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| Thread: Advanced auto-combat system |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted September 04, 2011 08:16 PM |
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Advanced auto-combat system
To speed up the game need to improve auto-combat system. Lots of battles need to be played manually because auto-combat give looses easily avoided in manual played battle. Solution is to give more control to player over auto-combat. First of all game need to memorize player choice of army placement before battle and for next battle make army placement like it was in last battle. Second need to give player possibility to set simple rules for each stack. This rules will determine what each stack will do in auto-combat battle. Such system of rules are implemented and work well in a lot of modern RPG, for example Dragon Age 2.
Example of rules:
Sentinel - Stand your ground, defend, do not engage.
Sister - Stand your ground, heal then allied stack health<50%
Shooter - Shoot priority healer-ranged-caster
Just press auto-combat button in battle and see how inefficient AI command your army. Time to move on from stone age ...
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 04, 2011 09:56 PM |
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted September 05, 2011 05:42 AM |
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Quote:
Doesn't this indicate that combat in Heroes 6 is particularly boring ?
For someone is boring, for someone not ...
Purpose of auto-combat system is to save player from unnecessary routine and speed up the game.
Auto-combat system as it is now is inefficient. Player who use it will have too many looses and will loose most of the time vs player that play battles manually. I talk about master play, on newbies level of play things are different.
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 05, 2011 05:48 AM |
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But players who play manually will likely be better at combat, so they deserve the advantage. Unless you suggest that users of quick combat should be as well off as people who don't.
In any case, I think the solution should be "make the combat more interesting".
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted September 05, 2011 07:05 AM |
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Quote:
But players who play manually will likely be better at combat, so they deserve the advantage.
Good mathematician using computer to speed up his work are cheating or are less good one ? Scholar using computer is good as good is pro mathematician ?
____________
Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 05, 2011 07:44 AM |
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Yeah, I think auto-combat should be an option to save time in trivial and boring battles, not something you do because you can't handle the combat at your own. I don't think there's any risk of auto-combat ever being better than human player at handling complex battles, but it should be able to handle simple battles reasonably well.
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What will happen now?
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Fang
Hired Hero
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posted September 05, 2011 07:09 PM |
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Edited by Fang at 19:10, 05 Sep 2011.
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The only thing I don't like about quickcombat is that once you set it to yes in the game/options menu you have to go back each time in the menu to toggle it.
It's annoying, they should have the option either in the fight or flee window or on the quickslot.
I personally never use quickcombat unless the threat level is weak enough. But major threat levels I prefer to enter the battlfield and fight myself.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted September 06, 2011 06:59 AM |
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Quote:
The only thing I don't like about quickcombat is that once you set it to yes in the game/options menu you have to go back each time in the menu to toggle it.
Don't enable this option if you want to play some battles in manual mode. This option is for players who want to play entire game on auto-combat and want to be sure opponent will not use manual battles mode.
____________
Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted September 06, 2011 10:14 AM |
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Quote:
First of all game need to memorize player choice of army placement before battle and for next battle make army placement like it was in last battle.
I agree with this big time, it's very tedious re-placing all your troops in their positions you want them in. But Don't agree with the auto-combat button, it might be tedious doing the same thing but that's how the game is.....
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted September 06, 2011 11:40 AM |
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Quote:
But Don't agree with the auto-combat button, it might be tedious doing the same thing but that's how the game is.....
Don't understood this part. Auto-combat give you zero looses, still you press "replay battle manually" ?
____________
Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Fang
Hired Hero
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posted September 06, 2011 03:20 PM |
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Edited by Fang at 15:21, 06 Sep 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
The only thing I don't like about quickcombat is that once you set it to yes in the game/options menu you have to go back each time in the menu to toggle it.
Don't enable this option if you want to play some battles in manual mode. This option is for players who want to play entire game on auto-combat and want to be sure opponent will not use manual battles mode.
The game is not designed for you to play the entire game on quickcombat, because like I said there are complicated battles that yield lots of strategies and the AI might use the worst one where as you might of used a better one. Especially on large scale combat, you might want to resolve it on the battlefield. And I don't like the replay combat manually option either after suffering a loss in the hands of the poor AI strategy. So yes, put the quickcombat option in the quickslot so we can toggle it on/off at will.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 06, 2011 11:30 PM |
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Having to enable auto combat in a menu is not necessarily a bad thing. This prevents activating it by accident... which often invites a litany of curses :-).
As for me, the first thing that stops me from using autocombat at all is waste of mana.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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seddy
Known Hero
Spinner of delicious cupcakes
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posted September 07, 2011 01:04 AM |
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Quote:
Having to enable auto combat in a menu is not necessarily a bad thing. This prevents activating it by accident... which often invites a litany of curses :-).
As for me, the first thing that stops me from using autocombat at all is waste of mana.
Same reason for me there. Then I found this little nifty thing that makes AI unable to use spells in autocombat. (Check the options menu). Overall, not more losses or anything, but no mana lost.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted September 07, 2011 08:45 AM |
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Quote:
Then I found this little nifty thing that makes AI unable to use spells in autocombat. (Check the options menu)
For now the only aspect we can control in auto-combat system is to tell hero to cast or not to cast in battle. With system proposed we can tell hero what spell exactly we want him to cast in battle and in what conditions. Lots of space for creativity. This way players can elaborate really unique tactics for auto-combat.
____________
Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted September 07, 2011 01:59 PM |
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Quote:
For now the only aspect we can control in auto-combat system is to tell hero to cast or not to cast in battle. With system proposed we can tell hero what spell exactly we want him to cast in battle and in what conditions. Lots of space for creativity. This way players can elaborate really unique tactics for auto-combat.
But won't this take the essence the Heroes away then? Heroes needs the turn-based vibe, the adventure map to cruize around on, and most of all the chess-like battles to fight in....yes, might get tedious, but we shouldn't really make it like battleships (choosing what to use and where before the battle)
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted September 07, 2011 10:09 PM |
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Edited by Aosaw at 22:13, 07 Sep 2011.
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Yeah, I really don't like this idea.
The purpose of the quick combat is to let the computer do it for you, so that you don't have to play through it yourself.
There's a trade-off to that, in that the computer is not as good at combat as you are. So a battle that you would normally lose nothing, the computer might lose one or two units. And you accept that, because it's what you get when you use quick combat.
As soon as you start micromanaging what spells are used when and what units attack which units...well, first of all it stops being "quick" combat - but more importantly, it removes the mitigating factor.
So, no. Quick combat should be a tool that you use because you are aware of the consequences and you accept them. Not because you're lazy and want the computer to do all the work for you.
Otherwise... Well you might as well play this.
EDIT: Which, by the way, was an awesome game.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted September 07, 2011 11:42 PM |
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Quick combat should be a tool that you use because you are aware of the consequences and you accept them.
So to save my real life time i have to make sacrifices (part of my virtual army) to god with name "Idiotic AI". We can make AI smarter, but no, we like the Idiotic one, if AI will be smarter he will steel our entertainment from killing 5 zombies. Even if killing 5 zombies don't require brain activity, still this occupation help us kill some of our time.
I can't accept this position. If we can make AI better, we must do it. I like to think Heroes game is intellectual game, not time killer one.
Quote:
The purpose of the quick combat is to let the computer do it for you, so that you don't have to play through it yourself.
Purpose of quick combat is to save our time from routine occupations, so we can spent this saved time on more intellectual occupation like building new strategies, fighting more battles vs real opponents etc ...
____________
Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted September 08, 2011 12:10 AM |
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Edited by Aosaw at 00:13, 08 Sep 2011.
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It depends on how quick combat is calculated.
Does it play out the whole battle "off-screen", turn by turn? Can you watch the instant replay of your quick combat?
Or does it simply compare your army with the enemy's army, and allocate losses based on the difference?
I have a feeling it does the latter. In which case, the change you're asking for isn't as simple as you say it is - at least in terms of "saving time". The algorithm could probably be improved, to reflect the basics of common sense; but there's only so many calculations that can be made in the space of an instant, no matter how fast your processor.
As to my point about in-game sacrifices for real-life boons...yes, that's exactly what it is. You sacrifice some of your army's strength in-game to make your turn go comparatively faster. In a timed game, that's also an in-game advantage.
Personally, I never found any issues with quick combat. If you don't want to lose any soldiers, you have two options: 1) Get a bigger army; or 2) Fight the battle yourself.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted September 08, 2011 08:01 AM |
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Quote:
Personally, I never found any issues with quick combat. If you don't want to lose any soldiers, you have two options: 1) Get a bigger army; or 2) Fight the battle yourself.
Quick combat as it is now maybe don't have issues with single player cos in singleplayer looses are not so important. Multiplayer is another story, any looses is important, and i don't have the game time to wait bigger army. Many times i have to accept looses, but this looses are logical looses, planned ... Not because stupid AI want sacrifices from me.
____________
Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 08, 2011 08:27 AM |
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Of course AutoCombat should be as good as possible, the game is there to be fun, not to be about having to go through endless trivial encounters. It's bad enough as it is with drawn-out brawls, having to spend time in tactics phase each time, etc.
I remember in Heroes 4, sometimes if you used auto-combat you'd loose level 4 creatures, whereas if you fought manually and just charged in with your level 4 creatures and did nothing else, you'd smash the enemy with not even close to any losses. So yeah, it deffinitely seems some sort of calculation algorithm other than fighting the combat has been used at least in earlier versions of the game.
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What will happen now?
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