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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 30 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 (13) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 ]
Quantomas
Quantomas


Promising
Known Hero
AI Wizard
posted December 26, 2011 02:46 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 15:03, 26 Dec 2011.

Quote:
600 concurrent steam user + let's say 600 other non-steam user (retail) is less than Heroes 3 on gameranger which is still quite popular.



This is indeed a low and alarming number.

One benefit of the Conflux (for Ubisoft) is to know exactly how many people play how long. Do you VIPs have any reliable numbers on that? Or does someone else has access to these numbers on the server?

Quote:
I enjoy my time much more with Disciple 2 gold (FOR 5 BUCK ON STEAM) or Aow 2: Shadow Magic (5 BUCKS AGAIN ON STEAM) than with a 50 € rigged Heroes game.



Indeed worthy games. AoW 2's game design has some great ideas that also will influence our Eternal Essence.

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AlexSpl
AlexSpl


Promising
Famous Hero
posted December 26, 2011 03:59 PM

Quote:
Don't you get heroism for free at start regardless? Due to heroism Being Irina's specialty.


Oh, thanks. Didn't even think about this.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted December 26, 2011 07:13 PM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 22:03, 26 Dec 2011.

Ubisoft realy makes it hard to be optimistic about this game.. is this some sort of testrun how much they can kick their customers around?

It is the 26th december. its 8 PM in central Europe and more the 3 hours the Online part of the game is Down. How? Just How? No notes anywhere not a line on facebook or the oficial pages and only Rage and words of calming on the Forums. No oficial stand.

And I am just a Fan who had already finished the game. Eventhou Offline due to the fact that 2 people can not use one key. I got my personal key for Christmas and I am replaying the game.
What about all the people that got the game for the first time. It's the christmas holyday for chaos sakes.
The game does not even let them play offline without atleast logging in once.

They have 2 days of familly stress and travels in many cases. And just want to sit down and relax.
This is not a problem of the game, this is a problem of Ubisoft and it's PR. And they just made more enemies then with the 2 month waiting time for patch 1,2 IMHO

Edit
Just for the record teh game starrted working after 3 hours whitout any word from the devs. And that is the thing that I dislike the most
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I'm just a Mirror of your
self.

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we
store, we teach. We are
many,
and you can be one of us.

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X-ecutionner
X-ecutionner


Known Hero
posted December 26, 2011 07:24 PM
Edited by x-ecutionner at 19:25, 26 Dec 2011.

Quote:
Quote:
600 concurrent steam user + let's say 600 other non-steam user (retail) is less than Heroes 3 on gameranger which is still quite popular.



This is indeed a low and alarming number.

One benefit of the Conflux (for Ubisoft) is to know exactly how many people play how long. Do you VIPs have any reliable numbers on that? Or does someone else has access to these numbers on the server?


Indeed worthy games. AoW 2's game design has some great ideas that also will influence our Eternal Essence.


The true and mighty H5 modder Quantomas quotes me ? Joke

Well Steam tracks the stats down from the 100 most popular games. Heroes 6 is still in, but it says 600 concurrent users on steam. I remember 1 month ago it was 1000-1100. Half the Steam players stopped
playing, which is alarming indeed.


About Aow & Disciple 2 : they are very underrated. Most of the hype for turn-based has always been on Total War & Civilization anyway.
But these two games are interesting, tho very complex (as much as H3)

What may have killed these two gems is : bad marketing (indie dev), new complex rules (heroes "clone" that yet plays very differently), and niche genre (turn based is the most complex genre, literally).

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Promising
Known Hero
AI Wizard
posted December 26, 2011 09:10 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 21:13, 26 Dec 2011.

The AoW developer is still in business, so we might see more of this one day. They had a lot of nice ideas, like the movable towns, the underground tunnels to dig through, and the 3D battle environments. We can definitely do more these days if these concepts would be developed in full.

Disciples 2 wasn't really all that interesting regarding story or battles, but it had well honed adventure map mechanics that kept you going. What happened with Disciples 3 was that the IP got shifted around to different developers who then just broke the thing.

For Heroes it was a great thing that 3DO developed and refined the formula from I to III. The problems we are seeing right now is at least partly due that V and VI were produced by different developers. While Nival had TBS experience (Etherlords) they lacked understanding of the adventure map TBS realm. I often thought when the original Etherlords came out and were some sort of surprise hit from then unknown eastern European developers, if they had similar stellar adventure map game mechanics they could have produced a major competitor to Heroes. Apparently it is very difficult for developers to change their mindset.

Black Hole is essentially a RTS developer and that's obvious in their designs and also in their software development and bug tracking process. Actually, in a RTS they would have got away with the present bugs because these would just be temporary glitches. But in a TBS that's not going to work. Every time I communicated with them, directly or indirectly, I got the impression they just don't understand the scope a TBS AI has. The effort required completely dwarves what is required of a RTS AI, it has real-time yes, but this can be handled relatively straightforward.

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X-ecutionner
X-ecutionner


Known Hero
posted December 26, 2011 09:46 PM
Edited by x-ecutionner at 21:47, 26 Dec 2011.

Quote:
The AoW developer is still in business, so we might see more of this one day. They had a lot of nice ideas, like the movable towns, the underground tunnels to dig through, and the 3D battle environments. We can definitely do more these days if these concepts would be developed in full.

Disciples 2 wasn't really all that interesting regarding story or battles, but it had well honed adventure map mechanics that kept you going. What happened with Disciples 3 was that the IP got shifted around to different developers who then just broke the thing.

For Heroes it was a great thing that 3DO developed
Black Hole is essentially a RTS developer .


Some small rectifications :
New World Computing (Jon van Caneghem & his company) developed Heroes franchise till 4th one, and 3do Published from 3rd till 4th one.

Black Hole can't be said to be an RTS developer when they never developed anything outstanding: An indie dev can tomorrow start an RTS and do a much much better work in one year than the 9 years experience Black Hole got (yes I hate this company).

About Disciple : Disciple 2 is a very good game. The way they handled the 3rd one in an absolute POS is seriously disappointing.

About AoW devs : They may still be in business, but I don't think they get more than average budget to develop anymore. I may be wrong but ... I'm not sure they did alot of profit out of their games.

PS: Why didn't Ubi hire you to develop heroes 6 AI ? Tell me why ? ...

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Promising
Known Hero
AI Wizard
posted December 26, 2011 10:30 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 23:33, 26 Dec 2011.

You are right, it was NWC, I sometimes forget that those two are not synonymous. I intentionally discounted IV because the people who developed the original AI from I to III had either left the team or been sidelined.

Quote:
PS: Why didn't Ubi hire you to develop heroes 6 AI ? Tell me why ? ...

When the producer changed, a big mistake IMHO because Fabrice had gained the experience from H5 and Erwan could have been brought on as an art director to create a strong team, everything changed. I personally think to hire a B RTS developer to do the world's most complex TBS was a big mistake. The gap between the genres is probably not as big as to have the developer of a dance game do a RTS, but still these are different worlds.

There were many chances for the producer of H6 to get me on board but apparently they just chose the stance that their contractor will do it. I always felt that this is totally foolhardy to have H6 developed by an unproven developer (their previous titles were at best B) and not having a reasonable control of the production process. Normally you need a good producer, an excellent lead programmer and for a TBS of this complexity a world class AI programmer. The worst thing for me is really to see that my professional assessment of the situation has been proven entirely correct. It's like a bizarre joke, to have been right and see a completely undesirable result for all come to pass.

The management even appears to get away with this. Interestingly most gaming sites charged junior reviewers who handed out a 8/10 (imagine at GameSpot Deus Ex and Minecraft got 8.5 in comparison to 8.0 for H6). Even the bugs get discounted, so the management can blame fully the DRM for low sales. Here is the real joke, even the full force of the market response doesn't lead Ubisoft to realize what truly is wrong.

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X-ecutionner
X-ecutionner


Known Hero
posted December 27, 2011 01:15 AM

+1000 with you.

Such true facts, such sadness...

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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted December 27, 2011 01:16 AM

I might be wrong but i think Fabrice->Erwan happened even before TotE, so there was no new producer change for H6. I agree on Black Hole though, it is evident that they are severely undermanned and/or under experienced for this type of game.

Disciples 2 was never really interesting to me. I played Disciples 1, and D2 just looked like more of the same to me. Repeat the grind every level with changed graphic style (I actually preffered cartoony D1 to gothic D2). That series, while fun, was never even close to Heroes in my book.
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DSveno
DSveno

Tavern Dweller
posted December 27, 2011 02:19 AM

I like Disciples 2, mostly because it's different from Heroes and the arts. I just wish Disciples 3 wasn't trying to be a Heroes clone with worse graphic.

Age of Wonder is also one of my favorite TBS, but that is an old story. Probably will try to pick it up again if I have a chance.

I'm still optimism about Heroes VI, as I don't hate the thing they are trying. With some twisting here and there, it could become a whole lot better than it current state, but let not go there again. I just think people that thought H6 is beyond salvation should just drop it and move on instead of repeating the same subject over and over.




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Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted December 27, 2011 04:56 AM
Edited by Nocturnal at 02:02, 28 Dec 2011.

I also have been pretty optimistic with this game. But slowly, my hopes are dying.

First of all, let us ignore the bugs. Yeah, they are game breakers and numerous and whatnot. But imagine this game if it didn't have any bugs, none at all. Would the community love this game then?

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't. I think I have written in every possible place that H5-ToE is my favourite. Because all the factions and all the units are unique, they are so different than each other. The skill tree and the skills in it, the sub-skills, the requirements for each, their effects and all, are very interesting.

Now I look at this game. Let me begin with saying that I support most of the changes they made. Resource reduction makes the game more challenging as everyone needs the same resource and fight for it. Area of Control made all those irritating "hero with 1 unit of tier 1 creature has captured your mine" thing disappear. Your units can be hired from any town you own; goodbye to waiting for caravans to reach you for turns and praying for them not to get attacked. Blood and Tears is genius. Dynasty Weapons which gain experience with you and unlocks new abilities, the whole Dynasty thing, Bestiary, Achievements, Traits, all of them are great.

But... True, they have put very good new things, but they have messed up the good old things. Heroes is a game that gives a strange feel of serenity to me. I enjoyed watching my townscreens, go to some distant spot on the adventure map, zoom in, and look around, go to the ground level, etc. Battles were exciting and fun. I would think for minutes before every move. I would enjoy the creatures' interactions with each other, their abilities clashing with each other. A level up was a "hoooray!" and I couldn't choose which ones to pick when I draw my ability tree before every hot seat. Seing the effects of the skills I've chosen, altough when they are little, would give me pleasure.

Now, in this game, I'm sick of seeing some lifeless figures located on the grass. I don't even look at the places in the adventure map, cause they are all the same. Every bit of it seems the same, feels the same. The adventure map locations are all give +X stat for the next turn. There aren't places you want to go like Dragon Utopia, Syphinx, Arcane Library, Cartographer, Eye Of the Magis around, Seer Hut, Vault Of the Mages, etc. The graphics can be better in technology, but they are dead-like. The battles are mere burdens. They are so mechanic, so boring. And the skill tree... It is the worst thing for me:

How can some Heroes fan like a skill system that is seperated into 3 and you can choose one from that, one from that, whatever you like. What's the fun in that? There are no hard choices, no restrictions (like you can choose 5 main skills and 5 of their abilities) You can choose some luck thing, then morale, then pathfinding, then defense, then attack, then some magic, whatever you like. It is so not-Heroes-like. And the skills themselves are again mechanic like the whole game. Nearly all of the Might abilities are "add+X to that stat", the whole Paragon tree goes like that. The Realm has only 3 abilities at its base and they are "see further", "build cheaper" "+1 to creature growth". And all might related skills go like that, only there are some old favourites put in the middles.

Then we come to Magic. This is the tree that you feel the stupidity of "choose whatever you like". Imagine in older Heroes games that you could choose Dark, Destructive, Summoning and Light all at the same time and can cast whatever you want. This is it now. You can have "Chain Lightning", "Frenzy", "Poison Cloud", "Circle Of Winter", "Blindness", "Puppet Master" and "Implosion" altogether, all from 7 different Magic Schools and you would only waste 8 Hero points. How can this be fun? Let them all be in seperate ways again and restrict the numbers, or let only Blood heroes have Blood abilities and Tears have Tears or whatever. But right now its a mess they couldn't figure out how to clear and decided on not clearing it but giving it to us just in this messy state.

The creature abilities are very alike and unoriginal. They do some damage and don't get retaliated; most of them are this basically. I can honestly say that with the creatures we, as HC members, have created in our factions, we have done an unbelievably better job, with all their interesting and original abilities.

So , all in all, this game cannot be any good in this state. Unless they make a new skill system, add town screens, fix multiplayer, add sim. turns, fix all the bugs, add many new map locations and map items that would save the map from remaining as the endless untouched big garden it is, add some other skills to creatures, then I think this game will remain hopeless. At least for me.
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True beauty transcends such
simplistic labels such as "good" and
"evil" -Vega

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X-ecutionner
X-ecutionner


Known Hero
posted December 27, 2011 12:49 PM

Quote:
...

So , all in all, this game cannot be any good in this state. Unless they make a new skill system, add town screens, fix multiplayer, add sim. turns, fix all the bugs, add many new map locations and map items that would make save the map from remaining as the endless untouched big garden it is, add some other skills to creatures, then I think this game will remain hopeless. At least for me.


I think everybody that know the HOMM franchise will agree with that.
But the changes you ask = won't happen till Heroes 7. Sadly.

When you think that Steam sales (right now) gets incredible price and that you can buy 10 games at least with 80 € (same price as Heroes 6 collector)... lol.

I will never do the same mistake with Heroes : collector only if the game is worth it, else I won't buy HOMM anymore.

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krs
krs


Famous Hero
posted December 27, 2011 04:49 PM
Edited by krs at 17:00, 27 Dec 2011.

How can you come here and post about alarmingly low player base and hope that heroes 7 will fix that?

"Braking news everyone"... The destiny of heroes 7 lies in the success of 6.

To me it seems like there will be no heroes 7, or if it will be it will not have the resources to do any better than H6.

This installment was their one and only chance to put new life into the series and they have time until the next MAJOR patch to spark some life into it.

Bad management allover the place . Alienate a solid and willing to buy pool of players in the hope to get new faces on. While it sounds good on paper, small but important details transformed it into an ugly mess.

My suggestion:

- Fix you're BUGS. All of them!
- Spark some life into the map and creatures. They are boring!
- Rethink the skill tree! In the likes of heroes 5 but less complex. What we have now is garbage.
- Multi-player, multi-player, multi-player! No simultaneous turns is a big No-No.
- Implement the town screens everyone is screaming about



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Vindicator
Vindicator


Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
posted December 27, 2011 05:03 PM

Quote:
Rethink the skill tree! In the likes of heroes 5 but less complex.


This is the only thing I disagree with you on. Personally, I think it should be like homm5 but less random. Still have a factor of chance, but not to the scale of the previous one.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted December 27, 2011 05:20 PM

They should focus (and focus HARD) on delivering the things which the vast majority of the people agree about - town screens, sim-turns and custom maps available for MP. If we get these in the next 2 to 3 months at most, there's some hope for redemption. Otherwise the game will just die and no "calm down everybody, you are making a scene" eyewash which is pretty much their only communication policy so far will save it. That means no money from expansions, Ubisoft, get scared and do something right for a change!

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Promising
Known Hero
AI Wizard
posted December 27, 2011 06:03 PM bonus applied by alcibiades on 27 Dec 2011.
Edited by Quantomas at 18:03, 27 Dec 2011.

Quote:
I might be wrong but i think Fabrice->Erwan happened even before TotE, so there was no new producer change for H6.

Fabrice had the helm until summer 2008, that's a bit more than half a year past the release of TotE. We were technically just getting ready to release the 3.2 patch with the upgraded AI. Fabrice mentioned this in his last official post on the Ubisoft board, introducing Erwan and saying that the patching process is not at its end and that an important upgrade will follow.

Erwan on the other hand completely ignored what we had. Technically, all it required was an Ok and to set the patching process in motion. To his defense it can be said, that things might have been a bit more complicated from his point of view, because Ubisoft was about to contract Black Hole instead of Nival. But by no means should that have been an obstacle that couldn't have been overcome. What we had back then was practically the same AI that was released at the beginning of this year, and we could have merged it with the 3.1 sources proper and would have had a far superior patch without the omissions from 3.1. If we could have had this release in 2008 we would have made this game to fly to WOG heights!

You can imagine that the producer for the next iteration of a franchise wouldn't want to put work into making the work of his predecessor shine, because this would raise the bar for his own work and diminish his success. But this is exactly the wrong way of thinking, because the overall success of the franchise reflects on each iteration. Yes, it would have raised the bar, but that's good, and even in the case H6 would have ended up in the same shape as it is in now, the improvements in its predecessor would have inspired confidence. It is the same as with this wretched argument that Heroes V had as many bugs as H6. This convinces nobody and sounds like a lame excuse for foot dragging that diminishes the franchise. You have to say that this state is unacceptable and major bugs have to be fixed as soon as possible. Full stop.

In the end the heroes we have to thank are Fabrice and Xhane, who managed to get the Ok from Ubisoft finally, and I think Marzhin also played a role in the approval. It is important to note that a big corporation like Ubisoft might appear enigmatic at first glance, like a black box, but in the end it's individual people who make decisions. There is the problem that big corporations tend to have a large number of careerist types who often make decisions that they think will benefit their position instead of looking beyond personal goals. In this environment you will find more often than not different opinions, some people will be supportive of a goal while others oppose it.

I don't think Heroes VI is beyond salvaging yet. But not with the current modus operandi. One thing, our VIPs failed badly, but I don't blame them because they were under the impression that they aided a benign development process for a great game, and most are young and don't have decades of professional experience to be aware how big corporations and teams interact, in the sense described above. If Heroes VI is meant to have a chance, you have to change, here is how. First you have to be aware that for each of your goals you will find more often than not allies at Ubisoft and even at Black Hole. As VIPs you are incredibly connected but you have to make use of this power. Posting suggestions changes hardly anything. What needs doing, you have to learn to communicate directly with individual team members at Black Hole and Ubisoft, and to figure out who is supportive of a goal and who is not. More often than not your allies will be able to tell you who makes the decision for which goal. In the end you will have a lot of individual communication channels and should get a clear picture of the decision making process and who supports what. This is the classic way lobbying works. Once you have the full picture you can query the decision makers for their reasons, and start arguing with the help of your allies and convince individual opponents step by step.

Regarding your goals, you need to be clear and concise. Make a list of the truly important goals like:

- town screens
- multiplayer maps
- AI
- DRM alleviations
...
(this is just an example, I am sure you have a very good idea what is important already)

Do not be afraid of contacting individual team members directly, if they are prepared to talk to private beta testers, VIPs have a higher status. You can limit the lobbying effort to a few select speakers in your group so that your contacts learn to know you. Make your goals and their priority known, and why you have started the lobbying effort. Tell them that this is an exceptional situation, that the fans are departing in droves, and that from the feedback no one will be interested in buying the expansions. Back this up with real figures, e.g. numbers of visitors and posts on the community boards and how many of this are negative, compare this to good times. Ask Ubisoft's officials about statistics from the Conflux servers, how many players play how long, and how often their sessions are interrupted by the DRM, and how many players play the campaigns through, or come back after a given time.

Do not underestimate the power of this type of lobbying effort. Once you are able to trace the decision making process and who is responsible for what, careerist types will fear that this knowledge can reach their superiors if things go wrong and think twice. In the end the power of reason should prevail. If you can't make them listen, tell them that you will abandon their effort, because it is not worth your time.

For me, this is very likely my last effort to help with this installment of Heroes. I will continue to develop and upgrade Heroes V until we finally have a worthy 3.2 patch, for this game to shine as it should have long ago, to honor Fabrice and Xhane. I also made a request to Ubisoft to develop a commercial expansion for Heroes V. I haven't heard back from them in three months, if you VIPs can please make this a part of your lobbying effort. Ubisoft and the Heroes franchise only stand to gain from this, I didn't ask them for money, only for a license.

Beyond that I don't think I owe Ubisoft any more. What we are doing on our own board www.eternal-essence.com is contemplating the future of TBS. You are welcome to join us, although things are a bit slow currently. It will get more interesting later on, with the release of an upgraded combat AI and a new multiplayer tournament mode Right of Conquest. After we make the final 3.2 TotE milestone we will venture forth to break new ground for the TBS realm. This is my main critique of Heroes 6, it does nothing to advance the genre. In a world that moves forward, you only need to look at titles like Skyrim, The Witcher 2, Deus Ex, the recently gone live Star Wars The Old Republic MMO or the upcoming Diablo III and the Secret World, a truly promising TBS game has to break new ground as well for the genre to be more than a niche after Elemental: War of Magic floundered and Civilization V dispersed its big loyal fan base.

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X-ecutionner
X-ecutionner


Known Hero
posted December 27, 2011 06:41 PM

Quote:
Ubisoft, get scared and do something right for a change!


Ubisoft is an epic company and did alot of blockbusters it's just they messed this game up big time.



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Vindicator
Vindicator


Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
posted December 27, 2011 06:50 PM

Wow... That was a quite a post...



Great job with H5, Quantomas, hope you hear back from Ubi.
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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted December 27, 2011 07:14 PM
Edited by Cepheus at 19:16, 27 Dec 2011.

Quote:
As VIPs you are incredibly connected but you have to make use of this power


Preaching to the choir, as there are no longer any active VIP members frequenting Heroes Community aside from myself. I have no way to tell how strongly the brunt of the post is aimed at me, since you know what I was up to and that I couldn't share in your sentiments and opinions much more so than I already do, but I hope you don't mind if I copy and quote them in the private forum.

The fact that Quantomas is practically shunned by Ubisoft says everything for its dysfunctionality in one respect or another, doubly so since he possesses the vision to elevate HoMM as well as the skills. When a person with the rights to one of the best gaming AI processes in modern times falls out of the sky and knocks on your window, tells you he can implement it in a week and asks only pittance or a license in return...
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Promising
Known Hero
AI Wizard
posted December 27, 2011 07:33 PM

As said I don't blame you, and I know of your good intentions. Sharing it on the private forum is a good first step. I don't think Ubisoft or Black Hole get it right on their own, the ball is in your court now.

Ubisoft doesn't employ morons only, there are enough skilled people. Games with a success story like Just Dance 3 prove that. And I am sure you know of good people in the Heroes department too. Make them your allies and try your best with the approach explained. You have power if you will so.

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