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| Thread: Neutrals - how to make them usefull for the player |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 21, 2011 09:11 AM |
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Neutrals - how to make them usefull for the player
Hello my dear fellow Heroes fans
I would like talk whit you about one certain topic. Tell you what my thoughts are and know what do you think about it.
The topic that I would like to focus on are Neutrals.
What are neutrals? Well generally these are creatures, that are not part of any faction, but are still commonly present in the game. These creatures have been part of the HoM&M (M&M:H) series from its very start. But I?m not here to talk about there legacy, but more about there use, there position in the game and how did they were aplicated in each game.
First of all I would like to talk numbers.
In Heroes I we had 4 basic neutral (Rouge, Djienie, Nomad, Ghost)
In Heroes II this number has been expanded up to 9 (Adding the 4 elementals and the Medusa to the prewies 4)
In Heroes III we only had 6 neutrals in the beginning. But the number later raised up to 15 when the AB expansion added 13 new neutrals and moved 4 of the old ones into a new faction.
I will leave out Heroes VI due to the fact that I do not know many details about this game. But it would be proper to note that the game had a difrent aproche. All the ?neutrals? had belonged to one of the H. IV factions but they were unrecruitable in the towns.
Heroes V had incially 6 neutrals (Phoenix, Death knight, and 4 elementals) and 3 more had came in the first expansion (Wolf, Mummy and Manticore) ending on the total number of 9.
Heroes VI as we know now will come whit 10 basic neutrals (2 wolves, 6 elementals, Phoenix and Mermaid) and 8 bosses.
From the numbers it would look like that in Heroes VI we will get a nice number of neutrals, but if we look between the brackets it does not seem that overwhelming. But these are the number, numbers are not the topic.
The purpose of the neutrals is to create variety and different situations in the game. In many cases they do not have to be balanced in compare to the ?Faction? creatures. We could talk at this point about the the H. III dragons, the H. II nightmare ghost or the djienie from the same game, but most of these neutrals and many more so legendary that it would be a long discussion.
But Neutrals should not only be an unusual enemy. They should give the player an alternative for the structure of his army. I remember that when I was a heroes new-by I loved the ghost in H. II and always wanted to have them in my ranks. The last undead. I Even created a map where I started whit ONE ghost. Sadly the POL. expansion allowed the recruitment of ghosts on a common basis which sort of destroyed that dream. That knowledge how deadly one unite can be.
And now we slowly com to the main topic. How to make the neutrals an interesting feature for the player to use.
This is not an easy task for several reasons. Unlike faction unites, you first have to cqoncer there dwelling, they do not have population bonuses of towns and there are several other obsticlas that make it difficult to usefully used them.
In Heroes III, the flagship of the brand neutrals were treated as common faction unites. There dwelling were guarded in the same manner as the faction ones, they had the same growth rate and if I remember well there numbers did not stack. In practice this meant that you needed at least 3 dwellings for the neutral unite to be an interesting option, because otherwise your castle and the time needed to capture these dwellings gave your faction unites such a numerical advantage that unless you have met your nemesis hero the neutral would never have a chance to catch up. And do not forget that you need 3 dwellings for each castle of the same faction you control.
Heroes V had an even worse aproche to this topic. Most of the neutrals had no own doweling and unless the moders had helped, they were unobtainable on maps. Just ask your self, when was the last time you used a neutral in Heroes V? Was it on an official or fan made map? Which was the last official map that allowed you to use neutrals on a common basis? For me, it was the last map of Aratires campaign.
For Heroes VI, i fail to see the option how to make neutral aplaing for the player. I will skip the fact that I have not seen yet a neutral doweling, we do not have the full game out yet. But on a map that has the full pack of the new features I do not see how they can survive. The conversion feature creates hords and hords of creatures, constantly expanding there population rate. And even if the population of the neutral would be enough, the area of control bounds them to one area where they can be recruited unlike the faction unites where you just need to convert and you have access to all faction unites. Also the Area of control feature resets the piled up stacks if an enemy gains control. In general Heroes VI gives an unnecessarily large emphasis on ?ONE faction only? army structure which acts like a nail in the coffin of neutrals.
In My opinion the best way to implement neutrals into a heroes game had happened in Heroes II. This is due to 3 simple facts. First only some unites could be recruited on the map, which made the neutrals an interesting option for reinforcements on the march. Second They had a population bonus at the start of the game that could be up to 4x the growth rate of there faction equivalents. Finally there numbers piled up and did not reset if visited visited by an enemy hero. This could end up in large numbers that actually can convince the player to recruit them.
I see the neutrals as an esencial part of any game, something that stand out of the line an can surprise. In Heroes we should remember that thay are to be treated whit a different aproche then faction unites. But somehow it looks that many people just keep forgetting this.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 21, 2011 09:26 AM |
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H2 neutrals, weren't they severly overpowered or something?
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted September 21, 2011 01:41 PM |
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It is kinda sad you left H4 off, since it was, imo, the game where neutrals cam to use most. This is for some reasons:
-the neutrals were aligned to a faction still, making them usuable in an army practically as a faction unit
-units could travel without heroes, which deleted the fact that one will not take neutrals because the place is allready needed
-as far as i remember, population could stack
However, I did not really like it that there were no "true neutral" creatures at all...
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 21, 2011 02:05 PM |
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Quote:
It is kinda sad you left H4 off, since it was, imo, the game where neutrals cam to use most. This is for some reasons:
-the neutrals were aligned to a faction still, making them usuable in an army practically as a faction unit
-units could travel without heroes, which deleted the fact that one will not take neutrals because the place is allready needed
-as far as i remember, population could stack
However, I did not really like it that there were no "true neutral" creatures at all...
As I said I am not educated in Heroes VI so it would be fals from me to talk about it, but you mentioned a very important feature.. the neutrals are not affected by racial skill, there are no neutrals that could "cooperate" whit factions. This should not be, we only had some neutral undead but why not an neutral demon that can gate, or an neutral orc that has blood rage? Are for example Mermaid amphibian? If I would add them into my sanctuary army would I still be allowed to walk on water?
Quote:
H2 neutrals, weren't they severly overpowered or something?
Exept for the ghost not really, yes teh Djienie had a nasty pasiv that he could instantly half any stack that it attacked, but thye had only 50 HP (very low for a top tier unite) and there number was set at the beggining of the map and could not reis. The rest of the neutrals were more or less comparable whit most faction unites
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted September 21, 2011 02:22 PM |
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Quote:
As I said I am not educated in Heroes VI so it would be fals from me to talk about it, but you mentioned a very important feature.. the neutrals are not affected by racial skill, there are no neutrals that could "cooperate" whit factions. This should not be, we only had some neutral undead but why not an neutral demon that can gate, or an neutral orc that has blood rage? Are for example Mermaid amphibian? If I would add them into my sanctuary army would I still be allowed to walk on water?
but hasn't that been the weak spot of the racial system on the whole (at least as how it was done)? That some racials affected only faction units...
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 21, 2011 02:28 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
It is kinda sad you left H4 off, since it was, imo, the game where neutrals cam to use most. This is for some reasons:
-the neutrals were aligned to a faction still, making them usuable in an army practically as a faction unit
-units could travel without heroes, which deleted the fact that one will not take neutrals because the place is allready needed
-as far as i remember, population could stack
However, I did not really like it that there were no "true neutral" creatures at all...
As I said I am not educated in Heroes VI so it would be fals from me to talk about it, but you mentioned a very important feature.. the neutrals are not affected by racial skill, there are no neutrals that could "cooperate" whit factions. This should not be, we only had some neutral undead but why not an neutral demon that can gate, or an neutral orc that has blood rage? Are for example Mermaid amphibian? If I would add them into my sanctuary army would I still be allowed to walk on water?
Yes, Mermaids are amphibian, but they aren't affected by Honor (which is the racial skill)
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 21, 2011 02:36 PM |
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Ahh, mermaids... Part-human, part-fish, all caecilian.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 21, 2011 04:44 PM |
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I like Heroes II neutrals the most. I use them regularly. And because they accumulate at a dwelling, (you don't have to visit once per week) and there's a nice starting bonus, they are very useful. Often I try to beat enemies to the dwelling, because even a horde of goblins of rogues can be dangerous.
HII neutrals severely overpowered ? How ? I'll grant you that neutral elementals are basically extra level 5 creatures (HII has 6 levels). But they cost a ton of money, 500 each (In Heroes II there's no capitol, only statues so you earn 1250 per city). And while medusas are worth it, 500 is a lot to ask for a creature with 35 HP, average speed and big size.
HII neutrals are crucial to win some maps. They might be overpowered at times, but they're often used, and that's good. They're often used as mercenaries, hire a lot of them in a short time. Better slightly too strong but meaningful than too weak and ignored.
H2 neutrals offer some unique tactical advantages. There's no wait command, and wolves are the only very fast unit of Barbarian. This means they die a lot. Now if you recruit some Nomads and put assign them to a higher priority, they will soak up the retaliation and allow wolves to wreak havoc.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 21, 2011 08:44 PM |
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Good topic, and I think you have some valid points. Particularly, this is the reason why I always objected to the people (Nightterror) who wanted lots of lots of neutrals:
Quote:
In Heroes III, the flagship of the brand neutrals were treated as common faction unites. There dwelling were guarded in the same manner as the faction ones, they had the same growth rate and if I remember well there numbers did not stack. In practice this meant that you needed at least 3 dwellings for the neutral unite to be an interesting option, because otherwise your castle and the time needed to capture these dwellings gave your faction unites such a numerical advantage that unless you have met your nemesis hero the neutral would never have a chance to catch up. And do not forget that you need 3 dwellings for each castle of the same faction you control.
In essence, in most Heroes games neutrals ended up like a garbage bin for perfectly good units (take the H5 Wolf or Manticore for instance).
That being said, I think there are some things that can be done to justify neutrals:
- Really strong units or units with very strong abilities should be neutrals. H3 AB Dragons and H5 Phoenix are a good example of the former, H2 Ghosts and H5 Death Knights are good examples of this. H6 bosses might also come to serve this purpose.
- Neutrals should include creatures that are not obtainable in the usual way, but who relate to special features like for instance the Summon spells (H5 Elementals and Phoenix). H5 did good in this, apart from the fact that they screwed up the Summon Elementals spell.
- There should be neutrals (if not necessarily all of them) that are alligned with the factions. This was one of the better features of H4. This makes the neutrals more useful, as a stack that joins you will blend into your army without adding morale disadvantages.
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What will happen now?
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted September 21, 2011 10:32 PM |
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I would trade 15 neutrals for +1 faction - any day of the week.
I think game can do even with 0 of them, as long as there is good variety of factions and creatures in them.
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted September 22, 2011 12:11 AM |
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It is my opinion that Homm4 was the best for Neutral creatures. There was a wide variety, and several of them were very powerful and creative. In homm4 it actually made sense to recruit neutrals into your main army, and many of these neutrals had dwellings.
I like the idea of having numerous neutrals available for recruiting (by special on map dwellings) because it helps to bring the world map to life. Otherwise the map feels like a bland terrain between castles that is filled with trees & rocks. Neutrals make it feel like your organized faction lives among a lively world.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted September 22, 2011 06:12 AM |
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Quote:
I would trade 15 neutrals for +1 faction - any day of the week.
I think game can do even with 0 of them, as long as there is good variety of factions and creatures in them.
cannot second that. I think that neutrals add to the variety of the game quite much, even if only for alternate enemies on the map. it seems also not the right way to me, to FORCE some units into factions to have them in if you can just make them neutral...yet of course that depends on the number of factions and creatures overall...with only 5 factions i'm almost tending to agree, since it are sooo few I find it almost painfully...
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ICTC announced
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 22, 2011 07:45 AM |
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The whole point of neutrals is that they're modular. They may be added to your army depending on map and whoever got there first. If you just add another faction, or make factions bigger, then there's no modularity, no choices involved. You just use your entire lineup. With exception of Heroes IV, faction armies always look the same.
I also like neutrals in Heroes IV. Evil Eyes were the only flying shooters ever, and they had the "random curse" ability.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 22, 2011 08:10 AM |
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I think a few neutrals is fine, just not too many. I get your point about neutrals being modular, B0rsuk, but I also think that it's true what was pointed out previously, that in reality they are very rarely an attractive alternative to your normal creatures. Apart from the odd very powerful creatures or creature abilities - Sharpshooters and Enchanters from AB also deserves an HM here - they will simply grow too slow compared to your normal forces. There has to be something "special" to make them worth it.
That being said, H6 does have an interesting opportunity with regard to neutrals courtesy of their creature pool: They could make it so that you can recruit the neutrals from your town once you have flagged the dwelling, and furthermore that could be features to increase neutral growth if the neutral was one aligned with your faction. In that way, they could become a viable alternative, but one that was dependant on you having flagged the external dwelling.
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What will happen now?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 22, 2011 08:44 AM |
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Thanks for everybodys respond
all opinions are valued opinions
I managed to sort out 2 ways how to make Neutrals work in any heroes game, hopefully in heroes VI. Not all neutral have to have a layer of there own, but some should (example for Heroes VI, wolves, and Mermaids could be recruitable, Elementals do not have to, but could be)
1: To make them a treasury style building
This mechanic is very simple, do not make there dwelling flagable and covertable and allow unites to stack in it. The hero that visits this "camp" can then recruit all the unites that are stationed there, also the dwelling should not be reseted when visited by another hero, and a small unite bonus at the start of the map would also be nice.
a.k.a. the Heroes II style
2: Use the new Creature pool system.
The CP allows you to recruit all creature in centers, So in one castle you can have an easy access to several dwellings. But you would have to make there dwelling unconvertible, otherwise they would just be converted and added to the faction pool.
In both cases You have to make them interesting by one, or more of the fallowing features:
A) increased growth rate (to stand a chance against the faction unites and town bonuses).
B) Make them stronger the average. Due to the fact that they are not affected by faction abilities they should have some compensation.
C) Give some of them (some, not all) a faction affinity. We already had several neutral undead (The very first undead was a neutral) so why not a nightmare, as an neutral demon, that can gate if under the command of an inferno hero.
I would personally be happy whit the 1st option (the H2 style). But if there dwelling were unconvertible, I would be happy whit the H6 alternative based on alcibiades, but that would depend on the map, otherwise I think the CP is more of an disadvtage for the neutrals.
Any other opinions how to make them work, and be interesting
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted September 22, 2011 01:36 PM |
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I don't know much about the H6 recruiting system since I've come to expect abotu nothing positive from the game by now. However, there is an option that just popped into my mind:
How about you being able to build neutral dwellings in your town - if you have flagged the dwelling on the adventure map allready. After being built, they would work normally. That could save you to allways return to the dwelling...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 22, 2011 01:58 PM |
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Quote:
I don't know much about the H6 recruiting system since I've come to expect abotu nothing positive from the game by now. However, there is an option that just popped into my mind:
How about you being able to build neutral dwellings in your town - if you have flagged the dwelling on the adventure map allready. After being built, they would work normally. That could save you to allways return to the dwelling...
Well yes, that was pretty much what I was refering to, the option to recruit the neutral creatures through your creature pool in the town, just like any other creatures - and possibly also features to increase the growth of the "neutrals", with the condition that you can only recruit them as long as the external dwelling is under your flag.
Going out on a limb here, I get the idea that we're actually opening a whole new door here, namely the possibility to have city buildings interact with (or depend on) the surrounding terrain and map features. This is very similar to how it works in recent civilization game, where certain tactical ressources (Iron, Horses, Cattle, etc.) can appear different places on the map. If a city has one of these ressources nearby, certain buildings will get added features (like the Forge increasing the production of Iron apart from its normal use) and others are only available if certain ressources are nearby (for instance the Cirkus is only available in town if Horses or Elefants are nearby).
The same could be done for Heroes, like certain buildings interacting with neutral dwellings, or even on a more general level, with adventure map location like Watermills, Windmills, etc.
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What will happen now?
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 22, 2011 02:07 PM |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 22, 2011 07:18 PM |
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Well I didn't like the Heroes 4 approach because you had to choose either to build one dwelling or the other (which might have had some good sides if not for the fact that 9 out of 10 creatures were so poorly balanced that you always went with the same choice - Ogre Magi or Cyclops, anyone?). Anyway, this would not be an either/or case as much as having more options - true, you may not have room for all of them in your army, but it's not like this one would take the place of one of the other dwellings (as I see it).
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What will happen now?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 22, 2011 08:57 PM |
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actually, the only very obvious choices were medusas, genies, vampires and cyclops, which isn't worse than the situation in H5. and it's not even like the alternative choice was poor (well, except ogre mage indeed)
most of the time you had the choice between a flyer / shooter and a walking melee unit being stronger.
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