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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: How much control should public schools have over student behavior?
Thread: How much control should public schools have over student behavior? This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted November 06, 2011 08:14 PM
Edited by Elodin at 20:16, 06 Nov 2011.

How much control should public schools have over student behavior?

How much control should public schools have over student behavior and should schools have "zero tolerance" policies?

In my opinion "zero tolerance" policies make no sense. Each situation should be judged on the specific facts surrounding the event in question.

Various "zero tolerance" school policies that have lead to unfair results have made me irate over the years. The latest involves a boy and girl engaged in what was a seemingly innocent hug between classes when they greeted each other that resulted in the suspension of both students. Hugging is bad? Is it a public school board's prerogative to define hugging as bad? In my opinion whoever made the policy overstepped their bounds. Hugging is a natural human behavior that occurs in various social situations. I can understand that the school is not the place for a make-out session but banning all hugs seems bizarre to me.

Clilcky
Quote:

Nick Martinez said he hugged his best friend, a female student, quickly between classes, according to WKMG-TV, Orlando, and never thought the gesture would result in suspension. The principal at Southwest Middle School in Palm Bay saw the hug and brought the two students to the dean, who issued a one-day in-school suspension.

“Honestly, I didn’t know, because I didn’t think hugging was a bad thing. I didn’t know you could get suspended for it,” Martinez told WKMG-TV. “A lot of friends are hugging. I just happened to be the one caught doing it.”
........

“We cannot make an opinion or judgment call on whether a hug is appropriate or not. It’s very difficult to police that on campus,” Christine Davis, the  public information officer for Brevard County Public Schools, told ABC News.



Really? A mature adult can't tell the difference between a friendly greeting hug and a make out session? If the principal who saw the students hugging can't tell the difference between a greeting and a make out session the principal needs to find a new line of work.

Zero tolerance policies that don't allow the administrator to use their brain and good judgement lead to unfair, foolish, and destructive rulings.

Here is one more example. There are plenty.
Clicky
Quote:

NEWARK, Del. — Finding character witnesses when you are 6 years old is not easy. But there was Zachary Christie last week at a school disciplinary committee hearing with his karate instructor and his mother’s fiancé by his side to vouch for him.

Zachary’s offense? Taking a camping utensil that can serve as a knife, fork and spoon to school. He was so excited about recently joining the Cub Scouts that he wanted to use it at lunch. School officials concluded that he had violated their zero-tolerance policy on weapons, and Zachary was suspended and now faces 45 days in the district’s reform school.


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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted November 06, 2011 08:44 PM
Edited by Vlaad at 20:47, 06 Nov 2011.

I thought zero tolerance mostly referred to weapons and drugs. What else is banned?

My music teacher caught my girlfriend and me kissing in the corridor. He told us to report to the head teacher. The head teacher told us the music teacher was an idiot.

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Duke_Falcon
Duke_Falcon


Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
posted November 06, 2011 08:50 PM

I read this and...

What's next? Public execution for a kiss? Or just throw them in a dark pit for 3 days?

Seriously!

I can understand certain regulations in school but this is something else.
If someone make something wrong (disrespect a superior in public, ashaming someone publicly, steal, bully...) must be punished somehow! But these things, like the hug, is way different...



O, great Lord... This shows that humans could be the most idiotic things in the universe
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 06, 2011 10:17 PM

wow this sounds like an april fools joke

Of course this is wrong, I can't see how anyone would disagree.

I do not think that schools have any right to decide what clothes the students should or should not wear etc.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 07, 2011 01:54 AM

Obviously Elodin is going to endorse "zero tolerance policies"-
Quote:
In my opinion "zero tolerance" policies make no sense.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted November 07, 2011 01:59 AM

I'm guessing Elodin would endorse a zero tolerance policy on abortion.

Snow.... did I just bring up abortion?

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted November 07, 2011 03:24 AM

Quote:
I'm guessing Elodin would endorse a zero tolerance policy on abortion.

Snow.... did I just bring up abortion?


Public schools should not be involved in abortion and should not punish a girl if she has an abortion. Schools should be in the business of academics.

If you wish to discuss why I believe it is wrong to kill an unborn baby (and should not be tolerated by society) unless the life of the mother is at stake we can do so in the abortion thread.

If a child violates a school policy the administrator should consider a number of things such as:
1) Did the child intend to violate the policy.
2) What is the intent of the policy.
3) Is the child likely to violate the policy again?
4) What corrective measures make sense?

My second example was a 6 year old boy bringing his new cub scout utility utensil to school to eat his lunch with. The boy did not think of his new toy as a weapon. Does it make sense to send him to reform school for a month and a half? Could not the situation have been resolved by the teacher explaining to the boy that even though his new cub scout utensil is cool he can't bring it to school because it has a knife that could be used to hurt someone with?

Rules should be applied by someone who has at least a rudimentary ability to reason and who understands what the purpose of the rule is.

And as for the rule against all hugging, that is rather bizarre. Hugging when greeting a friend is not behavior that is inappropriate and should be punished. If the rule is in place to prevent sexual harassment apply to to non-consensual hugging. If the rule is in place to prevent make-out sessions on school campus, apply it accordingly.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted November 07, 2011 08:15 AM

"Zero Tolerance" really means: "We will not judge this in a sane way in a case to base basis, but instead do random snow."
Example:
Zero Tolerance against violence really means that you are free to verbally abuse and harras anybody, and they will be in trouble if they fight back on fair grounds.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 07, 2011 10:26 AM
Edited by Fauch at 10:28, 07 Nov 2011.

Quote:
If a child violates a school policy the administrator should consider a number of things such as:
1) Did the child intend to violate the policy.
2) What is the intent of the policy.
3) Is the child likely to violate the policy again?
4) What corrective measures make sense?

common sense is overated

Quote:
Rules should be applied by someone who has at least a rudimentary ability to reason and who understands what the purpose of the rule is.

actually, I don't think it is the purpose of rules. the purpose is to force you to do or not do something rather than explaining you why you should or should not do such thing, in which case, if you understood, the rule is no longer needed.
but it seems that we agree about that anyway.

and aren't rules often made by people who think they are more clever or superior?

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
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Mostly harmless
posted November 07, 2011 11:29 AM
Edited by baklava at 11:42, 07 Nov 2011.

Quote:
zero-tolerance policy on weapons

I recon they do get school forks and knives for lunch?

If they do, I'd sue the school for giving children access to lethal weapons. If a fork and a spoon are ruled not to be lethal weapons, I would sue the school for traumatizing and bullying my 6 year old child.

As for the other school, I'd plant syringes into the toilets just to freak the hell out of the principal. And I would pretend I'm a Muslim and ask if that's the real reason for punishing my kid for nothing and attempting to stop him from communicating with other, especially female, students. In public. Very loudly.

In both cases, I'd get my children the **** out of there and take them someplace sane.
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted November 07, 2011 11:53 AM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 11:55, 07 Nov 2011.

I'm certain that an adult is "superior" or more "intelligent" then a child.
 
Rules are there as 'guidelines', teachers who follow them to the letter are morons IMO; they were hired, because they're intelligent enough, and have the capabilities to accurately evaluate a situation and address it appropriately. Any monkey can follow an order, that does not make them a teacher/soldier.


(can, not will )
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 07, 2011 12:15 PM
Edited by Fauch at 12:18, 07 Nov 2011.

Quote:
I'm certain that an adult is "superior" or more "intelligent" then a child.


I'm not certain. inside a certain frame, it certainly is true, but absolutely, I don't know.

here is an example :
Quote:
My second example was a 6 year old boy bringing his new cub scout utility utensil to school to eat his lunch with. The boy did not think of his new toy as a weapon. Does it make sense to send him to reform school for a month and a half? Could not the situation have been resolved by the teacher explaining to the boy that even though his new cub scout utensil is cool he can't bring it to school because it has a knife that could be used to hurt someone with?


contrary to the adult, the child doesn't think of his toy as a weapon. so, who is more clever? the adult for imagining how he could use such an object to harm someone?

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted November 07, 2011 02:19 PM

Quote:
I'm certain that an adult is "superior" or more "intelligent" then a child.


That only applies if the person in question is doing a large effort into thinking properly. Once something goes on routine, or somebody just wants something done all the logic goes straight out of the window.
Now... teachers in really small villages doesn't have a excuse, because they are rarely exposed to enough "silly idiotic kids" for the initial reaction.
Somebody who manages one or several larges classes will run into kids that get them tired, roughly each day. When they finally get worn out(i give em a week), they lose their rationality.
Add on "happy sue culture" and "parents have the full right to flame teachers" and "bad teachers get teaching jobs" and you sure have set a nice culture for a "sane and good learning environment"[yes, the last quotations contains sarcasm].
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
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Free Thinker
posted September 19, 2012 04:36 AM

Should public schools (or the federal government) be allowed to control how much kids eat at school? Is the government dictation limiting each kid to 850 calories for lunch logical? Different people have different caloric needs based on their metabolism and activity. As pointed out in the below article, athletes need more calories than couch sitters and the calorie limitation could thereby be damaging the health, academic, and athletic performance of active healthy kids.

In my opinion the federal government (and public school administration) should butt out and let the child and parents determine what the child eats. The "good intentions" of the bureaucrats are causing problems, not solving them.

Clicky

Quote:

With new federal guidelines dictating what is served at school cafeterias during lunch time, school districts all over the country have reworked their menus to accommodate the new rules.  The changes include serving more whole grains, daily doses of fruits and vegetables, less sugar and salt, and only low- or non-fat milk.

For the first time, school lunches must have age-aligned calorie maximums, capping the amount of calories high school students eat to around 850 calories.  The new restrictions all come from the updated Dietary Guidelines for Americans from the U.S. Department of Agriculture and are funded by the Healthy, Hunger-Free Kids Act of 2010 – legislation promoted by Michelle Obama.

While the changes may seem like a step in a healthier direction, not all students are finding them so tasty.  On Monday, about 70 percent of the 830 students at Mukwonago High School in Wisconsin who typically buy their lunch boycotted the school’s cafeteria, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported.  The high schoolers were joined by middle schoolers in the district, reducing the number of lunches sold by half.

According to the Journal Sentinel, the Mukwonago School District is not alone, as many other schools nationwide are also reporting students frustrated with the new rules.

One such student from Mukwonago High, Nick Blohm, said the healthier food is not so much the problem as it is portion size.  A 6-foot-3-inch, 210-pound linebacker, Blohm said he burns around 3,000 calories during three hours of football practice and weight training.  He’s also the class president, and he’s taking various Advanced Placement classes.  But the new caps, he said, are making it harder to perform both physically and academically.

"A lot of us are starting to get hungry even before the practice begins," Blohm told the Journal Sentinel. "Our metabolisms are all sped up."



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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted September 19, 2012 06:56 AM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 07:02, 19 Sep 2012.

Quote:
Different people have different caloric needs based on their metabolism and activity


Very true, we each have different absorption rates too, like one child could eat like a horse, and nothing would really happen, while another might eat a 'moderate portion' and he'd be eating too much. So it's not just a matter of whether you exercise or not, but your own personal absorption rate.

Which is a great irony, I think, 'cause the more healthy you are, the more liable you are to gain weight, and be a lightweight, since you absorb far more efficiently. Though in modern society, that's a con.

I agree, the Government have no right to dictate the amount that your child should eat, just on the grounds of common sense I'd agree, but my decision is also on the grounds of principle, how much power they try to unskillfully/falsely exert over your kids.
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 19, 2012 08:46 AM

Ah, americans.
Pencils are more dangerous than cutlery anyway.

So why is kissing banned anyway?
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted September 19, 2012 09:49 AM

Cause the head-teacher/principal is jelly.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted September 19, 2012 03:55 PM

Don't politicans have actual issues to solve... or?
3500kJ per standard meal makes sense, however... restriction on just having 1 meal? Or just 1 meal size? Really?
Then again, its a Sport School. Its a bit more obvious they are the first to complain.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted September 19, 2012 08:34 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 20:35, 19 Sep 2012.

How much control should public schools have over student behavior?

Hmm, they should probably implant some chips onto their brains and mind control them.
Believe me, mindcontrol in schools would produce excellent students, they would not even need to eat.

Other than that, I agree with the most people here. A hug should not be considered something to be punished eventhough its a provocative move by students who want to show a "Sign" of rebellion or power.


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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted October 04, 2012 12:18 AM

90% of Obama's mandated fruits and vegetables in school lunches are going in the trash according to one school district. Once again the good intentions of liberals in controlling the lives of other people is resulting in nothing but destruction.

School May Install Trash-Cams To Spy on Kids Tossing Veggies

Quote:

A Florida school district is considering a plan to install surveillance cameras on cafeteria trash cans to monitor what kids are throwing away – after they discovered that students were tossing out their federally-mandated fruit and vegetables.

The Lake County School Board said more than $75,000 worth of vegetables have been thrown in the garbage. The veggies and fresh fruit are party of the Obama administration’s policy to force schools to provide healthy produce in lunch rooms.

“It’s fairly specific recipe of what they would like us to serve,” Lake County School Board member Tod Howard told Fox News. “Unfortunately, much of it has to do with fresh fruit and vegetables and it seems to be going into the trash. And that’s not okay.”

So Howard suggested the district attach security cameras to the trash cans to monitor exactly what is being thrown away.

“It will also give us documentation so that we can go back to the federal government and say here’s what we are finding,” he said. “We do know there’s an issue.”

School districts across the nation are furious with the Obama administration’s orders. Some students have staged strikes while others have launched petition drives urging the federal government to change their policy.

But Lake County is believed to be the first to actually videotape kids tossing their veggies – and that has some parents upset.

“So we’re going to spend how many more thousands of dollars to put cameras on trash cans to document the thousands of dollars in food the kids are throwing away,” one parent wrote on ClickOrlando.com “This is a no brainer, kids are not going to eat the stuff served at school. Has anyone really looked at these lunch trays?”

“Why not just remove the kids from their parent’s home at 3 – 5 years-old and put them in mass dormitories where their entire lives can be monitored and properly controlled so that they become properly modeled citizens and serve as they are needed by our enlightened leaders,” another reader wrote.

......

He said the cameras were meant to give the school district evidence they need to push back against the federal guidelines.

“If we just can’t get kids to eat broccoli and 90 percent of it is going in the trash – that’s a waste of taxpayer dollars – and the federal government needs to look at their mandate,” he said. “We have no choice in the matter. This is just a tool to help us document he issue.”

No decisions have been made on the cameras – yet.


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