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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 27, 2013 07:56 PM |
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@Kipshasz: it's a Mohawk hairstyle, similar to H4 centaurs.
@Macron1
Okay, let put it this way for the last time:
1. There are already some goblins as 1st level units. Making another set of on-foot Goblins on the same level but in other town would be just boring, there's no reason to do that.
2. These goblins have to be stronger than the regular Goblins since they are from Forge, and Forge is considered as a really strong town. So all stats have to be equal or higher. That plus the fact that they shoot would be imba - no matter what you do when you start with Forge you'll always have really strong shooters from the very beginning. No balance at all.
3. For now all Forge units that come from other towns are from the higher levels (e.g. regular Minotaurs are on level 5, Forge Minotaurs are on level 6 etc.). There's no real reason to make an exception except from "They look weaker" argument, which doesn't really make much sense when you look at e.g. Gnolls and Lizardmen.
4. For some reason centaurs from H3 were made on-foot soldiers even though they have ranged attack animation. It's probably because of balance - in Heroes 2 Centaurs and Halflings were the most powerful 1st level units next to Skeletons (which were more powerful just because of Necromancy). Master Gremlins are already really useful (and were even more when Gremlin Rush was still working), so another first level shooter would be just pointless.
5. Comparing HoMM3, where there are even 10 level units, to HoMM4, which had max 4 level units, isn't really smart.
6. Halflings in HoMM3 are neutral units, so there's no reason in comparing them to regular town units. And I'm not into this idea of putting them as Stanford 1st level units - it's not a good idea.
7. 3DO didn't made HoMM series - NWC did.
I hope that'll explain the whole thing enough.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted December 27, 2013 08:01 PM |
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oh, cool. Still to me it looks like a bloody beret 
Anyway, good job. this is going very well.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted December 27, 2013 08:59 PM |
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Edited by Macron1 at 21:02, 27 Dec 2013.
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Hobbit said:
5. Comparing HoMM3, where there are even 10 level units, to HoMM4, which had max 4 level units, isn't really smart.
6. Halflings in HoMM3 are neutral units, so there's no reason in comparing them to regular town units. And I'm not into this idea of putting them as Stanford 1st level units - it's not a good idea.
7. 3DO didn't made HoMM series - NWC did.
I hope that'll explain the whole thing enough.
5. Why I cant compare archers, centaurs and, orcs and halflings from HMM4? They even have same 1st level parameters as In HMM3
OK, take HMM2. What do I see here? We have halflings (first levels shooters) also here. Isn't it canonic to have 1st level shooters?
6. Again, in HMM2 halflings (one is on your avatar) are not neutral units, still they are first level shooters. And that's in HMM2, that was way more balanced
7. that's details that don't matter.
Your argumentation has no point at all.
New towns have to have 1st level shooters, it's a matter of balance.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 27, 2013 09:03 PM |
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Macron1 said:
Your argumentation has no point at all.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 27, 2013 09:19 PM |
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Macron1 said:
OK, take HMM2.
I already explained everything about HoMM2. But I guess arguing with you is just pointless.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted December 27, 2013 09:33 PM |
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Hobbit said:
Macron1 said:
OK, take HMM2.
I already explained everything about HoMM2. But I guess arguing with you is just pointless.
You are right - noncence will stay noncence. No offence, man, but foolish arguments like "they made only one first level shooter, so maybe they throught about balance" are laughable.
Tower already has 3 levels of shooters. There is no sign of ghostly balance you see somewhere.
I say more - 1st level shooters are not imba. And there is more - faction with 4 or 5 shooters will be weaker, that faction with flyers and tractors (units with big hit points and damage).
I'm already playing several factions which have 1st level shooters. And these shooters are not very helping. They die first. And 1st level damage + distance, walls penalty make them only good against same 1st-2nd level weaklings,
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 01:16 AM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 01:16, 28 Dec 2013.
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Another one from our "noncence" line up: Pyro and Pyromaniac.
After defeat of Kreegan during war over Armageddon Blade, some gogs instead of coming back to Plane of Fire joined Kastore's army. Their nature, in combination with artifacts of the Ancient, can let loose all hell on the battlefield.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 07:20 AM |
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Edited by Macron1 at 07:22, 28 Dec 2013.
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Hobbit said:
Another one from our "noncence" line up: Pyro and Pyromaniac.
Nonsence is your idea of 1st level shooters. Line-up is normal. And I always can make goblins 1st level for myself
Seems that on DF2 there are also people think that police is not fitting 1st level (Hippocamus)
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 28, 2013 01:26 PM |
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For a moment I thought they were shooters...until I checked they have no ammo 
Breath attack on a level 3, that's interesting.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 01:30 PM |
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Edited by Macron1 at 13:31, 28 Dec 2013.
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Storm-Giant said:
Breath attack on a level 3, that's interesting.
They use flamethrowers.
Like dwarves from Modern Forge (originally Modern Forge dwarves DEFs came from Kronverk first units).
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 03:28 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 16:18, 28 Dec 2013.
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Macron1 said:
Seems that on DF2 there are also people think that police is not fitting 1st level
He didn't say that goblins should be on 1st level though. And HotA Crew also wanted to put goblins on 2nd level, so there are already two groups who support my nonsense idea, which, BTW, isn't really mine but Witchking's (and partially Don_ko's you can say).
And no, these aren't real flamethrowers, even though they work like one. Look closely - gogs are already making fire, their weapon is only spreading it.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 03:36 PM |
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Hobbit said:
hippocamus said:
And HotA Crew also wanted to put goblins on 2nd level, so there are already two groups who support my nonsense idea, which, BTW, isn't really mine but Witchking's (and partially Don_ko's you can say).
Why you made conclusion, that they support your idea of 1st level shooters? HOTA goblins (that you used earlier in this Forge) are looking like 2-3 level creatures, they are too equipped and big to be first level.
If you look to HOTA Forge page, you will see, that on fist level are flamethrowers
http://heroes3towns.com/?town=forge_3&page=units
And they look less armed and futuristic.
Then as you see, first 4 levels are humanoids, and 2 shooters. So it's logical to divide 2 shooters by 1 melee level.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 04:16 PM |
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 04:56 PM |
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it looks good.
one thing, there are already a billion units with range attack and no melee penalty.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 05:08 PM |
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Fauch said:
it looks good.
one thing, there are already a billion units with range attack and no melee penalty.
That's how it was intended by NWC. Forge was planned as a barely balanced town in comparison to the others. Don't know the intentions of the Polish Forge team though.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 05:26 PM |
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Fauch said:
one thing, there are already a billion units with range attack and no melee penalty.
Zealots, Magi and Arch Magi, Titans, Beholders and Evil Eyes, Medusas and Medusa Queens, Enchanters, all three Pirates from Cove and now Mercenaries from Forge. That's 13.
The rest are: Archers and Marksmen, Monks, Wood and Grand Elves, Master Gremlins, Gogs and Magogs, Liches and Power Liches, Orcs and Orc Chieftains, Cyclops and Cyclop Kings, Lizardmen and Lizard Warriors, Storm and Ice Elementals, Halflings, Sea Witches and Sorceresses from Cove and Ogres from Forge. That's 23.
Even if we count Orcs with no melee penalty from HotA it's still not that bad.
Orzie said:
Forge was planned as a barely balanced town in comparison to the others.
We plan to make it really strong, but not really unbalanced - its strength will not depend on stats but rather on special abilities.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 05:59 PM |
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personally I would go with no range penalty since it's a ray weapon I guess. (seems like the other forge team thought the same). of course, damage probably would have to be reduced.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 06:01 PM |
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Edited by Macron1 at 18:01, 28 Dec 2013.
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Fauch said:
personally I would go with no range penalty since it's a ray weapon I guess. (seems like the other forge team thought the same). of course, damage probably would have to be reduced.
+1
what range penalty laser has.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 07:19 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 19:20, 28 Dec 2013.
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Fauch said:
personally I would go with no range penalty since it's a ray weapon I guess.
It isn't a ray weapon. Have you played MM6-7? Blasters here are shooting some kind of "energy bolts", which aren't really that accurate. These are the same, although a little bit weaker since they are mass produced.
Macron1 said:
what range penalty laser has.
Beholders. It's the same here. Besides, these guys are just goblin thugs, not really well trained.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Dairy
Known Hero
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posted December 28, 2013 09:52 PM |
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Whoa, this project is expanding pretty well and really fast.
Mind a question ? Not sure if somebody asked you already, but this is Polish Forge team for VCMI ,right ? You are not working with/for HoTA and this won't take part of that project ? Might be stupid question, if so I am sorry.
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