| Use of language regulation |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted August 15, 2011 03:03 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 15:04, 15 Aug 2011.
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What are you guys talking about? If you have nothing to add to the discussion please leave.
JJ just want certain words like the word for illegitimate child and slovenly woman to no longer be banned, and I agree with him.
He also don't want it to be censored when you write the word of a piece of art. Like when you refer to a song which has the name of a banned word. Which is imo a sensible request. But if we were to allow an exception to that, it would probably involve too many problems anyway, like the ones Corribus mentioned.
In short, my personal opinion is that the "censorship" is fine, but words like illegitimate child should be allowed.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 15, 2011 03:05 PM |
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I do agree with the illegitimate child because that's also a type of a sword and I'm annoyed when it autocensors the weapon's original name 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted August 15, 2011 03:07 PM |
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I agree but some sort of a regulation should be put in place so that only people with certain amount of posts (or qps) may be able to post the 'mild' profane words, my arguement. Then again the reason for thread seems hollow, erect a thread about art and I'll agree, but the request seems emty from my point of view. Sorry Jaba.
I don't know why you cant have ******* as simply illigitimate? We've always found ways around it (no CoC breach ofc), as for art, an exception may be made, but an art that is named *******? ,
Edit for Corribus: MILD dammit MILD!, by that I mean the words that are currently under discussion"!
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 15, 2011 03:50 PM |
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Rewarding people for being good community members and following the Code of Condcut by allowing them to ignore the Code of Conduct? Terrible idea. Maybe we should let Admirable users post pornography as well?
In any case, I can think of rewards I'd much rather have than the ability to cuss with impugnity. Then again, I've never felt like the profanity rules here are some kind of grave injustice.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted August 15, 2011 03:52 PM |
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Edited by meroe at 15:53, 15 Aug 2011.
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Whilst I understand the b**tard sword business, the 'slovenly woman' word isn't really required in polite normal conversation. Impling a woman is a 's**t' is offensive. But I could understand wanting to use the description 'snowty behavior' - which could refer to anyone of any sex.
The reality is most of the really offensive sexual words are reserved for women (hence Insanity's anger) and are in no way needed in this forum. And she was quite justified in her reasons behind why no-one in their right mind would want to use the 'N' word.
But I will reiterate what I said earlier, which I thought pretty much explained my stance. These words are insults and derogatory, purely invented to wound verbally, and bringing them into our normal everyday conversation is just too 'ghetto' and totally unnecessary. Why on earth would we want to start acting like that?
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted August 15, 2011 04:28 PM |
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@JJ
Quote:
I own a T-Shirt with the print "**** you, you ****ing ****" (except that there are no asterisks on the shirt, but the real thing). If you now scratch your head - it expresses an attitude, and a very one-dimensional one that fits quite well to the attitude.
Why on earth would you want to own a shirt like that and wear it in public?
Quote:
My first gripe is, when it comes to art. A Title is a title and when a song is named "It's all snow", it it's done for a reason. I think, we should be able to quote and cite examples of contemporary art, without using asterisks. It's like putting black bars over a painting - come on, it's ART, and asterisks are censorship.
How often does this issue even come up in the forum? The only thread I can think of at the moment is the "What are you listening to now?" thread. For this specific example, I don't think it would be worth modifying the rules.
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The second gripe is the fact that certain words should not be forbidden, since they should long have been cleaned from negative meaning, since that's a discrimination. Take the word for illegitimate child. Obviously, legitimate or not, today for children this is legally spoken no difference. So it SHOULDN'T even be an offensive word anymore. Consequently this word shouldn't be banned, if it's used to express the simple fact that someone IS an illegitimate child (and NOT a despicable person).
The same thing is true for most things that have to do with sex and sexuality. This "dimension" of language also - like the illegitimate child stuff - let's us take a look into our collective past when certain activities, attitudes, orientations and life styles were considered immoral and have begative meaning.
Neither b****** or illegitimate child are used today to describe a child of such circumstances. They are now referred to legally as a child born out of wedlock. Moving on, b****** has been used so extensively throughout modern times as an insult, I don't think it can be perceived as anything but an insult even in context.
You suggest that it not be censored "if it's used to express the simple fact that someone IS an illegitimate child (and NOT a despicable person)." So the word is OK to post in one context but not OK to post in any other context? How often do we discuss children born out of wedlock on these forums anyways? Not very often. On the other hand, insults fly around quite a bit and if that word was uncensored, I think it would be used primarily in that context.
Quote:
No word for the sex act should be considered "dirty". No word for the sexual organs should be considered dirty either. No word that discribes a certain life style should be considered dirty.
Take for example all words that are terms for women with an "immoral lifestyle". The fact that these words are considered offensive is a discrimination.
Example: s l u t. There are two meanings for this. It's a slovenly WOMAN, or a promiscuous WOMAN.
Name one reason why this word should be "banned". What meaning exactly makes this word a "snow" word? The problem with this is the combination of 1) woman; 2) slovenly; and 3) promiscuous which means that if you call someone that way it's always everything together: if you call a slovenly woman that way, it implies that she would also have sex with half of the town; if you call her that way to simply denote the fact that she is promiscuous, it implies that she is slovenly as well, so it's always negative. Add to that the fact that it's only women called that way, we face something like a language barrier that is actively conserving old ways of thinking.
We won't change anything by BANNING these things
Again, words to describe sexual acts would most likely NOT be used in that context. Do you hear how often the "f word" is thrown around in daily life? It's depressing how often people use without even pondering what the context is. "I had no ******* idea!" "He's a ******* jerk!" "I was at the ****** bar one night and this ****** guy came up to me and I was like 'what the ****, man?!'" As you mention below, it's used so often to fill as an unnecessary adjective or noun, its meaning rarely describes a sexual act. Unbanning it for the purpose of describing a sexual act but forbidding it in all other contexts, seems just as unnecessary as allowing uncensoring the works of art mentioned above.
As to the term s!#$, it's really obvious why it should be banned. I have never perceived it as a swear word but as a derogatory slam against women. For that reason, it should remain banned. We don't allow racial, ethnic, sexual slurs, or slurs in general. Why on earth would we allow the term "s!@#" to be thrown around freely?
You are correct, though, in that banning it will never change anything. But why should we allow it? Better yet, why would we allow a term that is only negative to women to be uncensored?
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Conclusion: I think, with language we should somewhat follow, what is, depending on the denomination of Christianity, either the second or the third commandment: "Do not take the name of the Lord IN VAIN." (Simply exchange the name of the Lord with words). We shouldn't use WORDS in vain, as my T-Shirt print does and as it is so common in everyday language. We shouldn't use a word that is a term for the sex act as a multi-purpose word that spices up sentences, filling blanks, expressing nothing except a disrespect for a couple of things.
But we SHOULD be able to use words according to their meaning.
Despite what I've posted above, I agree. However, let's face it; people are still going to be lazy, inarticulate, and have problems properly expressing their thoughts like mature adults.
My biggest problem with your proposal is that it is unnecessary. There are plenty of other words and phrases people could use to describe a situation or person. As I posted in another thread, fornication can be used to describe a sexual act. A s!#$ can be called a woman of ill-repute. B@#$%^ is a child born out of wedlock; you get the idea.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted August 15, 2011 04:44 PM |
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O.D just summed up the entire against side,  I agree.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted August 15, 2011 04:45 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 16:45, 15 Aug 2011.
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I'm not a prude. And yet while there are some reasonable points made in this thread, I will simply never be able to support the removal of the censor feature as long as I live, if only for the hilarity factor alone. "Snowty Ubisoft" and "snowing snow" are just indelibly charming to see.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2011 06:23 PM |
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Quote:
@JJ
Quote:
I own a T-Shirt with the print "**** you, you ****ing ****" (except that there are no asterisks on the shirt, but the real thing). If you now scratch your head - it expresses an attitude, and a very one-dimensional one that fits quite well to the attitude.
Why on earth would you want to own a shirt like that and wear it in public?
...
Again, words to describe sexual acts would most likely NOT be used in that context. Do you hear how often the "f word" is thrown around in daily life? It's depressing how often people use without even pondering what the context is. "I had no ******* idea!" "He's a ******* jerk!" "I was at the ****** bar one night and this ****** guy came up to me and I was like 'what the ****, man?!'" As you mention below, it's used so often to fill as an unnecessary adjective or noun, its meaning rarely describes a sexual act.
For EXACTLY the reason you name - and shich I lament as well. The print on my shirt is condensing this utter moronic mindlessness that comes with using a certain "indecent" for everything.
If you didn't watch the TV series DEADWOOD - you might call it Western with a bit of leeway -, you'll probably sit there with open mouth and listen to the dialogues (not to mention watching the events unfold). I'd give it a go, since it's really amazing. click me
Under "use of profanity", you'll find something interesting.
Anyway. Language is important, and what you need are WORDS to talk with, not definitions, like "child out of wedlock" or some such nonsense. Times are a-changing, offense doesn't need offensive words, and a word is JUST that. Not more, but also not less.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted August 15, 2011 06:59 PM |
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I agree with OD that we don't say *******, or other profane words enough for it to become a large enough concern to disable the language filter for them, and the few times we do use them, the definitions are sufficient to get the message across.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted August 15, 2011 07:12 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 19:14, 15 Aug 2011.
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Quote:
I'm not a prude. And yet while there are some reasonable points made in this thread, I will simply never be able to support the removal of the censor feature as long as I live, if only for the hilarity factor alone. "Snowty Ubisoft" and "snowing snow" are just indelibly charming to see.
This I agree with so much. It's hilarious.
It's also so convenient, if there are words that I'm not allowed to use, then they will simple by turned into pretty snow by themself.
I don't even have to care about what words are that are prohibited. HC itself takes care of my ignorance by censoring the right words. 
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted August 15, 2011 08:55 PM |
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 so it's not a breach of the CoC if you allow the system to censor it and convert it into snow? If it's not then why was I promted to censor my own posts ? 
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2011 10:09 PM |
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It's still worth mentioning that no one could or would explain what's so bad with those words. Take the sl-word. Insanity came with "OFFENSE" - but that's complete nonsense: sure, if you are neither slovenly nor promiscuous, you will feel offended FOR YOURSELF, if called that way, but it's folly to feel offended for your whole gender. There ARE promiscuous women - and strangely enough at least some of them do not mind at all being called sl-ty.
In fact, many like this word to describe a certain sexy outlook. Personally I know a few, who wouldn't mind at all being called that way, saying, I like sl-ty, and probably every guy I know as well, and also good girls may go to Heaven, but bad girls go everywhere, so what?
In fact, if you think about it, nearly all those words have to do with moral in some way. However, there is nothing wrong with being promiscuous, there is nothing wrong with having lots of sex and liking it, there is nothing wrong with having children out of wedlock, there is nothing wrong with being gay.
Consequently these words are absurd as offensive word, as absurd as ... atheist, heathen, heretic ... or tranny - if it's right. If you are a strong believer and are called atheist you will be rather offended, whether the word is fine or not.
You may FEEL offended if called something with a negative connotation, even if it's true, but that's only because of the negative connotation that comes from the time when it actually WAS wrong to be someone like that.
That said, the whole idea of language censorship is bad - the censorship makes it clear that something is wrong with the word, and as long there IS a censorship, the words can't have a "normal" meaning.
As already mentioned, it probably was wrong to have that thread here - in the OSM it would have been better, because primarily I ddon't want to CHANGE the rules, I want to DISCUSS them (which I've mentioned some time or another. On a site like this no one, least of all the owner, is keen on attract unnecessary attention from the wrong people.
But a discussion of these rules still make sense/are interesting, because they - generally - are so completely irrational.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2011 10:12 PM |
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Quote:
there is nothing wrong with being promiscuous, there is nothing wrong with having lots of sex and liking it, there is nothing wrong with having children out of wedlock
There is something wrong with these things, but that's a discussion for the OSM, not here.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted August 15, 2011 10:27 PM |
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Hmm... kinda funny how s*** and stud basically mean the same thing but one is allowed and one is not ^^
As for censoring in itself, I don't really care. I'd use **** marks anyway.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 16, 2011 08:19 AM |
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So let's move the thread.
Mvass wants to explain what's wrong with having lots of sex. 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 16, 2011 09:37 AM |
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So insanity says she is offended and you try to explain to her why it's wrong for her to feel offended? It's not your place (or anyone's for that matter) to tell her how she should feel. If anything we should respect that..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted August 16, 2011 09:52 AM |
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There will always be people who have problems with certain rules/laws, because they only have their OWN point of view.
"Why isn't it allowed to drive with 100 mph through a city for people who have their driving licence for 15 years at least? They SHOULD know how to drive by now, don't you think?"
Rules have to apply to ALL...otherwise rules make no sense. If there would live reasonable people only out there, our law books would content 2 or 3 pages only...but we all know the real world...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 16, 2011 10:20 AM |
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She WOULD feel offended, if someone called her so (which is basically because she ISN'T - that is, has no characteristics that are a match). Furthermore she feels offended as a woman if someone calls her so - but that's just because IN THE PAST it would ALSO been something of an accusation of being an immoral, godless, slovenly piece of Eve, which would first and foremost offend her sensibilities in terms of equality/emancipation - where's the term for a slovenly, promiscuous MAN, and why is it an accusation anyway.
But this is including the whole history of it. Today it's a bit different, and this has not the same connotations anymore. Sl-ty has become a somewhat more stylish word, that is used to hint of a certain sexually attractive outfit. High heels, stockings, cleavage, make-up... a slightly sl-ty outfit and dress-up to gain attention, whistles and so on.
An offense is not only depending on the one offended, it also depends on the offender. The bad N-word is a total no-no, when it comes from white persons, but - I don't know how it's currently, but there has been a time when blacks would call themselves so. I think, the same thing is true for gays.
Lastly, it's completely nonsensical anyway: IF insanity would indeed - as was the prerequisite - would report here on this board that "she was out with three boys last week and all three sucked in bed", and IF someone would ask her, whether that wasn't a bit sl-ty, she'd feel offended only, because she most probably wouldn't do that, and IF she would do that she wouldn't report it here in the forum. Conversely, IF a real person would act that way, in my experience the question wouldn't offend her in the least.
EDIT: Just fore clarity, angelito, who do you address with your post. The Tsar?
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted August 21, 2011 03:04 AM |
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Edited by Smithey at 05:51, 21 Aug 2011.
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How did I miss this one Let us dig in.....
1. To the question of why words such as Bastarrrd should be excluded ?
Well, I wouldnt mind having that word around however :
a. It is an offensive word
b. It would be thrown around a lot if allowed
c. Its really easy to use other words for Bastarrd hence the motion is a petty one JJ....
2. To the question of why is it an offensive word when in fact it has a specific meaning ?
The answer is a simple one - because the society you live in decided it is an offensive word, even if a person is an actual bastarrrd (by birth not as part of his charming personality) you will not use that phrase to describe his status unless you wish to mock/put him down/embarrass him...
You will never encounter a situation in which someone is saying - Smithey is such an amazing person, he's smart, funny, a bastarrrd and pretty damn cute too, I love that man... notice the odd word there ?
Never will you use that word in a positive manner... Never even if it is the truth...
3. To the question of how can you get offended for someone else ?
Before I give you an example I will say that it is not a secret that I am not a fan of muslim people, I dont hate them (I actually dated an Iranian girl) nor do I think they are worse than other people but... I have had bad experiences hence... not their biggest fan.. it is what it is....
RL story, I live in Israel right now, and if you are unaware of the situation JJ, Jews and Arabs aren't getting along all that great as people would like to think...
I'm standing in a line trying to buy me a drink, in front of me an Arab chick trying to buy a coffee and the dude tells her "Sorry, but I'm not serving Arabs, my little sister died by the hands of terrorists like yourself and I'll die before I give a coffee to one of you"...
I nearly choked, told the dude a bunch of words, took the girl out, apologized, and bought her a coffee in another coffe shop...
Why did I do that ?
Because I felt offended for her, I felt ashamed to be a part of that society, at that specific moment.
Has my concept of muslims changed ? Hell no, but the fact that I don't like them doesn't mean they don't deserve to be treated with respect...
Do you get where I'm going with this ? Does this explain how someone might get offended for someone else ?
Now, I do understand that you maybe don't understand this reaction/instinct/feeling but you aren't a dumb person JJ, you surely know that not all humans are wired in a same manner.
With certain things - you simply accept them as they are, as well as accepting the fact that you will never fully understand them...
Me, I don't understand religious people, however I accept that some of my friends are that way, and I respect their choice, We are different, that's all...
Hell, I don't understand women half of the time, but when my girlfriend says something offends her, I accept it as something I shouldn't do even though I don't have the slightest idea as to why would anyone get upset over something like that...
4. Regarding censoring "art"
Art by definition is subjective hence what you find to be artistic might be simply put "disgusting in my eyes"...
Porn, Cursing, morbid violence, endless spamming, pick whatever and I promise you that there will be some sad individual who will find something artistic in it...
Conclusion - art must be censored for the sake of each and every one of us, otherwise we will be forced to watch "2 girls and one cup" for the second time 
Last question is more of a - I didn't really get whether you would like to have the entire censorship system removed or would you simply want two words to be inserted ?
Now if it's about taking the censorship out, well...
Take hot headed members like JJ, Smithey (that would be me, not that clone smithII thats playing some silly online game around here), William, Aculias for example... Well, if there is no censorship, and any member shakes us the wrong way, by introducing certain uncensored words...
All those stated above will respond, and it won't be pretty...
You can add Blizz and Forfy to the list, not as an agressive duo (because they usually avoid conflicts) but as a duo that can bring vulgarity to new levels if allowed uncensered forum...
Now, those members which make for 1% of the community would tear the community apart in 2-3 weeks, gentle members such as Darkie, Carcity, Jabanoss (when I say gentle, I mean members who are nice to pretty much everybody, if you don't like one of those it's a strong indicator that something is wrong with you) who make the community what it is, would be gone faster than a premature ejaculator.... Censorship gone would be the end of the community... as simple as that
PS - I have shirts that say -
1. Sorry boys I eat "what some might refer to as a kitten" and there is a big smiley at the end...
2. "I taught your girlfriend that thing you like"
3. "I hope there is an afterlife so I can waste that one too"
4. "I know violence isn't the answer, I chose to be wrong on purpose"
5. "Easily distracted"
So fear not JJ, you're not the only guy with special needs on the forum
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