourselves, for the conclusion that we are to serve MUST be ours, a person that puts his heart into what he's doing is countless times more valuable than he who does not, or is simply told to fall in line
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 10, 2013 04:41 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:54, 10 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
Did he? Show me a quote, please.
Page 22 of this thread Tsar says:
Quote:
By being a means to an end shows that the merits of a religion vary from individual to individual. If I were to judge my religion from a collective standpoint I'd say that it isn't better than all the rest. While from an individualistic standpoint I'd say that it's everything to me, on the basis that it gives me the necessary support in order to achieve my goal. However I'm a theist, and occasionally like to associate myself with the Catholic church, despite their many flaws I greatly enjoy the atmosphere and the community.
Besides, flaws are good, for it were a perfect religion then you wouldn't be needed.
Quote:
He said he was a theist and that he OCCASSIONALLY associates himself with the Catholic church. He didn't say he was a Christian, just theist.
He says MY religion! Anybody reading that and not thinking he is a Christian has psychic abilities. By context, the occasionally refers to the institution of the Catholic Church, not the faith itself.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 10, 2013 04:46 PM |
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He said he was a theist and that he OCCASSIONALLY associates himself with the Catholic church. He didn't say he was a Christian, just theist.
By the way, excellent post Tsar 
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted April 10, 2013 04:49 PM |
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Associate myself as in pretend to be a member of the clergy, or their other branches, templars, inqusitors et cetera. I always found the Catholic church the be fascinating. Alas it's a path that I could never actually dare to take, on a serious level anyway.
I have Catholic friends and enjoy their company, and I always love religious occasions, (christian) but I am not of one mind with them.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Drakon-Deus
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posted April 10, 2013 05:07 PM |
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That's great. I chat with protestants on another forum but I'm neither protestant nor orthodox nor catholic. While I do follow the Bible I also have my own special ideas.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 10, 2013 05:53 PM |
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All very nice, but if everyone has their own religion - and it sounds that way - what makes you think you talk about the same things?
I mean, there are 3 general religions that worship the same god, two of those are split in myriads of differing cults - and the actual foundations are the same for all, except that the Jews have nothing except a version of OT, the Christians have the NT and the muslims have the Quoran.
Now, the OT or tora is the thing which describes "Godfather": Jahwe or Allah or the father of Jesus.
However, the OT is also the ONLY thing that talks about this godfather.
Logical question: can you cherry-pick what you "accept" there or not? Can you accept the NT and disregard the OT? Isn't it so, that if you doubt SOMEthing, you can doubt ANY- and EVERYTHING?
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This thread is pages long: 
