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| Thread: Some Thoughs on the Heroes Formula |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 05:40 PM |
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Quote:
Stop oversimplifying for the sake of winning the argument.
I'm not against people picking their favorite units. If you like furies best, by all means use them. The problem with the "grocery list" method of design is that as soon as the player gains access to the Elite tier, they will almost always go for the Glories first, because they're the best of the options available. There's no "making do with what you have and learning to make it work", because the player can use their favorite strategy right off the bat with no additional effort.
I should also point out that giving each building a Town Level requirement would resolve a lot of these issues; I'm just trying to shed some light on a point of view you seem intent on belittling.
You will go with the glories because of an inherent balance issue (glories being OP). This has nothing to do with the system itself. If all choices were equally strong and tempting, or nearly so, would you still complain? I don't think so, and that's the flaw in your argument.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 05:40 PM |
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Quote:
And how is that different from H5?
If you don't see the difference, well ..., sorry i can't help you 
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted October 01, 2011 05:58 PM |
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That's where my argument is flawed? That the creatures aren't balanced?
Sure. If all creatures were the same strength and no creature was better than any other, I would have no problem with all dwellings being available right off the bat. Recruit your champion unit on Day One, that's fine. It still doesn't really contribute to strategy, but okay.
Not all creatures are going to be equal. There are going to be some creatures that are just better than others. Everyone is going to go for the best unit available, because (if nothing else) that's the point of the game.
If you make that creature available in the first turn, the game is flawed, not my argument.
But I imagine that I might be oversimplifying your argument. So let's assume you mean "Assume that all Elite tier creatures are evenly balanced and provide enough tactical options that players will want different units for different strategies". First of all, this isn't the case, and I doubt that it ever will be. It's a pipe-dream, but since it's the ideal, let's look at the issue within ideal circumstances.
I look at it this way. In Heroes 5, your building tree had five tiers. The first tier let you build your level 1 dwelling, your blacksmith, your tavern, and your village hall. Tier 2 let you build some additional dwellings, one or two unique buildings, maybe a Town Hall, and a Mage Guild. Tier 3 expanded on those options, letting you recruit more creatures and build more unique buildings, boosting your income and creature growth. Tier 4 let you recruit some of your highest-level creatures, as well as capping either your Capitol or your fortifications. Finally, Tier 5 let you recruit your champion unit.
It created five very distinct stages of play. The game is remarkably changed when you hit a new tier.
In Heroes 6, there are three tiers. In Tier 1, you can recruit all three core creatures, you can build a marketplace and a hall of heroes, you can build fortifications, and you can build a town hall. In Tier 2, you can recruit all three elite creatures, you can built a town portal and one of two unique buildings (but not both), you can improve fortifications, and you can build a city hall. In Tier 3, you can recruit your champion unit, improve your town portal and fortifications, build one of two unique buildings (but not both), and you can build a capitol.
The tiers still create very distinct stages of play, but there are only three of them.
Now, are you really telling me that three stages of gameplay is better or more strategically deep than five? Even ignoring creature balance (which currently doesn't exist), there are two stages less depth in Heroes 6 than there were in Heroes 5.
So maybe what you should be saying is that building everything whenever you want to creates more strategic breadth. From what I can tell, Heroes 6 is actually fairly shallow.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted October 01, 2011 05:58 PM |
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I agree with the ones wanting prerequisites back. Town building in H6 is boring. But one should at the same time avoid useless buildings, and make for instance marketplace more useful.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted October 01, 2011 06:00 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
And how is that different from H5?
If you don't see the difference, well ..., sorry i can't help you
I'm sorry, but if you want to convince me that your point is at all valid, you have to explain your case. Otherwise I have no choice but to ignore you.
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 06:11 PM |
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Quote:
That's where my argument is flawed? That the creatures aren't balanced?
Sure. If all creatures were the same strength and no creature was better than any other, I would have no problem with all dwellings being available right off the bat. Recruit your champion unit on Day One, that's fine. It still doesn't really contribute to strategy, but okay.
Not all creatures are going to be equal. There are going to be some creatures that are just better than others. Everyone is going to go for the best unit available, because (if nothing else) that's the point of the game.
If you make that creature available in the first turn, the game is flawed, not my argument.
But I imagine that I might be oversimplifying your argument. So let's assume you mean "Assume that all Elite tier creatures are evenly balanced and provide enough tactical options that players will want different units for different strategies". First of all, this isn't the case, and I doubt that it ever will be. It's a pipe-dream, but since it's the ideal, let's look at the issue within ideal circumstances.
I look at it this way. In Heroes 5, your building tree had five tiers. The first tier let you build your level 1 dwelling, your blacksmith, your tavern, and your village hall. Tier 2 let you build some additional dwellings, one or two unique buildings, maybe a Town Hall, and a Mage Guild. Tier 3 expanded on those options, letting you recruit more creatures and build more unique buildings, boosting your income and creature growth. Tier 4 let you recruit some of your highest-level creatures, as well as capping either your Capitol or your fortifications. Finally, Tier 5 let you recruit your champion unit.
It created five very distinct stages of play. The game is remarkably changed when you hit a new tier.
In Heroes 6, there are three tiers. In Tier 1, you can recruit all three core creatures, you can build a marketplace and a hall of heroes, you can build fortifications, and you can build a town hall. In Tier 2, you can recruit all three elite creatures, you can built a town portal and one of two unique buildings (but not both), you can improve fortifications, and you can build a city hall. In Tier 3, you can recruit your champion unit, improve your town portal and fortifications, build one of two unique buildings (but not both), and you can build a capitol.
The tiers still create very distinct stages of play, but there are only three of them.
Now, are you really telling me that three stages of gameplay is better or more strategically deep than five? Even ignoring creature balance (which currently doesn't exist), there are two stages less depth in Heroes 6 than there were in Heroes 5.
So maybe what you should be saying is that building everything whenever you want to creates more strategic breadth. From what I can tell, Heroes 6 is actually fairly shallow.
Haha, recruit a champion on day one? You're taking this ad absurdum. You know very well that the game can't be balanced if you could train champions on day 1, nor will you ever be able to.
You say that units can never be balanced, but do you realize that you could say the exact same thing about having building prerequisites? There will ALWAYS be strategies and creatures favoured over others, which is why I mentioned that in the end, in the competitive metagame at least, it will not matter either way.
Five distinct tiers of play prevents the player from innovating. I don't know about you, but I'm excited to see what metagames we all can come up with. The more rigid the structure, the less creativity plays a role in the game.
Finally, stop comparing Heroes 6 at the moment to ToTE. You're comparing a game in its beta phase with the final expansion of a mature game. In order to make a valid comparison, we have to compare the systems and evaluate whether it's possible to balance different strategies and creatures, not whether it is balanced NOW. If heroes 6 manages to balance out the different factions and units, keeping its open building system intact, it will be much more strategic than H5.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted October 01, 2011 06:18 PM |
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@Elvin,
Very good game you've got there. Where can I get it?
I know you like H5 too, so I "think" I can say this safely. I think both the overall Magic, racial traits, skills etc. approach "while not perfect" was still very good. I would have kept it in-place in H6 and tried to expand each area.
It seems to me that "new" can push decisions beyond reason. However, like you said, this is really all dialed back to the likes of...one. But, I have to say, (I am still playing H5.5) and I am still getting some abilities for the first time. To me... that's a good thing but...never-mind
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted October 01, 2011 06:19 PM |
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Okay, you clearly missed the joke that was the first four paragraphs of that post. That's my fault, because I should have put a winky face at the end of each of them. 
I've said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again: The issue could probably be resolved with town level requirements. In other words, "Before you build X, you must have already built Y number of buildings in this town."
Again, this is probably my fault, because I didn't state that position in big bold letters, and because I started out by defending the position that building prerequisites weren't the bane of all existence. So let me put it as clearly as I can:
I don't have a problem with a more loosely structured building system. What I think would make more sense from both a balance and a gameplay perspective is if each building had a requirement of "Town Level". In other words, before you build your Town Portal, your town has to be level 6 (i.e. you must have already built six buildings in that town). This ensures that the top-level buildings remain top-level, and allows for stages of play that emphasize the lower-level buildings as well. It doesn't have to be specific building requirements, but something should be put in place to prevent 'twinking'.
Is that clear?
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2011 06:27 PM |
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Quote:
I don't have a problem with a more loosely structured building system. What I think would make more sense from both a balance and a gameplay perspective is if each building had a requirement of "Town Level". In other words, before you build your Town Portal, your town has to be level 6 (i.e. you must have already built six buildings in that town). This ensures that the top-level buildings remain top-level, and allows for stages of play that emphasize the lower-level buildings as well. It doesn't have to be specific building requirements, but something should be put in place to prevent 'twinking'.
Is that clear?
Well, we both want the same thing (balance), but we disagree in how we want it done. You want to balance factions/creatures by having building prereqs, whereas I want to see them balanced through stat/ability modifications..In the end, I think you would see more diverse (in terms of strategy) strategies if you balanced without prereqs, which to me brings a certain flavour in the game.
If I'm playing against inferno, for example, I want to be able to face a huge army of cores with some elites one game, and maybe an army of pure champs the next. This brings a certain air of "unexpectedness" that makes the game fresh game after game, although it would obviously require a lot of attention from the devs. Still, if starcraft can do it (albeit still not "perfectly"), I believe heroes can.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted October 01, 2011 06:39 PM |
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Edited by Aosaw at 18:40, 01 Oct 2011.
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I don't know about that. I like the fact that some creatures (i.e. higher-tier ones) are significantly more powerful.
I like that a single dragon could reasonably take on an army of peasants, you know? That makes real-world (such as it is) sense to me.
To me, requirements (building or town level, take your pick)give the developers license to make certain creatures more potent than others. It lets them say, "Hey, this unit isn't available until week three - let's make it a real game-changer."
You might say that reduces the strategic options, but I would say it lends an element of excitement to the game that wouldn't otherwise be there. You have to build something every day or you fall behind. And since you're building something every day, you might as well decide what order you want to build things in - and that order determines your strategy.
I think the 3-tier system (3, 3 and 1) may have been a mistake, if only because it homogenizes the town development into three more or less identical stages. That's not to say that dividing things into tiers wasn't a bad idea, but I think four tiers (2, 2, 2 and 1) might have been better, and five tiers (2, 2, 2, 1, and 1, with the top-tier being a true champion that isn't dwarfed by bosses) would have been best, allowing for additional options to be created.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 01, 2011 09:22 PM |
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@Gweret
Have you seen the H5 skillwheel mod? I think something like that could work fine if they did not overcrowd each skill category.
@Infinitus
The way H6 works, guilds could offer a selection of scrolls amongst other things. I'd like that.
@Brukernavn
What I had in mind was both basic units being similar, except one would be more offensive and the other more defensive. The whole point would be to use them as counters(arrow protection, more damage against undead etc) against the various neutrals you may get, without depending on specific hero spells/abilities. Initially both units would have minor specials so as to be similar, further specialization in their roles would come with their upgrade.
It wouldn't necessarily have to be for all units, some could be upgradable while others would be possible to choose its alternative for extra adaptability.
I hated the H4 way, for one the choices were not balanced and secondly there were no upgrades. It makes more sense to pick between two different specializations of the same unit than two completely different units, easier to balance too. Besides different needs arise throughout the game and according to which factions remain a threat in any given time.
You are right about one thing though, if there was a choice between an extra faction or alternatives I'd go with the former.
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As far as town prerequisites go I very much liked them, gave towns a more distinct feel. Like fortress allowing for a day 3 wyvern building or stronghold being possible to rush behemoths. Then there were little touches like angels requiring a monastery or swordsmen a blacksmith, it just felt right. As long as the building prerequisites are not useless, why would anyone dislike them? It beats building city hall + 3 core units on the first week. With every single faction.
It's all about finding a way to make prerequisites useful, in a way that they give specific strengths and a distinct flavour. Also making certain units come later in play whether the map is poor or rich. One faction could work great with an accessible elite dwelling on week 1 while another with more accessible core upgrades or basic cores plus a special building that boosts them or the hero.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted October 01, 2011 11:19 PM |
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It wouldn't necessarily have to be for all units, some could be upgradable while others would be possible to choose its alternative for extra adaptability.
Now that actually sounded a little interesting.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 02, 2011 02:59 AM |
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I prefer the idea of straight building prerequisites to town-level prerequisites, they allow you more flexibility, so you can still rush to champion units early on, but it will cost you not being able to get the other two elite units until later.
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gabor
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 02, 2011 10:43 AM |
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@ Elvin
I couldn't agree more with your original post. The words 'feel' and 'legacy' are very much in place imo.
Then, why don't we guys, each of us, make a simple list with what was added and subtructed in H6, and if we like the change. My list's outcome goes definitely in favour of H3 and H5. I don't like uniformity the new game offers and preferred the diversity of the previous incarnations.
As for town buildings discussion. Players will always go for the win option (be it strong cores, the best elite or week 1 champion). This was pbly also true for olderd games, but in H6 it makes creeping boring, the weeker creeps pose little challenge, for the stronger you simply have to wait a week or two.
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2011 12:53 AM |
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I don't like uniformity the new game offers and preferred the diversity of the previous incarnations.
Amen to that!
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einomida
Known Hero
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posted October 03, 2011 01:15 AM |
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Did H3 factions have skill affinities like in H5? I mean, for example Rampart having 5% chance of getting luck and 10% Earth Magic.
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 03, 2011 01:33 AM |
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Did H3 factions have skill affinities like in H5? I mean, for example Rampart having 5% chance of getting luck and 10% Earth Magic.
Different heroes have different likelihoods of getting different skills, so yes.
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 03, 2011 03:21 AM |
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Very nice post Elvin 
Skills- 8 skills are too much in my opinion, I found that absurd in H3. Maybe a 6th skill after you completely upgraded your 5 skills would be good as in H5 after level 30 or smt. you don't get any skills as they are finished already. Other than that I support your ideas.
Magic- This complete section of your post is brilliant.
Army- As you may remember, alternative upgrades is the thing I have complained about the lackness of, since the game was announced. So your suggestion suits me well 
Town- Altough I agree to give Blacksmith more usefulness, as I never buy anything from it, the use you suggest would give way to some imbalances. Also it sounds like unit artifats, Academy's racial ability in H5, and that would eliminate the uniqueness of Academy altough we don't have it in this game.
Adv. Map- Altough I agree with most of it the "special terrain" thing is not my thing. They would create a huge imbalance in a combat between a mage and might hero, as a mage would have spent everything to advance in his magics but all his advancement would go to waste in a batlle on cursed grounds.
Battlefield- This is the area of the game I'm most conservative about. For me, there should be even no terrain obstacles, let alone exterior things coming to the combat, like water or lightning etc. I don't like anything in a strategy game that is decided by luck. But spells affecting the battlefield is reasonable, I would like to see the tiles to where a fireball dropped a while ago to burn on for some turns. It could even be a cosmetic affect, not happenning in an all-disappeared state like it was in H5.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 03, 2011 08:34 AM |
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It beats building city hall + 3 core units on the first week. With every single faction.
Exactly! Every faction seems to have the same route in building in H6....we need building prerequisites that are different for each faction...
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 03, 2011 09:16 AM |
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If I'm playing against inferno, for example, I want to be able to face a huge army of cores with some elites one game, and maybe an army of pure champs the next. This brings a certain air of "unexpectedness" that makes the game fresh game after game
The possibility to do this depends entirely on the map. So far only Broken Alliance allows you to have a week 1 Champion, on the rest of the maps it's not very wise to rush for an early Champion and frankly you are not really able to do it, except if you can beat all the neutrals around with your starting army + eventually the reinforcements from secondary heroes.
As for the prerequisites in general, the problem is related to the balance as it is now. Making certain creature more difficult to acquire will will go hand in hand with increasing its relative power, otherwise the prerequisite itself makes no sense. On the other hand, all creatures inside each tier are supposed to be "equally powerful" so if one of them has a prerequisite which makes it harder to get, the whole idea about the "equality" is ruined as you'll get one of the creatures from the respective tier later than the rest but this will not be compensated by some OMG ability/stats that the said creature has because it not very different from its "tier-mates" in this regard. In practice though the creatures inside each tier are not balanced - the Cerberus is the worst Inferno Core, the Glory is the best Haven Elite, the Skeleton is considerably less useful than the Ghoul and the Ghost and so on. This is however an unintended flaw (I hope that it is) which needs to be fixed and not further emphasized.
In short - adding prerequisites given the new system is quite likely to mess the things up. The only thing that can be done is to add a universal prerequisite template for all factions - for instance one building from the previous tier needed to get any creature from the next tier. This is no different from what we currently have though and will only make the upper tiers harder to get which is a bad idea.
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