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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: An internal conflict in two of the new features of Heroes 6?
Thread: An internal conflict in two of the new features of Heroes 6? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted November 15, 2011 11:11 AM

No, that's not what I mean. Why would I have Wood, Ore and Gold in abundance, but have a screaming deficiency in Crystal - and not just once, but all the time? I would prefer to have them equally scarce so each is valuable in its own right. As soon as you get some in abundance so that you trade off lots for another through the market, there's something wrong, in my opinion.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted November 15, 2011 11:35 AM

Bacuse that what makes that resource RARE. If I have enought of all resources none of them would be rare, they would just have a different rate of production. If I had shortag of all resources, none of them would be Rare, it would be just a general shortage of resources.

The reason why you need more and more Rare resources in the later game is, that you need them every week, due to the Champion. Wood and Ore are no more needed after all si builted (except conversion) soo they biggan to stack up. So why not use these "unusable" resources to gain that one, that is usefull and scars. The market palce prices are not that bad in Heroes VI so this makes this option intersting.

I usualy have a shortage of at least one or more resources. If it is gold, Gems, wood or ore. So I have to plan to wait for X turns, Kill a stack of neutrals or use the Market place. And this is a well designed feature of Heroes VI.

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avalon00x
avalon00x


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
posted November 15, 2011 11:47 AM

Synergy is only secondairy tho. The main advantage of the new tier system is that units will always be usefull instead of certain units only being usefull early game and others dominating late game.

i dont like the whole idea of making defensive units use tear cystals and others blood.

If a 5th resource has to be added i would say make them convertable mines.
so that people will still fight over the same mines. but
inferno would use suphur and Sanctuary gems. This way there is still diversity but everyone has to fight over the same mine. but it also brings back the old resources like mercury gems sulphur.

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odium
odium


Known Hero
posted November 15, 2011 11:51 AM

Can anyone provide me with a reason, from a designer's perspective, what multiple resources system can achieve and a single resource system cannot achieve? Until someone enlightens me, the only difference I see is that multiple resources create, to some extent, the impression of less monotony.

Other discussions like why are crystals so rare compared to the other resources is actually not a problem of the system itself but the choice of the mapmaker. Being tagged as the "rare" resource, is somewhat normal that mapmakers decided to make it less available than others. Still, it is perfectly possible to create a map with each town having a dozen of crystal mines and none of the others, hence wood and ore will be more valuable for that particular map.  


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forest001
forest001


Known Hero
posted November 15, 2011 12:00 PM
Edited by forest001 at 12:01, 15 Nov 2011.

@avalon00x but what's the point in this? sounds like bringing resources for the sake of it...

i think resource system in h6 is good as it is, you need to manage and prioritize things or you will run out of crystal, and it can really hurt you if your mine gets plundered because crystals are scarce for a long time

adding another resource won't make it better as it will take edge off from the other, so you either have no new resource at all (no mine etc) or you do and they are less important because you need less of them than you need crystal now.

now there is really strong incentive to fight for a crystal mine as this speeds up your development quite significantly.  

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted November 15, 2011 12:46 PM

Quote:
Can anyone provide me with a reason, from a designer's perspective, what multiple resources system can achieve and a single resource system cannot achieve? Until someone enlightens me, the only difference I see is that multiple resources create, to some extent, the impression of less monotony.

It's also about how you want to motivate choice and strategy, and about variation between the games.

With multiple ressources, you have more options to build according to a scheem that uses one ressource and saves another. For instance, if you need a lot of Crystal for your level Champion building, you can build some Core/Elite buildings that don't use Crystal but use, say, Gems. In that way, you can save up on Crystal and still do something. Now you just have to wait and do nothing if you want to save up on Crystal, because all buildings consume Crystal. It's necessarily that one is better than the other - some will argue that the new system is more tactical because you have to choose one building over another, which makes it more valuable, which is arguably true. Others will like the management aspect of the old system.

Furthermore, with the old system, you could adapt to the situation. You got a lot of Crystal from start? You build the Champion building quickly. You started in an area low on Crystal, or perhaps some particularly nasty neutral was placed on the Crystal mine (think H5 Arcane Archers)? You went for the Gems instead, and build the Elite that used that on instead. Again, there are advantages with both systems: Some will like the fact that you can adapt to the situation, adding variation to the game (you don't *have* to take the Crystal mine). Others will find it boring and a slag in strategy that you can just skip a mine if you don't like the creeps that are guarding it.

As always I guess it's a point in finding the balance between the extremes. The system with 4 rare ressources goes way back, and while I loved it, arguably less could do. On the other hand, cutting it all the way down to 1 seems too radical for me. It makes the game very monotonous, and all the buildings compete for the same ressource, which for me is not a good thing. It may make the game more competitive, I think it adds a lot of do-nothing time. Like I said above, the middle ground would be 2 rare ressources, which would both act as a compromise, which would fit very well (along with the Common ressources) with their new tier system, and which would have a nice dual coupling to the Tears/Blood system.
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odium
odium


Known Hero
posted November 15, 2011 02:12 PM
Edited by odium at 14:18, 15 Nov 2011.

Well what I wanted to point is the fact that restrictions between what should you invest your resources in (should I do the griffins or the champions?) is not dependent on the number of resources at all. People that say that in older version you were able to implement "fancy" restrictions are wrong. In the extreme case of having only one resource you could achieve the same restrictions with well thought costs. Of course, I'm not an advocate for a 1 resource system, it was just a way of emphasizing the fact that the number of resources should be taken into discussion only when analyzing weather or not the game feels monotonous.

edit: all the cases you mentioned alci can be implemented in the extreme case of having one resouces.

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lucky_dwarf
lucky_dwarf


Promising
Supreme Hero
Visiting
posted November 15, 2011 02:21 PM

I'm pretty sure that the whole point of having limited resources was to force players to chose units to build in favor of others.

Now that I think about it, it adds a lot of possibilities for what players can do.

As for Stronghold not having a synchronizing core selection:

I think that without a healer unit, creeping can be very devastating to your forces, and that's why I would always pack reinforcements and regeneration with me.

I also like the idea of having crystal tears and blood, because it is still a desirable resource. I'm not sure if this would allow players to rush up the unit tree they wanted to get too fast but other than that i would say its a good idea.
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whiterider
whiterider


Known Hero
death walks with me
posted November 15, 2011 02:39 PM

If I was Ubihole and my plans about H6 were not hitting the down line in termes of investment I would use the following tier system:

FOUR Levels, not three, All levels/tiers up to third have 3 creatures choice and you can take 2 of each level to grow in your towns:
All creatures divided in few categories (infantry, cavalry, archers; specialists, flying, magical (beasts like); spell casters)

Here is one example of how Haven could look:
Level 1: Royal Swordsman (sword and shield) Pretorian like infantry
Level 1: Royal Archer
Level 1: Halberdier (anti-cavalry unit)

Level 2: Acolyte (Priest like spell caster with healing spells)
Level 2: Silver Knight (lady knight on pegasus), flying or Blazing Glory like creature
Level 2: Whitchhunter (specialist, anti-spellcaster)

Level 3: Champion (cavalry) - sun crusader like creature
Level 3: Paladin (specialist, mixture between infantry and limited spell caster)
Level 3: Griffon

Level 4: Angel of Light
two possible upgrades
Level 4* Archangel of Mercy (in mythology: AA Raphael/Gabriel style)
Level 4* Archangel of Judgment (in mythology: AA Michael/Chamuel style)

The resource system could be remade with 3 common resources, 2 of them significant for each faction: ore, wood, metal
and 2 rare resources: one of them closer to magic, the other closer to might - like moonshard and dragon crystal.

3 Levels only in the game is boring, in the "new" system you have 7 creatures at the end but for every tier you are choosing and you can create diverse strategies based on your hero - this will help the synergy between the heroes and the units as well. As for the resources - some races could have NO access to some resource - i.e. elves can flag a metal mine but they will receive no resources from it - because they do not store or use metal, but they can have increased wood production. Humans can have access to all three resources but on average level etc. So this is another way to deal with resources.

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avalon00x
avalon00x


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
posted November 15, 2011 02:48 PM
Edited by avalon00x at 14:52, 15 Nov 2011.

Quote:
If I was Ubihole and my plans about H6 were not hitting the down line in termes of investment I would use the following tier system:

FOUR Levels, not three, All levels/tiers up to third have 3 creatures choice and you can take 2 of each level to grow in your towns:



hmm i would disagree with 4 tiers the chances are pretty big that lower tiers become useless late game again. Nether do i think anti cavelary units are a great idea seeing as a tier 1 anti cavalry unit
would counter cavalry( wich is tier 3 in your tier list) would not make sense adding to this that not all factions have access to cavelary.
adding to that that the choice system was used in homm4. wich i think was one of the things peopel disliked about the game in general

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted November 15, 2011 04:19 PM
Edited by Maurice at 16:20, 15 Nov 2011.

I don't really like the 4-tier system either, especially if it forces you to make choices on what to build in your towns. You'd get 10 faction creatures, but only room for 7 on your Heroes, unless they would be allowed to carry more different ones. It brings back rather horrid memories of Heroes4, which essentially featured this as well. And what if you favor one type, but the AI has built another in his castles? Will you be able to convert buildings, or are you stuck with the ones already built, just like in HoMM4?

A second rare resource - as suggested earlier in the topic, introduce Blood Crystals and Tear Crystals, as it also matches the theme - would remedy some of the rather stale options you have now, as a player, when deciding what to build.

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whiterider
whiterider


Known Hero
death walks with me
posted November 15, 2011 04:41 PM

Well, ok, I love Heroes 4 and actually if one level of units becomes obsolite in later game or not depends on its numbers like attack/defense/grow etc, not on the tier itself.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted November 15, 2011 06:50 PM

Quote:
edit: all the cases you mentioned alci can be implemented in the extreme case of having one resouces.
Really? Please enlighten me. As it is now, it seems to me like the only button the have to adjust (that really matters, anyway) is whether a building costs more or less Crystal.
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odium
odium


Known Hero
posted November 15, 2011 08:45 PM
Edited by odium at 20:46, 15 Nov 2011.

You have to start from a design which should be faction specific. Which can be something like in normal resources map a player should not be able to build elite in first week or you cannot have all 3 elites in the same week or champion should only be possible starting from week 3. Then, from changing the cost of the buildings and the daily income you would achieve the said goal(s).


Quote:

Furthermore, with the old system, you could adapt to the situation. You got a lot of Crystal from start? You build the Champion building quickly. You started in an area low on Crystal, or perhaps some particularly nasty neutral was placed on the Crystal mine (think H5 Arcane Archers)? You went for the Gems instead, and build the Elite that used that on instead.  



This proposition translates in the following. Let's say that before you had mines for every rare resource (mercury, sulfur, gems and crystals)  and the crystal mine was blocked. Now you should have 2 crystal mines among which one is blocked. The fact that you don't have the amount of crystals to build a champion (let say it costs 10 crystals)  does not mean that you won't be able to get the amount for building an elite structure for example (let say it costs 3-4 crystals) or a core structure (which could cost 1 crystal). Essentially you have to adapt to the situation in the same way.


Quote:
With multiple ressources, you have more options to build according to a scheem that uses one ressource and saves another. For instance, if you need a lot of Crystal for your level Champion building, you can build some Core/Elite buildings that don't use Crystal but use, say, Gems. In that way, you can save up on Crystal and still do something. Now you just have to wait and do nothing if you want to save up on Crystal, because all buildings consume Crystal.



This problem is solved by carefully choosing the cost of buildings and the amount of crystals your receive daily on normal maps. In the example above with cores structure that cost 1 crystal, elite structures that cost 3-4 crystals and champion structures that cost 10 or higher with a daily income of 2 crystals would feel to a certain extent (It's an example on top of my had did not analyze it thoroughly) very similar to the way H6 plays right now.

All in all, I don't say that I want only a resource but in reality adding more resources does not bring more options. It brings redundancy which in turn is associated with being less monotonous.




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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted November 15, 2011 08:58 PM

Maybe there's a subjective element, but I don't think the two situations are the same at all. If there's only crystal, whenever you empty your ressource of crystal, you have nothing to do but wait. I think having only crystal makes you particularly vulnerable, because if you have more difficulty getting crystal than your opponent, you have no other ressources to rely on. Yes, you can prevent the latter by having multiple crystal mines for each player, but afaik that's not how game is balanced - it seems default balance means one ore pit, lumbermill and crystal mine per town.
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odium
odium


Known Hero
posted November 15, 2011 09:03 PM
Edited by odium at 21:10, 15 Nov 2011.

Or have the mine bring you some certain amount of crystal per day (let's start with 2) and have some buildings that cost only 1. In this way you could build daily and also stack up some crystal for next day. Real life is a good example of a system with a single material resource: money.

edit: BTW the examples above should not be taken as "how I envision the game should be" but only as an example of how you can achieve many things in the extreme case of having only 1 resource in the game.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted November 15, 2011 09:47 PM

Yes, so if you have some buildings cost no rare ressource - or effectively no rare ressource - they don't cause these problems. But what you suggest is effectively a HUGE increase in availability of Crystal - having Champion dwelling cost only 10 crystal and having mine give you 2 per day is vastly different from how it is actually in game, and would completely remove any "rareness" of this ressource.
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Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted November 15, 2011 10:19 PM
Edited by Aosaw at 22:20, 15 Nov 2011.

My counter-proposal:

Sulfur:  This resource is used to create powerful offensive units; from the explosive ballista to the terrifying pit lords, Sulfur is the tool of the Destroyer.  Offensive creature dwellings require Sulfur; Elite offensive creatures cost an additional 1 sulfur per creature.

Mercury:  This mysterious liquid creates magical effects that augment a hero's units; from the benevolent Vestal to the wrathful Fate Weaver, Mercury is the tool of the Specialist.  Support/Special creature dwellings require Mercury; Elite Support/Special creatures cost an additional 1 mercury per creature.

Gems/Crystal:  This valuable material is traded for enhanced protective effects, used to protect a hero's defensive units; from the hardy Sentinel to the stalwart Golem, Gems/Crystals are the tool of the Protector.  Defensive creature dwellings require Gems/Crystal; Elite Defensive creatures cost an additional 1 gems/crystal per creature.

All mines, regardless of the resource, grant 2 resources per day.  Champion units cost one of each rare resource per creature.

So in a given week, assuming you have one of each mine, you'll have enough resources for 14 of each Elite creature on the first day of the week - or eleven of each Elite, and three Champion units.  If you want more than that, you can capture additional mines, or trade wood and ore at the marketplace.

The reason they reduced the number of resources was because some factions used one resource, while others used another - so when it came to capturing mines, which mine you went for depended entirely on what faction you were playing.

The problem was a very real one, but the solution they found was a simplistic version of what I think would have been a better integration of resources.  By making Elite creatures cost a rare resource in addition to gold, you maintain the importance of that rare resource throughout the late game, and you also remove the internal competition between different creatures of the same tier.

It's probably too late to incorporate this change in Heroes VI, unless they completely revamped the whole system, which would require rebuilding a lot of the maps and all of the town building strategies; but it would have been a more intuitive solution that, rather than taking away features that have become an iconic part of the series, would make those features more interesting and valuable.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted November 16, 2011 08:33 AM

@Aosaw
You played Heroes Kingdoms to much didn't you?

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Karanshade
Karanshade


Adventuring Hero
posted November 16, 2011 09:29 AM

Quote:
It seems to me that two of the new features or changes made to Heroes 6 are at conflict with each other. These are the new tier system and the new (reduced) ressource system:

1) The new tier system with 3 core units and 3 elite units supposedly should add a larger amount of synergy between the three units of the same tier, so that they act as a cohesive unit, supporting each other and covering the other units' weaknesses. On paper a great idea.

2) The ressource system was reduced to only one rare ressource. This was done in order to increase competition between players, as all players now need the same ressources, as well as the strategical element for the player, because he'll now have to consider how to use his ressources. Also an idea that makes sense if you like a competitive game.


Now the problem is that these two things seem to hold an inherant conflict. In order to experience the synergy between the units of the same tier, you need to have all of them in play. However, the stress on Crystal demand for all the different buildings means that it will be very hard to find ressources to build all three buildings, particularly on the elite level. This disrupts the synergy between the creatures, as you will rarely and only in late game be able to afford having all three units, hence experiencing the intended synergy.




that's because ur analysis is wrong imo.The three core creatures create the basic synergy , the elites are the options to add to the core and not another core itself. If u see it like this u understand the expensive price of elite buildings.

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