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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Dennis Ritchie is dead
Thread: Dennis Ritchie is dead This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 13, 2011 10:52 AM

Dennis Ritchie is dead

Link

Who? The co-creator of Unix and C. If you're reading this on a Mac made in the last 10 years (or iPhone or any Android device) or running Linux (or Solaris, or any distribution of BSD), you're running a Unix-like operating system. The vast majority of programs you have ever used were programmed in C or one of its descendants. It's not an exaggeration to say this man laid the foundation for the way computers are used today.

Much more important than Steve Jobs.
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted October 13, 2011 12:14 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 12:29, 13 Oct 2011.

Quote:
Much more important than Steve Jobs


Rofl  

Comparing two dead people is a great pass-time by the way

Was that really necessary Mvass?
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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted October 14, 2011 01:28 AM

Well done Mvass. With these kinds of things you write, it makes you seem like such an idiot. Much more important than Steve Jobs? Who the hell are you to say that. Your posts get worse and worse as time goes on.
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Shyranis
Shyranis


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 14, 2011 02:03 AM

Well, without the C language there wouldn't even be any of the operating systems we know today... or they'd all be written in something else. But how many years would it have set us back if we didn't have C when we did instead of waiting for the next person to invent it? He did actually advance the human race as a whole.

Jobs was't a bad person, but he just didn't do so much for the entire human race except make touchscreen battery hogging phones popular compared to other phones with batteries that lasted a couple weeks to a week (depending on features). He was a great person in that he was very successful, and a lot of people will miss him, but he just hasn't done as much as Dennis. A person who most people (self included) don't even know what he looks like. That says a lot.

I do agree that the comparison in the original post was completely unnecessary though, despite my response to it.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted October 14, 2011 02:30 AM

No need to call anyone an idiot.  If you disagree with someone's post, you can say it in a nice way.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 14, 2011 02:52 AM

The comparison to Steve Jobs is necessary. Look at how much media attention is being paid to Steve Jobs's death. But Dennis Ritchie, someone much more important, is hardly mentioned anywhere. Between someone who convinced people to waste their money and someone who laid the groundwork for programming as we know it today - it's an interesting comparison. The fact is, most of what Jobs promoted was built with Ritchie's creations or derived from them.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted October 14, 2011 03:13 AM

Quote:
waste their money

How, exactly, is the money wasted?

Quote:
someone who laid the groundwork for programming as we know it

You mean someone who laid the groudnwork for making it possible for people to more efficiently waste their money?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 14, 2011 04:52 AM

The money is wasted because they could've spent less money for a product that is almost exactly the same. Sure, I understand about consumer sovereignty and personal preference and all that, I'm an econ major. But when someone buys something with an inferior operating system and ~1.5 markup, they're wasting their money.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted October 14, 2011 05:16 AM

Quote:
The money is wasted because they could've spent less money for a product that is almost exactly the same. Sure, I understand about consumer sovereignty and personal preference and all that, I'm an econ major. But when someone buys something with an inferior operating system and ~1.5 markup, they're wasting their money.

Value is not determined solely by function, as I'm sure you well know, and even if it WERE, function is not so easy to quantify.  They might have wasted money in YOUR opinion, but really, mvass, who gives a snow about your opinion?

I've no problem saying (again) that I have an ipod touch, and I don't consider it a waste of money at all.  It does everything I want it to do, does it well, and does many things I didn't know it did; AND it does things that, while (maybe) technically possible with other devices, does them much easier and more efficiently.  AND I happen to like the way it is designed.  *AND* I got a good deal on it.

I used to have an mp3 player made by another company, and yes - function wise it did the same thing as the comparatively more expensive ipods of the day, but it was also big, clunky and ugly.  And to be honest, I thought the software it came with was far inferior to itunes. Is $100 a waste to buy something that accomplishes the same task but is more elegantly designed?

*shrugs*

Not in my opinion.  But I guess that's the whole point, isn't it?  The fact that most people probably haven't even heard of Mr. Ritchie says a lot, I agree - but it doesn't necessarily say what you seem to think it does.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 14, 2011 06:40 AM

I have nothing against the iPod Touch. It occupies a unique niche in the market and doesn't have any competitors (at least in the US). I have one. It's convenient to be able to access WiFi anywhere and store a good quantity of music. (That said, it was a gift and I would never buy it for myself.) I don't have anything against the iPhone either, at least nothing I don't have against any other smartphone - they're more expensive and have a lower battery life, and data plans are costly, but if you prefer that, suit yourself, and if you're going to get a smartphone, the iPhone is just as good as any of the others.

I do have something against Macs and normal iPods, though. Compare this MacBook Pro and this roughly equivalent PC laptop (actually, the PC has slightly better hardware, but it's the closest I could find. $2500 vs $1500 - the MacBook is 67% more expensive. I understand some people like the way the MacBook looks, but is the difference worth a thousand dollars? Perhaps they like the operating system because it's less likely to get viruses. In that case, they should use Linux, which is similar and safer (and free to use and easy to install). And OSX has the obvious disadvantage that many PC programs haven't been ported to it. (Granted, there are some OSX-only programs, but how many people who buy Macs take advantage of them?) The iPod is similarly overpriced - the 16 GB iPod Nano is $150, while typical 16 GB MP3 players usually cost somewhere between $50 and $100. As for iTunes, it's bloatware and there are better ways of uploading stuff to your iDevice.

That said, it's not surprising many people haven't heard of Ritchie. He wasn't a salesman, nor did he design anything for the end user. But his work was much more important fundamentally.
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted October 14, 2011 10:05 AM

Quote:
Was that really necessary Mvass?
You didn't expect anything else, did you?
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 14, 2011 11:20 AM

I'd like to know exactly what's wrong with my comparison. They're two major tech people who died recently. One received a lot of attention, and the other didn't. It's a fair comparison.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted October 14, 2011 11:25 AM

Mvass always brings the Otherside lulz

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AlexSpl
AlexSpl


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted October 14, 2011 01:23 PM

Quote:
One received a lot of attention, and the other didn't. It's a fair comparison.

As though they care of attention now.

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Trogdor
Trogdor


Legendary Hero
Words in a custom title
posted October 14, 2011 02:09 PM

Quote:
I'd like to know exactly what's wrong with my comparison. They're two major tech people who died recently. One received a lot of attention, and the other didn't. It's a fair comparison.


Amazing how easy it is to forget those who created IT products we take for granted. The people who create the program codes (C, Java, Python et al) are too often forgotten, even after death.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted October 14, 2011 03:16 PM

Quote:
but is the difference worth a thousand dollars?

Bringing us around full circle.  

Is it worth it?  Depends on who you are and what you care about.  I don't think it's worth paying $250 for a pair of Gucci jeans when I can get an equally functional pair at Old Navy for $25.  A lot of people do buy Gucci jeans, though, so there must be some value they get that I don't... either that or they value a dollar less than I do.  For me it's a waste.  For them it's not.  C'est la vie.

But you've already happily bragged that you're an econ major, and that you know all about consumer sovereignty and personal preference and all that.  On the other hand, why let some good facts get in the way of a fun argument.  

Right?

And you wonder why people think you play devil's advocate.  

In the end, it's fine to state that you value Mr. Ritchie's contribution to "society" more than Mr. Jobs's.  Because everyone has their own evaluation algorithm.  Where you cross the line is stating as objective fact who or what is more valuable than who or what else.  Comparisons of one life or thing to another, too, are unnecessary; in my opinion a thing's or a person's accomplishments should stand or fall on their own merits.  You can speculate about how a person's life affects society as a whole, but you must recognize that fundamentally it's a rather subjective opinion.  To portray it as otherwise is wrong, for one thing, and for another, people just don't appreciate being indirectly ridiculed or criticized for what or whom they like and admire.

Unless you derive some peculiar satisfaction from seeing people get annoyed?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 14, 2011 03:59 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 16:02, 14 Oct 2011.

I think we can evaluate, to some extent, great people's "effect" on the world by simply wondering how would the world look without them.

Without Ritchie? Well, I guess the Unix and C line would either not be created, or would be somehow different. Would it be better? Can't say. Perhaps another system would rise, or perhaps we'd be in the dark age now still working with limited programist languages like Pascal and using inferior OS.

Without Jobs? Less people would buy Apple products. Wouldn't really sadden me sine mac products usually are overpriced heavily for what they offer.

So I think Mvass has some right to say Ritchie was arguably more important for an average person of the world since what he did affected more people in general and in a bigger way. I don't use Mac products so I don't really care for their business, but I sure use programs written in C and its descendants.

Not that I agree with "rating" dead people, of course.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted October 14, 2011 04:26 PM

Alright, Doomforge, since it's so easy to do so objectively.

Mohandas Ghandi vs. Franklin Roosevelt

Who had the greater "effect" on the world?

I put effect in quotes since you did, though I'm not sure of the purpose.  And also, I consider this a far easier question to answer than one involving Jobs, since Jobs died a few days ago and it's impossible to know how his life will have impacted the world in, say, 50 years.  Unless you're telling me that you and mvass can see into the future as well?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 14, 2011 05:35 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 17:43, 14 Oct 2011.

Those are political figures so it's really really hard to judge what impact they had on the world. Even after thousand years it's still hard for historicans.

On the other hand, when we take a marketing guy (which as far as I understand Steve Jobs is), and a guy that practically co-invented the systems that shaped modern PCs... much easier.

Still, I'm against giving more praise to the more "useful", as rating people after death is rather... cold. Even if I somehow feel that a, say, brilliant doctor that saved thousands of lives did a lot more for the good of the world than a, say, known singer. Nobody bothers with the doctor, but the singer will be mourned for a long time.

To clarify, I have nothing against Steve Jobs. Nor do I fully agree with mvass on the matter.

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted October 14, 2011 05:39 PM

Jobs impact on the world will last for another 5-15 years, or perhaps 40-50 if you count the fact that blatant design copy will last until the entire techology is reshaped in formfactor.
The UNIX and C guy? Until somebody writes something that is not C, which is not based nor written in C, and it gets widespread and replaces C, his impact will last until then.

What is really Jobs legacy is that he joined a line of people with a special moral.
The moral is simple: "We sit down, find problems, and fix and innovate them, properly."
If there was more CEOs like him, we would not bat a eyelash at him, because he is just one of the many.

And what do I mean:
The "excellent moral" is a stark contrast to what a CEO in US moral is: "I go to that company, do something to raise the stock value, do something to reduce the total amount of production so I can claim there was more profit?"
They usually take advantage of the fact that the company has a lot of setup contracts(free profit), or dump R&D into some trashbin and claiming a decent % of that for themselves.
The next thing that happens is that they predict how far the company is from losing profit, and parachutes out with a few million dollars more it reaches that point.
Then the next CEO will have the same moral, or he will sit there with a sunken ship and attempt to rescue it.
IBM and HP are examples of such companies.
The next problem is that the shareholders wants profit, and when the stock prize rises, they will sell their share out to earn money. Which seems good in theory, until you realize that the only way to make longterm profits is to forfeit all short term profit.

Example: Once upon a time IBM spent a lot on R&D, and whenever there was a challange, they threw themselves over it with their competance and techology.
And then the company top changed, and it turned into another sad company.

Example2: The US banking crysis. A bank produces profit at a stable rate, meaning the only thing the stockholders want is either to earn money on the bank, or get it suecidal in order to earn more money.
So they somehow managed to make it legal to do that, and thats what they did.
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