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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 04, 2023 08:01 AM |
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Edited by artu at 08:46, 04 Feb 2023.
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@Sal
I didn't take your comment literally, you dont even consider the music of Beatles "real art" Mr. Purist! How about composing in your pjamas?  I knew what you meant was "they nailed it." And my comment was a reply to exactly that, they didnt nail it for me because "an unexpected climax creating a sudden and intense feeling" wasnt there, I did expect it and that is exactly what I emphasized, remember: You see it coming from a mile away.
JJ, on the other hand, did take it literally, so things took a turn.
JollyJoker said:
I think, I don't see the point you are making. The medium you mention is conventionalle considered art since the 80s, but what we actually have here is even older, because it's simple TV.
Why is this art? Because it's not a fake. It's not satire, like the link you gave, where things are enacted. Calling it a "prank" is misleading. It's more like a social experiment.
I mean, satire builds a lot on overstatement - but then, everyone KNOWS it's just "sarire"; making it "real" is a different beast.
When things seem REAL, they get a different dimension - think of the Milgram experiment.
A medium is not art, you can create art on a medium. Art can be on TV, art can even be a TV but hidden camera jokes, reality shows, trivia shows etc. are not conventionally art. They can use techniques developed by artists, the host of Who Wants To Be A Millionare uses acting methods from classical theatre to create tension while we wait for the answer, the background jingle of the show also does that, it doesnt make a trivia show art though, does it. Is the gong on a TV show art of music? How about the drum that goes dup-tasss after a stand-up joke, is it art?
Milgram experiment isnt art either, it is directly a psychological experiment. You can say it has a theatrical impact, sure, but the intention is not to perform an artistic expression. Just because something is real or a social experiment, it doesnt become art, in fact, it usually isnt.
And it's not even like this is some experiment that makes us see another dimension of human beings in a shocking way, it's just a light-hearted ode to mothers, "oh, how sweet, waving at you mom." Put aside the fact it is not art and it doesnt even try to be, it is not even experimental in the true sense of the word, it doesnt push any boundries, it doesnt put people into a situation of actual intense conflict, it's sweet. That's all.
@purerogue
Well, you simply contradict with yourself because even if something doesnt traditionally look beautiful, it can be felt or experienced.
And what exactly looks beautiful? You know, centuries ago when painters first started to paint pictures of daily life, crowded streets etc, the tradition of the time objected exactly the same way: Why paint this, what is beautiful about it? Such ugly themes unfit for the elegance of a painting etc. etc... Is painting a stray dog instead of Venus less artistic.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 04, 2023 10:30 AM |
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@ artu
You argue without actually delivering a definition of art - which makes no sense. "Conventional art" is a nonsense term anyway.
As long as we have no mutually accepted definition of ART, we don't debate whether something IS art, but whether we CONSIDER it to be art.
I consider the Milgram experiment as art because it delivered so much more than social revelation, starting with the experiment as such, the build-up and so on. It's like you could make it a movie or drama for theater - and exactly that's what happened
@ all
Art itself (comics, books, movies) ask (by inventing it) whether horrible crimes can be pieces of art. Can a killing spree be a piece of art? Is what the antagonist in Se7en does a piece of art when it's finished?
Interesting question to ask. It leads to the question whether Evil/the Devil can be an artist/artistic as such...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 04, 2023 11:07 AM |
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Well, we’ve been through that in the past, put aside a mutual definition, you dont even need a personal definition of art to consider some things NOT art. We may both not have a framed, set in stone definition but we can still theoratically agree that a piece is not art or does not feature artistic quality.
I dont know why you linked the wiki page, do I sound like I dont know what the experiment is? You can make a movie of it yes, but that means it is good art material, not art itself. If you start to label anything that has social shock value and theatrical impact, then the French Revolution and the guillotine is also art? No?
Now, the murders in Se7en, that is different, because there, you have the killer specifically expressing himself, deliberately setting a scene for the sake of the scene itself. Not to intimidate, but to engage. So, you can call that an artistic act in a twisted sort of way.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 04, 2023 01:31 PM |
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I tend to disagree, because you can create "art" involuntarily, or involuntarily create art, respectively.
I linked the media depictions, not the experiment itself. I mean, if you enact the Milgram Experiment as a documentary and THAT is considered a piece of art, then why is the experiment as such not?
In any case we disagree with regard to it being art or not.
And I don't think, I agree with calling something "artistic in a twisted sense". "Twisted art" isn't any different from the Nazis calling things "degenerate art". It's either art or it's not, depending on art having to comply to certain moral standards or not, and that in turn depends on whether art has to be moral or ethical in some way to be even considered art.
Lastly, I'm not so sure whether it's so easy to classify something as NOT being art. Again, it depends.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 04, 2023 02:44 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:22, 04 Feb 2023.
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The experiment itself is research, a documentary would be a documentary, if you put it on stage to manifest something, then it becomes a statement. Contemporary artist peeing on someone, an act that is its own cause, mobster peeing on guy who doesnt pay, intimidation, not involuntary art, Nazis burning pictures, bigotry, Banksy destroying his own picture, statement…
I called it twisted because she chopped a lady’s head off and send it to her husband so that he murders him, I guess we can agree that's a little different than the Nazis calling modern art degenerate. Yes, art can be immoral, I’d rather say it can have its own moral universe (so did the serial killer in Seven) but you can also call that moral universe twisted. One can also find a school of art degenerate, artists find other artists degenerate all the time, the problem with Nazis was that they destroyed what they didnt like. (And they didnt like a lot.) On top of that, they did it as the state. Of course, in case of murder, you would also have to ban it as the state, but this time it would be legitimate, so it’s really not a fitting analogy.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 04, 2023 04:40 PM |
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I disagree. It's the same thing. You just try to pull your head out of the noose you put around it by yourself, calling it twisted. "Twisted" is utterly SUBJECTIVE, which is what "dislike" is as well: SUBJECTIVE.
And I disagree with your distinction - EVERYthing can be a piece of art; it doesn't have to be INTENDED as such, which is what you are implying when making the distinction you do.
Wouldn't have thought that I'm so completely in disagreement with you there.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 04, 2023 05:05 PM |
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Well, in that sense, genocide can be a good thing, or even artistic, too. That is also hypothetically subjective, but not really is it. Of course, it is subjective: According to the killer, it's not twisted.
Anything involving ethics or aesthetics can be claimed to be subjective but in reality, they are rather intersubjective, arent they. What you're saying in practice is, you can look at a pile of trash, think the combination of colors is interesting, then it becomes involuntarily made art because you want to see it that way. You can hear the honks during a traffic jam as music, they become involuntary art. But if the definition of something can include anything, it basically means nothing.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 04, 2023 08:51 PM |
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In my mind I see Sal chuckling, he knew what would happen when he posted that link in this particular thread. Well played.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 04, 2023 10:46 PM |
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@ artu
We are not talking solipsism here, and I'm not trying to make a point for it either. I just want to point out that WE NEED A DEFINITION of art. As long as we don't have any, there's nothing you can take for granted.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 06, 2023 07:11 AM |
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These new AI painters (Midjourney, DALL-E etc.) are shocking. Here’s families of the world drawn by AI, The link is in Turkish since I couldnt find the original news but you dont need to read anything anyway. Click
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted February 06, 2023 08:23 AM |
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Why (or what about it) do you find it shocking?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 06, 2023 10:21 AM |
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That it can be visually so descriptive about cultural details and distinctions.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted February 06, 2023 10:31 AM |
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*Nice AI won Art competition.. Artists got angry!*
Théâtre D'opéra Spatial. JASON ALLEN VIA MIDJOURNEY
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted February 06, 2023 12:23 PM |
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Ghost said:
*Nice AI won Art competition.. Artists got angry!*
What competition?.. link?
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted February 06, 2023 12:35 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 06, 2023 01:21 PM |
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What's the big deal? I mean, think photography. Did that make paintings obsolete? Or what about these beauties?
A computer program (whether it's called AI or otherwise) is just as good as its routines allow and as good as the person(s) using them.
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted February 06, 2023 01:34 PM |
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The "big deal" is how it is an actual threat for many artists who work in the industries that have spent their entire lives with the craft, that might no longer have jobs in a few years. Of course, this is just the natural course of things, and there's really no use fighting against it. Even for me as a programmer this "AI takeover" has been just a thing about the "future", but seeing the recent developments makes you think if society is ready for it at all. Kinda like how the industrial revolution made the work of hundreds of people be relatively non-trivial, but still the workload for people has just been going up and up. The discussions and debates it has been bringing up are very good and overdue. I look at it with nervous optimism, personally.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 06, 2023 01:42 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
What's the big deal? I mean, think photography. Did that make paintings obsolete? Or what about these beauties?
A computer program (whether it's called AI or otherwise) is just as good as its routines allow and as good as the person(s) using them.
I dont think it will replace actual “high” art or something like that, but in terms of graphic design, it is adequate, cheaper and extremely faster. The stunning part is, you fill in the words Polish family in a box and it just draws it. And these algoritms are about a year old, think of what it will be cabable of in 20 years.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 06, 2023 02:21 PM |
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gnollking said:
The "big deal" is how it is an actual threat for many artists who work in the industries that have spent their entire lives with the craft, that might no longer have jobs in a few years. Of course, this is just the natural course of things, and there's really no use fighting against it. Even for me as a programmer this "AI takeover" has been just a thing about the "future", but seeing the recent developments makes you think if society is ready for it at all. Kinda like how the industrial revolution made the work of hundreds of people be relatively non-trivial, but still the workload for people has just been going up and up. The discussions and debates it has been bringing up are very good and overdue. I look at it with nervous optimism, personally.
tell that to the people going to college for game art. my college didn't even warn us that this was a thing before we signed on; i found out myself due to an assignment we were given late in the first year. i figured ai art would be years down the road, and once here, would be up against lawsuits to prevent taking over the game art industry and losing people jobs (like corporate gives a rat's ass, but whatever). from what i hear, there's only been a couple of attempts at lawsuits thus far.
with that said, i wasn't looking to get into the industry anyway; once i found out about the kind of people running it, and the kind of people they prefer to hire, and how difficult of an industry it is to get into(gee, i wonder why? can't have just ANYONE creating entertainment; you have to have a certain... lack of thought to play ball). slaving my life away for some nutsacks who are pocketing the bulk of the income created by the actual workers, isn't a thing i'm really invested in. i have my own plans, and if they ever see the light of day, i'm going to turn the gaming industry on it's ear, ai or not. the funny thing is, by the time my plans come to fruition, ai will likely be the bulk of the audience that'll be able to understand the ramifications and implementations of what i plan to present to the world.
that is, if the bs mickey-mouse world lasts that long. some of these evil and retarded snows have really got a hard-on for nuclear war; and i have to wonder if they actually have the lack of sense to go through with it.
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted February 06, 2023 03:03 PM |
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@fred; Very true. The thing is, literally nobody could not have warned artists joining the game industry about this in the recent years, this is all such a recent development. The thing about lawsuits I find interesting is the fact that most of the AI models used right now are trained on data that they basically would have no rights to use if the legal definitions were up to date at all. The models use art created by professionals with none of their consent, which is a real issue that should be solved asap.
About the gaming industry itself, it has become so predatory and toxic in the last 10-or-so years that no self-respecting person would want any part in it at all. I rarely follow any "triple-A" studios, knowing how abused the actual developers are behind the scenes. I think the most recent example of this that actually reached the mainstream knowledge was Red Dead Redemption 2, with their crunches reaching widespread knowledge. Indie games and "passion-projects" are the only things worth a following nowadays, and I say this as someone who graduated from and studied the industry for many years.
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This thread is pages long: 
