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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 16, 2012 06:33 PM |
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Edited by salubri at 22:48, 16 Dec 2012.
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Quote:
And I clearly remember that the offical NWC statement was something like "all forge creatures are as strong as any other units on their tiers".
And in leaked town screen files there was a doc which says that pyros are Magogs with flamethrowers and there's a "rhino" on 7th tier, so what=?
weird but it doesnt make any sence. technologically advanced faction is as strong as middle age faction? oh i can have infinite discusion on creatures here. ok lv1 remember Kastore kills goblin in one shot with blaster so forge goblings could start with at least 5 dmg thats the hp amount of barbarian goblins so that with one shot he could kill one. lv2 are zombies. its like nothing much but they have mechanical implants, mechanic parts compared to nercopolis zombies they can use those parts to defend (metal is thougher than flesh and bone). saws compared to other faction weapons are better. with sword or axe u swing u can find openings while enemy swings while with saw u cut until break armor or shield so its non stop pressure. lv3 pyros. it seems like they could be a weak part. but try to get near a guy with a flamethrower. ive read on wiki. The flamethrower is a potent weapon with great psychological impact, inflicting a particularly horrific death. This has led to some calls for the weapon to be banned. its not like it spits regular fire like dragon. its specific special mixture enchanted fire. lv4 stingers. the only lv4 creature that can compare a little with its power is mage. they shoot those laser like beams but stingers have laser sights and who knows how much explosives are in their rockets. lv5 jump soldier. could say that it is as powerful as regular minotaur but just like zombies he has mechanic implants and those behemot like claws (forge can copy anything so their soldiers are equiped with best armors and weapons). lv6 naga tank. same weakness as pyro. no armor but if she is equiped with 6 blasters then its a killer beyond imagination. (remember non upgraded nagas 4 hands, upgraded 6) lv7 juggernaut cmon it a flying steel fortress but since its hand to hand the question is how should it look like? maybe a good idea is a walker with some gigantic saws, drills or electric shock that can take off and fly, but that is for the team to decide.
many units look like they dont belong in their lv. lets look at tower town. i say golems are way stronger than mages and genies because they are pure stone or iron not to mention the magic resistance so destroying mage or genie for golems is nothing but then why they are lv3? centaur is bigger and stronger than dwarf so why its lv 1 not to mention centaur spears they would stomp over them or pierce throught with spear before dwarf can reach him? monks are lv5 so they can one on one take out a mighty griffin or fully armored crusader? dragonflies arent big insects and are lv3? gnolls can squish them without a problem but are lv1? they have weapons and armor so what dragonfly has? his teeth? oh my god not the teeth of doom  or take heroes 5 dark elf faction. so a girl with a whip is stronger than 3 times bigger hydra?
So why change the order of forge units? many town units levels dont make any sence so PLEASE leave forge units order original.
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Ivan
Known Hero
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posted December 17, 2012 12:16 PM |
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Girl with a whip stronger than a three times bigger hydra? In Final Fantasy VII, Sephiroth (after whom the Warlock Sephinroth is named, I guess) is stronger than everything and he's "just" a guy with a single wing and an oversized no-dachi. Don't try to make sense out of fantasy 
While I agree with you on most points, Salubri, and while I, too, would love to see the "original" Forge restored as it was meant to be, you have to understand that tastes differ and that, sadly, no matter how many, or how good arguments you put out there, you're very unlikely to change the modders' opinion on the matter - they won't stick to the original concept, they seek to realise their own idea, just like NWC tried to realise theirs.
I just hope that we'll end up liking it...
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hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 17, 2012 03:46 PM |
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Edited by hobbit at 15:49, 17 Dec 2012.
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Quote:
technologically advanced faction is as strong as middle age faction?
Middle age faction in Might and Magic?
No, in the middle ages we had no real magic or fantasy monsters AFAIK.
Many players were angry about cannon's and pistols' presence in Cove - they thought it just doesn't belong to the world of "middle ages" and is "too powerful for HoMM3". The point is: these were complaining about it BEFORE HotA was even released. After it came out, there was no bad word about it.
I guess it'll be the same with the Forge - with such or such units' order.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 17, 2012 05:52 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
technologically advanced faction is as strong as middle age faction?
Middle age faction in Might and Magic?
No, in the middle ages we had no real magic or fantasy monsters AFAIK.
Many players were angry about cannon's and pistols' presence in Cove - they thought it just doesn't belong to the world of "middle ages" and is "too powerful for HoMM3". The point is: these were complaining about it BEFORE HotA was even released. After it came out, there was no bad word about it.
I guess it'll be the same with the Forge - with such or such units' order.
I dont get it why complain about cannons and pistols. Those arent Glocks. they are just simple primitive pistols. pirates of regna are very advanced when it comes to sea. everyone playded MM8? there was a cannon in that game that pirates had. hey they even had a submarine. connons need gunpowder so making miniature version of cannon (pistol) is no big deal for them. again my arguments say pistols and cannons should belong there (cause they were in the game). when it comes to Cove i dont have any complains. everything there makes sence.
i say midle age cause many units there look they belong to the middle ages. Oracle in MM6 says its a barbaric state and he has a point cause the most technologically advanced faction are the pirates of regna (Cove). Pistols, cannons, submarine.
if they think pistol is such a huge power take cyclops. he is a giant who throws massive rocks. compare tiny bullet to a huge rock which destroys walls. u can even compare it to a cannon. i was also angry when i first saw the forge. i was like: sci-fi in heroes game? but then i played and saw MM7 evil ending. i saw blasters, spaceship, heavenly forge even in MM6 there is many technology. ive never played MM1-5 but players said there is many sci-fi in those games and Might and Magic + Heroes are same universe. so its time to advance from this barbaric state so bring on The Forge. ive always wanted to see more of the technology to get near something that Ancients left.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 17, 2012 06:14 PM |
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Quote:
the most technologically advanced faction are the pirates of regna (Cove). Pistols, cannons, submarine.
Not only them. See Heroes 3 intro - Catherine actually had some cannons on her ship. So if the Forge appeared in H3, it wouldn't be really middle age vs advanced technology battle. 
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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OxFEA
Promising
Famous Hero
feanor on DF2.ru
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posted December 17, 2012 06:38 PM |
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Quote:
Not only them. See Heroes 3 intro - Catherine actually had some cannons on her ship.
Also, there are cannons near Castle Harmondale, at Emerald Island, at Daggerwond Islands..but don't forget, first cannons belong to 1350-1450 years in real history.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 17, 2012 06:52 PM |
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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 17, 2012 08:38 PM |
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Edited by salubri at 20:45, 17 Dec 2012.
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Quote:
Quote:
the most technologically advanced faction are the pirates of regna (Cove). Pistols, cannons, submarine.
Not only them. See Heroes 3 intro - Catherine actually had some cannons on her ship. So if the Forge appeared in H3, it wouldn't be really middle age vs advanced technology battle.
yeah but she didnt had pistols and submarines. oh it wouldnt be middle age vs advanced age? when was cannon and rocket launcher invented? how much time passed between that? cannon is slow to move, weak aiming its quite primitive construction compared to rocket launcher while rocket launcher is easy to transport it accurate bacause of laser sights not to mention hell knows how much explosives Kastore put in its rocket. its like: oh no they have primitive pistols. so? we have laser weapons. its like comparing this guy
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Little_Willie.jpg
and
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Leopard_2_A5_der_Bundeswehr.jpg
play MM6 or 7. equip the whole party with blaster riffles and see the difference between bows and them. try to construct a bow. pff no problem. try to construct a blaster... no one in that world knows how to do that except few chosen like Kastore. all factions are in like 16 age while forge is almost in 21 technologically. they know how to construct rockets, tanks, jet-packs and thats way more serious firepower compared to others.
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hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 17, 2012 10:30 PM |
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There were no submarines in 16th century, and there are no humanoid tanks in 21th. And I've never heard of having dragons in our world.
The whole point is: you forgot that MM is fantasy. Therefore there's nothing preventing cannons to be more powerful than ancient rocket launchers. Especially if cannons are the younger inventions in this world.
So no, Forge hasn't to be more powerful in units' strength. Its power can lay somewhere else.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 18, 2012 12:18 AM |
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Edited by salubri at 00:45, 18 Dec 2012.
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There were no submarines in 16th century, and there are no humanoid tanks in 21th. And I've never heard of having dragons in our world.
The whole point is: you forgot that MM is fantasy. Therefore there's nothing preventing cannons to be more powerful than ancient rocket launchers. Especially if cannons are the younger inventions in this world.
So no, Forge hasn't to be more powerful in units' strength. Its power can lay somewhere else.
So then whats the point of making all this technology if it has the same strenght? say to the blacksmith: make me the best armor i dont care about the price and best weapon. we will dublicate them and equip the whole army. so why waste time making complex weapons? why not just dublicate those simple cannons instead of rocket launchers if its the same strenght? its a waste of time making zombies, minotaurs, nagas with mech implants. get army, equip with best weapons and armors (whole army with dublicated Ullyses Bows and Yoruba Plate Mails, Charele Spears those are the best artifacts and relics in game so the whole army with those can lay waste without resistance) and thats it. so again why waste time with all this technology? u just give weapon and armor and he is ready to go. while implanting saws, attaching mech parts or connecting wires to the organic parts takes a lot of time not to mention that many units need oil to run (and there is an oil excavation problem, even more time wasted). Summary: lasers and rockets and implants make army stronger than other weapons thats why waste time.
One more thing if those forge units lets say are as strong as other factions so then why heroes run to get the Amageddons Blade? massive armies of Kreegans and Warlocks invaded Antigarich and they didnt need no super artifacts to drive them away. There were two massive evil factions and now there is only one. forge arent necromancers anymore they cant refill armies with fallen soldiers converting them to skeletons, wraits, vampires, lichs, dreadknights so their strength lies not in numbers but in power.
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hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 18, 2012 08:22 AM |
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Edited by hobbit at 08:24, 18 Dec 2012.
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I already answered your question.
Quote:
Forge isn't all about super power. It's about giving regular troops a technology so that they would be better - as these more elite units. While doing so, these blasters cost NONE. Well, almost. Just look how many did Kastore produce "just like that". So I think Forge's power was supposed to be opposite to what you're saying - it could make these more common creatures (like minotaurs) as strong as these less common with little price.
Now it all makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
Also, Armageddon's Blade is a powerful mass spellcasting weapon. So it would be a perfect weapon against whole big armies, as it would be perfect weapon against Kreegans. And remember that in RoE there were Kreegans and Nighon, but Kreegans soon escaped cowardly. Now we have the whole Deyja and Harmondale (definitely worse enemy), but also renegates from other lands. All ruled by one maniac from the other world.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 18, 2012 02:12 PM |
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Edited by salubri at 15:15, 18 Dec 2012.
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Quote:
I already answered your question.
Quote:
Forge isn't all about super power. It's about giving regular troops a technology so that they would be better - as these more elite units. While doing so, these blasters cost NONE. Well, almost. Just look how many did Kastore produce "just like that". So I think Forge's power was supposed to be opposite to what you're saying - it could make these more common creatures (like minotaurs) as strong as these less common with little price.
Now it all makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
Also, Armageddon's Blade is a powerful mass spellcasting weapon. So it would be a perfect weapon against whole big armies, as it would be perfect weapon against Kreegans. And remember that in RoE there were Kreegans and Nighon, but Kreegans soon escaped cowardly. Now we have the whole Deyja and Harmondale (definitely worse enemy), but also renegates from other lands. All ruled by one maniac from the other world.
Harmondale doesnt have army. Just a few soldiers. its a little town. u didnt answer question why all this technology is here if it takes so much time to produce half machine soldiers while equiping them with copies of legendary artifacts would be better. its easy to copy armors and weapons so why make them half machines which require oil to run? it takes so much time. take minotaurs for example. warlock minotaur has armor and axe. so give forge minotaur copy of Titans Belt, Kelebrim Shield, Yoruba Plate Mail and Mekorig's Hammer. he will smash warlocks minotaur like tomato. so if forge was equiped with just weapons and armors that would make sence that they are cheap to produce. but now the whole town is filled with waste and barrels. Kastore is up for a quest to rule the world. he knows that the whole world armies will unite against him and he will get his a s s kicked. Sandro had the same idea but he was a necromancer and with cloak of undead king he raised legions of liches with each battle so one faction vs the whole world is not a bad idea since u can refill your armies without visiting castle. only three factions were fighting Sandro. Kastore can have infinite number of weapons and armors but not army numbers he is not a necromancer. he doesnt have any insane power artifacts. so one faction vs the world is a mistake. thats why websites and NWC say that forge is much stronger to dominate the world. His plan is might over numbers. in AB u see heroes of all factions against the forge so its a much more powerful army than Sandros legions of undead. they even seek AB to stop him. truce if forged between enemies to fight this overwhelming enemy. even Mutare is in the party so that means she seeks that elixir to turn into a dragon to fight the forge and gather those mighty dragons. (we know AB Mutares campaign it was changed because forge was cancelled but some things remained. seeing that she is in the heroes party and seeks Vial of Dragonblood is a theory that she will use that power to gather dragons against the forge, there is even a puzzle map screen for my theory). there is so much evidence that Forge is all about power cause they cant produce numbers to fight 6 united factions.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 18, 2012 04:55 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 16:57, 18 Dec 2012.
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Harmondale doesnt have army. Just a few soldiers.
There are goblins. Lots of goblins.
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if it takes so much time
But what if it doesn't?
They don't have to be legendary ancient artifacts' copies. They can be just produced faster comparing to the traditional blacksmiths.
Quote:
Kastore can have infinite number of weapons and armors but not army numbers he is not a necromancer.
Well, IIRC, Kastore was the last king of Deyja...
Quote:
so one faction vs the world is a mistake.
...so I think the conclusion is pretty simple.
Yet suppose he really has no necromancers on his side... but who said that he's against the whole world? I mean: yeah, he's kind of against it, but same with Kreegans - and they didn't have any necromancers. The point is: they fighted against only TWO nations with Conflux's help. And they were defeated probably because of three things:
1. There was OP Conflux
2. There was Gelu
3. The Kreegans were somehow pretty stupid.
So I think point 1 and 3 wouldn't fit in Forge's story, so Kastore can be dangerous even without these uberpowered armies.
Quote:
NWC say that forge is much stronger to dominate the world.
I don't remember that quote from any NWC member.
Quote:
in AB u see heroes of all factions against the forge
Where? The hell, it's because of this screen? It's like with Forge's puzzle - that means nothing. Just a bunch of heroes standing before the Forge, all made for box cover to look great. Nothing more.
Or maybe you have some other proof than that?
Quote:
even Mutare is in the party so that means she seeks that elixir to turn into a dragon to fight the forge and gather those mighty dragons. (we know AB Mutares campaign it was changed because forge was cancelled but some things remained. seeing that she is in the heroes party and seeks Vial of Dragonblood is a theory that she will use that power to gather dragons against the forge, there is even a puzzle map screen for my theory).
Again: it's nothing more than theory. These dragons were just to show something. They had all four beasts from Dracon's campaign, yet they had no Forge's full line up, so they put dragons to this puzzle so that they had anything for promotion.
Why your theory is most probably wrong? First: AFAIR Mutare didn't have any of these special dragons in her army until HC. Second: there is a boar on this puzzle. Would that mean boars were into this battle? Like with Forge or against it?
***
Ok, let's end this discussion here and be objective for a moment.
While your theories somehow can be true (sometimes ), they're just theories. And that's fine. But HotA Crew have their own theories too. And they're making the Forge in their way. They can be right or maybe wrong, but so you. So my question is: why to be stubborn?
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
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posted December 18, 2012 05:06 PM |
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Forge crew makes Forge. They can put anything in it that they like, it's their mod. It's nothing more and nothing less than some guys' hobby project that is graciously offered for everyone to play. Their mod, their rules. Don't like some of them? Fine, go make your own version, but stop complaining please.
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Sanity through drugs. Order yours today!
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted December 18, 2012 05:19 PM |
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Quote:
They can put anything in it that they like, it's their mod.
And we can aks for whatever we want, as we are the players
Mod without people playing it wouldn't make much sense, would it?
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Ivan
Known Hero
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posted December 18, 2012 05:23 PM |
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Edited by Ivan at 17:26, 18 Dec 2012.
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Don't try to link the other campaigns with the Armageddon's Blade campaign - they are completely separare and would have stayed the same regardless of the Forge faction, and here's a few examples to prove it: if the other factions were really concerned with saving Erathia from Kastore's Deyja, why did Dracon's mother make the all-powerful Crystal Dragons to be wasted as a "test" for her son, instead of sending them to aid Erathia. And why did Kilgore and Adrianne fight their own battles instead of joining Erathia?
There was no grand alliance against Kastore: it was only Erathia, AvLee/Tularea and Bracada. Even though the others would have been conquered too, following the fall of Erathia, they didn't join the war. And as for Mutare, she was only concerned with attaining power for herself, just like Kilgore. Had the forces of Nighon taken part in that war, it would have been against Erathia, to avenge their bitter defeat in the Restoration Wars. In fact, the Minotaurs in Kastore's armies might be troops sent from Nighon as a token of good will, in hopes of making an alliance with him.
And, Warmonger, that was brilliantly put, well done! Sadly, I don't think they really care, given that most "fans" don't know about the Forge, or are strongly opposed to it 
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 18, 2012 05:41 PM |
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And we can aks for whatever we want, as we are the players
Mod without people playing it wouldn't make much sense, would it?
For me it should be something like this:
"Hey, maybe you should change something for this, this and this?"
"No, I think it's better this way."
"Ok, your choice. But think about it later."
Now it's something like this:
"OMG F*** F***** LET IT BE ORIGINAL"
"But it is original, yet changed for better gameplay."
"I dare you, it's just heresy! I'm so angry!"
"But hey, look on this from the other side..."
"But you don't understand! You can't do that!"
"God, this makes me feel uncomfortable..."
...and so on.
No offence.
____________
Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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OxFEA
Promising
Famous Hero
feanor on DF2.ru
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posted December 18, 2012 06:27 PM |
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Edited by OxFEA at 18:34, 18 Dec 2012.
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Quote:
So then whats the point of making all this technology if it has the same strenght?
Because Forge is creating for game. Moreover, for strategy game.
We can create fraction with seven 7th level creatures, but it will be unplayable.
You want town only for campaign? I think that is inefficient waste of resources.
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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 18, 2012 06:33 PM |
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Quote:
Don't try to link the other campaigns with the Armageddon's Blade campaign - they are completely separare and would have stayed the same regardless of the Forge faction, and here's a few examples to prove it: if the other factions were really concerned with saving Erathia from Kastore's Deyja, why did Dracon's mother make the all-powerful Crystal Dragons to be wasted as a "test" for her son, instead of sending them to aid Erathia. And why did Kilgore and Adrianne fight their own battles instead of joining Erathia?
There was no grand alliance against Kastore: it was only Erathia, AvLee/Tularea and Bracada. Even though the others would have been conquered too, following the fall of Erathia, they didn't join the war. And as for Mutare, she was only concerned with attaining power for herself, just like Kilgore. Had the forces of Nighon taken part in that war, it would have been against Erathia, to avenge their bitter defeat in the Restoration Wars. In fact, the Minotaurs in Kastore's armies might be troops sent from Nighon as a token of good will, in hopes of making an alliance with him.
And, Warmonger, that was brilliantly put, well done! Sadly, I don't think they really care, given that most "fans" don't know about the Forge, or are strongly opposed to it
Well i think those campaign stories were changed because forge was cancelled. Why then all the heroes are on the box screen? the main story is all about forge. Warmonger put a good point if they are making this so please listen to the fans. leave the units order alone ive explained why and make forge units a little bit stronger. just two simple things. or better make a poll and vote for these changes. if most of the fans want order of units changed and weakened then im ok with that.
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salubri
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 18, 2012 07:01 PM |
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Edited by salubri at 19:17, 18 Dec 2012.
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Quote:
Quote:
So then whats the point of making all this technology if it has the same strenght?
Because Forge is creating for game. Moreover, for strategy game.
We can create fraction with seven 7th level creatures, but it will be unplayable.
You want town only for campaign? I think that is inefficient waste of resources.
No no no fraction. All forge creatures stay in their lvs and no campaign only. only their strength is increased a little compared to other factions. i explained in so many posts why forge creatures should be stronger and leave creatures lvs in the original order ive explained also why. thats it. read my posts. so many good arguments. it would be a nice balanced faction. do we want to make it worse? no. just unique. everything will be the same as in any other faction. just for balance lower growth and higher prices. other factions have the same thing.
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