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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 24, 2013 05:04 PM |
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Quote:
I was a bit surprized that artu have read something from John's version(the begining)
I could have said what I said even if I had not read the Bible, since I was talking about a movie in which they quoted John but yes, I read it. Why are you surprised? It's a book and I read books. We heathens don't burn when we touch the Bible.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted May 24, 2013 05:12 PM |
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Quote:
We heathens don't burn when we touch the Bible.
Speak for your self! You have no right to represent us all... 
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Drakon-Deus 
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 24, 2013 05:20 PM |
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@ Hobbit
In the beginning of John's Gospel it says that the Word (jesus) was with God and the Word WAS GOD.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 24, 2013 06:02 PM |
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I'm asking about what Jesus said according to the Bible, not what the Bible says. I'm asking if Jesus himself was really speaking about himself as God, not if people who have written the Bible (inspired by God or not) did call him God or not.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 24, 2013 06:08 PM |
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Quote:
I'm asking about what Jesus said according to the Bible, not what the Bible says. I'm asking if Jesus himself was really speaking about himself as God, not if people who have written the Bible (inspired by God or not) did call him God or not.
Kind of a blank shot, since what they know about what Jesus said is all based on the Bible.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 24, 2013 06:10 PM |
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So what? Even if I assume that the Bible says only the truth, I'd like to know if Jesus really named himself God. That's all what I'm asking for.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 24, 2013 06:12 PM |
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Jesus said he was The Son of Man and the Messiah.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 24, 2013 06:12 PM |
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Quote:
So what? Even if I assume that the Bible says only the truth, I'd like to know if Jesus really named himself God. That's all what I'm asking for.
This part gave me a blue screen: according to the Bible, not what the Bible says.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 24, 2013 06:14 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 18:21, 24 May 2013.
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Quote:
Quote:
It has the various "I AM" sayings where Jesus claimed to be God ("I AM") himself.
Just being curious - did he say that he's actually God, not "equal to God", "son of God" or that he and "his father are one"? I can't find any verse where he says "I am God", but maybe I just don't see it.
You don't see it because you are "Bible illiterate." And I don't mean that as an insult. You are unfamiliar with Bible terminology and unfamiliar with the Old Covenant Scriptures that are a background needed to understand many references in the New Testament. Here are some of the references to Jesus claiming to be God.
Quote:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus saying "I and my Father are one" IS claiming to be God and the Jews recognized it as such.
God identified himself to Moses as "I AM."
Quote:
Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
All of the "I AM" sayings of Christ are claims to be God (I AM.)
Quote:
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jesus also was worshiped and received the worship. For example:
Quote:
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Joh 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
Joh 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
Joh 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
"Son of God" does not mean "God's male offspring." It means God existing in the flesh. God manifesting himself as a man. The prophets foretold the day God would manifest himself as a man.
Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:8, 11; 21:6; and 22:13. This is a direct reference to the Old Testament Scriptures and a clear claim to be God.
Quote:
Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am [he.]
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
When Jesus appeared before the High Priest Caiaphas and the Jewish Council before his crucifixion he claimed to be God.
Quote:
“‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven’” (Mark14:61–62).
In saying he is "The Son of Man” who would come “on the clouds of heaven” he was making an overt reference to the Son of Man prophesied by Daniel (Dan. 7:13–14.)
Quote:
Mar 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
Mar 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Mar 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
Caiaphas certainly recognized Jesus's claim to be God and ripped his garment in response. Caiaphas and the Council condemned Jesus to death for claiming to be God.
.Jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins. Something only God can do, and a claim that was not lost on the religious leaders.
Quote:
Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
Anyways, I think I have established Jesus clearly claimed to be God. And of course there are many, many other verses that make the claim. The whole "Jesus is Lord" confession of the church is a confession that Jesus is God (the LORD) and parallels the shema confession of the Old Covenant.
Quote:
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
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Revelation
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 24, 2013 06:30 PM |
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I'd just like to add...
Quote:
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in the fashion of a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death—even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in Heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 24, 2013 06:38 PM |
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 24, 2013 06:48 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 18:51, 24 May 2013.
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So, as you say, Jesus never literally said that he's God himself. It's the Jews and Christians that interpreted it in such way. They thought/are thinking that:
1.
Quote:
Jesus saying "I and my Father are one" IS claiming to be God
...which can be interpreted in many other ways;
2.
Quote:
"Son of God" does not mean "God's male offspring."
...which can basically be opposite;
3.
Quote:
Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I am,’ said Jesus.
is actually the same as "I am God";
4.
Quote:
Jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins. Something only God can do, and a claim that was not lost on the religious leaders.
...which actually also makes sense if we think that Jesus is only EQUAL to God, not that he's God himself (and that's what he said actually);
5.
Quote:
The whole "Jesus is Lord" confession of the church is a confession that Jesus is God
...which can also mean that there are two Lords by now.
So, simulating that I'm a Christian and I believe in the Bible, I think the most correct answer to question "Did Jesus say that he's God himself?" is more like "Maybe" than "Yes". There are some hints that he IS God himself, yet somehow he's not stating it clearly. Therefore, the divinity of Jesus is disputable despite of what the Bible says. Can we agree on that?
Are you familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses? They claim that there's nothing in the Bible about Jesus being God himself. They claim that Jesus is only God's creation, Son of God that went to the Earth to learn us about what God wants from us.
In that case, do you personally think that they can be associated with Christianity as most of Churches are? I'm not asking if you agree with them, but if you can say that they are Christians if they believe in what Jesus told, yet they are not associating him with God himself. I'm asking about your personal opinion since most of the followers I know would say they're not just because the Church told them so, but since you're a "free thinker", I think you can say something more about it.
____________
Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 24, 2013 06:56 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah interest what the people could say to real translation? "And Jehovah God said, I am Jesus whom you are persecuting." - Acts 26:15
A better translation is:
Quote:
Acts 26:15-20 (NIV)
15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied.
Although certainly when Saul was using the word Lord he meant Yahweh/Jehovah. Jews never pronounced the name of God and the acutal word used for Lord in the text is the Greek word, "kurios" so the Jehovah Witnesses have not technically translated the verse correctly although they capture the meaning of the passage in Jehovah/Yahweh identifying himself as Jesus to Saul.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 24, 2013 06:59 PM |
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@Hobbit
Because name and translation 
Yes "two Gods", but now what all about was Jesus.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 24, 2013 07:05 PM |
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@Hobbit
Since all of these "free thinking" conclusions are part of a cultural heritage, add to your investigation millions of "free thinking" Muslims who believe Jesus is the prophet of Allah, but to think of him as god himself is such a sin, Christians are disrespecting the prophet's message everyday with their rituals. I guess that's called being Quran illiterate.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 24, 2013 07:26 PM |
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Quote:
So, simulating that I'm a Christian and I believe in the Bible, I think the most correct answer to question "Did Jesus say that he's God himself?" is more like "Maybe" than "Yes". There are some hints that he IS God himself, yet somehow he's not stating it clearly. Therefore, the divinity of Jesus is disputable despite of what the Bible says. Can we agree on that?
Nah, the verses I quoted are clear claims to diety and the Jews recognized those claims and wanted to stone him for the claims.
Even I I had thrown out all the verses except the last passage I quoted I would have established Jesus claimed to be God.
When Thomas confessed Jesus to be God after his resurrection and fell at his feet to worship him Jesus said Thomas was blessed for making the confession. He did not say, "Whooooo now,I am not God, get on your feet."
You always say I am wrong about the Bible so I don't know why you even ask the questions of me. Well, I do have an idea but I shan't voice it.
Quote:
Are you familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses? They claim that there's nothing in the Bible about Jesus being God himself. They claim that Jesus is only God's creation, Son of God that went to the Earth to learn us about what God wants from us.
In that case, do you personally think that they can be associated with Christianity as most of Churches are? I'm not asking if you agree with them, but if you can say that they are Christians if they believe in what Jesus told, yet they are not associating him with God himself. I'm asking about your personal opinion since most of the followers I know would say they're not just because the Church told them so, but since you're a "free thinker", I think you can say something more about it.
According to the words of Christ if a person does not acknowledge him as "I AM" (God) the person will die in his sins.
Quote:
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
The church is built on the pillar that Jesus is the LORD (God/Jehovah/Yahweh.) Peter made the confession that Jesus is "The Christ, the Son of the Living God." That is, the human incarnation of God. That is the very foundation of the gospel. That in Christ God became a man to die for our sins.
So no, in my personal opinion since JWs deny the divinity of Christ they do not fit the New Testament definition of Christianity.
It is the blood of God (existing as a man) that was shed on the cross.
Quote:
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
"Jesus is LORD (Yahweh" is the confession of the church.
Quote:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 24, 2013 07:29 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 19:38, 24 May 2013.
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@artu: Do Muslims believe that Jesus is Son of God? Because Jehovah's Witnesses do, and that's the problem - if Christianity has to be about Jesus being God himself, not literal Son of God.
@Elodin:
Quote:
You always say I am wrong about the Bible so I don't know why you even ask the questions of me.
I never said you're wrong about the Bible. However, most of your "facts" are about interpreting the Bible in this or that way, therefore there always will be some questions.
About the discussion itself - thanks for your answer, it's definitely more clear for me now. Not that I'm convinced, but the Bible's fragment you quoted gives more clues.
Quote:
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
I'm still not sure if this is the final proof, but I won't argue more since it's more about faith in Trinity than facts, and I can't really argue with faith itself.
____________
Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 24, 2013 07:35 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 19:38, 24 May 2013.
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Quote:
Do Muslims believe that Jesus is Son of God? Because Jehovah's Witnesses do, and that's the problem - if Christianity has to be about Jesus being God himself, not literal Son of God.
Christianity teaches Jesus is divine.
Jehovah Witnesses teach that Jesus was the first created being of God, not that Jesus is divine. They say he existed as the archangel Michael before becoming incarnate as a man.
Muslims say Jesus was a prophet and lesser than Mohammed.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 24, 2013 07:40 PM |
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Quote:
Do Muslims believe that Jesus is Son of God? Because Jehovah's Witnesses do, and that's the problem - if Christianity has to be about Jesus being God himself, not literal Son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus is the messenger of God. They don't believe in his ressurection or that he is the embodiment of God. To them that's like claiming prophets are also Gods, shirk, the unimaginable sin of thinking a man or anything else can be the equivalent of God.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 24, 2013 07:43 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 19:46, 24 May 2013.
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