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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 10, 2013 05:13 PM |
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You wouldn't say that for a craftsman, though, right?
"The shoemaker in my road is awesome. It's just the shoes he makes that suck."
Logic fail.
He should (have) be(en) able to make shoes that don't suck, because if can't HE sucks as a shoemaker.
So, logically, if God made us AND we suck, then we suck, because God made us sucky, because since he can do whatever he want, he could have made us better.
So THAT in turn means, that if God made us - we may actually be exactly the way God wanted us to be, which would in turn mean, that either we are not sucky at all or God wanted us to be sucky.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 10, 2013 05:26 PM |
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God could've made us like robots, without a will of our own. But He didn't. And it was Adam and Eve who chose to disobey God and got thrown out of heaven.
But everyone can be saved throuh Christ Jesus and become greater than we are now.
I believe we ARE how God wanted us to be, only in the afterlife we'll be free from the bondage of sin that causes us to be unlike that.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2013 05:45 PM |
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Quote:
I repeat, Christians should look at the NT for guidance, not the OT which is mainly the letter of the old law. We no longer need the old law.
So you don't agree with some Christians and therefore you should not defend them. But you do, just to cover Christianity's big arse. 
Quote:
And it was Adam and Eve who chose to disobey God and got thrown out of heaven.
If Man Obeyed God.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 10, 2013 06:01 PM |
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As far as I know, Elodin agrees with me that Christians follow the New Testament. So try again.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2013 06:12 PM |
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I'm not talking about Elodin. I'm talking about following OT, which is pretty common, and about your disagreement with generalisation of Christians. I explained why I'm putting you on the same side as OT followers and you agreed that you're defending them.
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Of course I will defend another Christian, as we both try to explain the same things to atheists.
...so that's where all my talking comes from.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 10, 2013 06:32 PM |
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Quote:
As far as I know, Elodin agrees with me that Christians follow the New Testament. So try again.
Yeah, I quoted the Bible 'till I'm blue in the face to show Christianity is under the NEW Covenant, not the Old Covenant. But certain atheists continue to say,"Nuh-uh, nuh-uh, nuh-uh!!! Christians are too under the Old Covenant!"
But Jesus clearly stated he came to establish the New Covenant, and did so via his sacrificial death and resurrection. And of course the Old Covenant prophets predicted a New Covenant.
The sacrifice of Jesus was the last sacrifice in the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant is over. It has been fulfilled. Completed. It is a thing of the past.
For those who don't know, the word testament is the exact same word as covenant.
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Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 10, 2013 06:37 PM |
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When I said another Christian, I also said "as we both we try to explain the SAME things".
Maybe my wording was bad, I should've said "as long as"
Because me saying Christians are under the New Covenant and Christian Johnny B Goode saying he follows the Jewish laws is not "the same things"
So no, I don't defend any Christian who doesn't eat pork because the Old testament says so.
And I don't like to be labeled "defender" or "same as X", thank you. I am a Christian and that's all.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2013 07:44 PM |
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Hey, don't be so nervous. That's all I need. Good to hear you stating precisely your views about that. Thanks.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted May 10, 2013 07:58 PM |
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Quote:
he could have made us better.
So THAT in turn means, that if God made us - we may actually be exactly the way God wanted us to be.
@JJ,
I hope you can understand that if we ARE better,but don't KNOW/BELIEVE we are,than we will act AS IF we are not.
Let me give you example-a PERFECT actor plays before the audience his role/type of roles.
ONLY his tutor knows how perfect the actor is.
And the tutor wants him to show his PERFECTION by playing OTHER roles-not necessarily the bad guy.
The actor DISAGREES-he says he has reasons to play ONE AND THE SAME role/type of roles every time he is on stage.
So the question is-HOW WOULD THE AUDIENCE KNOW THE ACTOR IS PERFECT?
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 10, 2013 08:25 PM |
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God could've made us like robots, without a will of our own. But He didn't. And it was Adam and Eve who chose to disobey God and got thrown out of heaven.
I don't know how many times this question has to be asked before someone gives even a remotely logical answer: why did God give the humans free will if the only ultimately correct action that will not result in punishment is to obey him?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 10, 2013 08:38 PM |
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The logical conclusion would be that he prefers humans to adore him willingly, not forced (which is somehow proof that we were made similar to him, as we also have this behavior. OR a proof that his message is instead issued from an ordinary man imagination). Of course, not doing so, there are consequences to deal with, but he gave tools (quran, bible) which guide us and help to not get lost.
At least, this is how I see it.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2013 08:50 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 20:50, 10 May 2013.
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He didn't expect we would discover logic and use it in atheistic way, so it wasn't such a good idea after all.
Worse problem is why he could show up in the Bible, but he doesn't want to do it now. It would definitely make his work easy. Now it seems like he gave up.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 10, 2013 08:51 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
he could have made us better.
So THAT in turn means, that if God made us - we may actually be exactly the way God wanted us to be.
@JJ,
I hope you can understand that if we ARE better,but don't KNOW/BELIEVE we are,than we will act AS IF we are not.
Actually, that's what I've been saying:
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ask the impossible -> people fail and feel guilty -> shame -> denying the failure - > pretending -> bigotry -> self-deception
If you are expected to perform STELLAR, you'll just break ans suck.
But the simple truth is - NO one WANTS to suck. EVER. Humans want to suck only when they CANNOT succeed.
Zenofex nailed it perfectly with his last post:
Quote:
I don't know how many times this question has to be asked before someone gives even a remotely logical answer: why did God give the humans free will if the only ultimately correct action that will not result in punishment is to obey him?
Is it really so difficult to see that it's GOD who sucks?
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 10, 2013 09:04 PM |
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C.S. Lewis said he was upset with God for creating a world before he became a Christian. I think I understand why.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 10, 2013 09:04 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
God could've made us like robots, without a will of our own. But He didn't. And it was Adam and Eve who chose to disobey God and got thrown out of heaven.
I don't know how many times this question has to be asked before someone gives even a remotely logical answer: why did God give the humans free will if the only ultimately correct action that will not result in punishment is to obey him?
Also it has already been explained the only alternative to our current state isn't necessarily mindless robot, we could still have free will but not the urge to sin, just like a regular man don't have the urge to pedophilia or mass murder.
And what is this mumbling about the story of Genesis, OT is out of date according to you, remember? If not always, who decides when?
Another obvious question would be, if it is the New Testament that is so crucial, what's the fault of the people born before it during the 200-150 THOUSAND years, why were they spared of God's wisdom and if this spiritual awakening is so universal why is it still mostly a matter of culture and simply is determined by where you're born.
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God is awesome
Of course he is, everybody's imaginary friend is awesome.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 10, 2013 09:12 PM |
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It's not Genesis that's out of date, it's the old laws (don't eat pork, get circumsised, etc).
God is not imaginary, but I feel sorry for people with no imagination.
It matters when where and when you were born, but according to the New Testament, everyone has the natural law written in their heart.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 10, 2013 09:18 PM |
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Quote:
It's not Genesis that's out of date, it's the old laws (don't eat pork, get circumsised, etc).
Again, who decides that?
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God is not imaginary, but I feel sorry for people with no imagination.
Unfortunately for you, the idea of God does not require a very deep or rich imagination, on the contrary, it's the first thing that comes to mind. That's why cave men could come up with it.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 10, 2013 09:22 PM |
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The verses from Hebrews that Elodin quoted say that the old law has been accomplished and we have a new one. It doesn't say that Genesis is invalid.
I'm not talking about seeing thunder and thinking nature is god, I'm talking about writing stuff like Paul's epistles and writings of the early chruch fathers.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 10, 2013 09:25 PM |
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Yes, Homeros or Fuzuli are very inspiring writers too, nothing to do with Zeus or Allah though.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 10, 2013 09:27 PM |
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And they are not the same as the cavemen.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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