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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 30 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 (15) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 ]
feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted December 28, 2011 03:29 PM

Alright, so who is the smart guy who figured the way how not to blame developers for this mess?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 28, 2011 03:47 PM

Quote:


If you have a game that's good within a niche area and (at best) mediocre within the mainstream area, I don't think the best solution is to try to sell it in the mainstream market - it's going to fluke, because this is not the main strengths of the game, and there will be better alternatives out there. Instead, they should have played to the strengths of the game, made it a great TBS game. It may be a niche area, but it could have been dominant within that niche.



Yes, exactly. You might say, that MAKING this game is a game in itself: you need to allocate ressources for best effect.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted December 28, 2011 03:55 PM
Edited by War-overlord at 15:59, 28 Dec 2011.

@ Alcibiades:
You're reading it not exactly how I meant it. There are 2 parts in it that are me.
1: I like campaigns. (Because I like stories. I like to tell stories and I like to be told stories)
2: HoMM's stories have been so-so in 5 & 6, but I still enjoyed them.

What I tried to convey is what I have observed is Ubisoft's solution for the problem that HoMM is a small market. By making it a bigger market for more profit potential. Basically, my obeservation of Ubisoft's approach is that they aim to create a marktet for the  M&M-franchise.
I never tried to claim I have the answer to everything.
Also, one interpretation  of yours is wrong. I said good stories make good word of mouth. I never said good stories made hype.

Also, I disagree that HoMM never had good stories. HoMM 4 had great stories IMHO, the writing in the great walls of text was of a high quality and very enjoyable. Problems with was that if people want to read they would pick up a book.

@JollyJoker:
You are twisting what I said and reading things in my words that are not there.
The so-called points 1 and 2 are there to explain that it was rushed because they went or were going over budget. And would the game not have been rushed it would have been less bad at the least. And in this case less bad = better.
The main concept behind the idea that campaigns are the problem is the idea that the people who worked on the campaigns could have been put to better use fixing the gameplay. Am I correct in this?
If that is so, there is a point, I think, you are missing, which is that the people who do the campaigns, story-writers, map-makers, voice-actors etc. are on the whole not programmers who could have helped out with the problems in the first place. I would agree that a considereable part of the budget is sunk in those people, budget which could have been used to hire more programmers. But this makes it again a budget-problem, which strengthens my conclusion that Heroes 6 was to ambitious a project for it's budget, which resulted in rushing the product.

@feluniozbunio
All I am saying is that the publisher made understandable descisions, which resulted in the product we see today. The whole pointing-the-finger-of-blame is a process which leads to little results other than anger.
____________
"If you naturally have energy, then go and use it and go make some coffee for the people who need it." -Ronald Goedemondt

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted December 28, 2011 04:05 PM

The latest few posts about the money, campaign and stuff can be summarized in "Heroes VI is crap because it could not have been anything else but crap because the market is crap so everything's as it should be and nobody's gulty". Logic can hardly be more violently raped.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted December 28, 2011 04:12 PM
Edited by Cepheus at 16:20, 28 Dec 2011.

I agree totally with the need for more nebulous fantasy, particularly since Ashan hasn't caught on and probably never will. The budget misappropriation is perhaps a direct result of Erwan Le Breton being in charge as a producer. It's just my speculation, but you're probably never going to find a stronger advocate for spending valuable time and money on Ashan and its surrounding fluff than the guy who created it.

There was a point where we were told that something like 9/10 HoMM players exclusively play in campaign mode, based on some Ubi statistics of some kind. Even if it's true, I continue to find that an incredulous reason for splashing out on writers and cutscenes. It's probably part of their effort to build a big franchise out of Might and Magic (remember those old interviews where they spoke about hoping to make a movie trilogy like LotR?), but I find such talk very presumptuous when the foundation of the game is fundamentally a bit of a wreck.

As usual with Ubi, it seems to be a badly imbalanced sense of priorities. With H5 we eventually get an arguably-competent game, but abysmal lore which makes a joke out of their vision for the overarching franchise. In H6 it's more or less the reverse, but even I, Mr. Lore Guy, would much prefer to take a great game and editor with a crap plot (if such a dilemma is inevitable).
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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X-ecutionner
X-ecutionner


Known Hero
posted December 28, 2011 04:30 PM

Quote:

because CAMPAIGNS ARE THE PROBLEM, because in terms of game value campaigns are expensive without actually MAKING the game.


"These" Campaigns weren't expensive... badly narrated story, extra boring& uninteresting story... it sure was on a budget.
Problem is rest was on an even bigger budget. LOL.

Quote:
would much prefer to take a great game and editor with a crap plot (if such a dilemma is inevitable).


This game is bad & editor sucks & with a crap plot. Lol.

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted December 28, 2011 04:38 PM

Quote:
What I tried to convey is what I have observed is Ubisoft's solution for the problem that HoMM is a small market. By making it a bigger market for more profit potential.
I think you are spot on with that, what I posted was just the reason for me finding that a wrong approach to this game.

Quote:
There was a point where we were told that something like 9/10 HoMM players exclusively play in campaign mode, based on some Ubi statistics of some kind. Even if it's true, I continue to find that an incredulous reason for splashing out on writers and cutscenes.
That is a very interesting number. Did they say whether this was with regard to Heroes 6, Heroes 5, or Heroes games in general? I find such a number hard to believe, but who am I to contest it without solid evidence - even if it is true, however, it makes JJ's point about the game coming before the story even more relevant. Why waste out a huge amount of money on story and voice acting if the game is faulty or just plain boring to play?
____________
Heroes 7 - News overview | Heroes 7 - Discussion thread

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 28, 2011 04:41 PM

You people have wrong ideas of how these things work.

I'm not going to bother and explain the obvious again. I'd just like to actually put forth a question that you may answer yourself.

What would you prefer: The way things are now OR
Homm 6 COMPLETELY WITHOUT ANY campaign, mostly bug-free, balanced, 6 factions, a well-designed ability tree, everything working together, with 30 single maps and a simple and user-friendly map editor-
Note, that this is an extreme alternative. It would mean, there might be a campaign add-on, that would simply deliver campaigns for all factions, story, nothing too fancy...

I know what, I would prefer.

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X-ecutionner
X-ecutionner


Known Hero
posted December 28, 2011 04:46 PM

Quote:
You people have wrong ideas of how these things work.

I'm not going to bother and explain the obvious again. I'd just like to actually put forth a question that you may answer yourself.
...
I know what, I would prefer.


Can you be less arrogant than that ?

And yes, everybody would prefer better mechanisms over a dull&narrated campaign.

You play campaign once, You play scenarios & RMG & Custom maps 1000 times. Obviously.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted December 28, 2011 04:53 PM

It was based on H5 and The Settlers, IIRC. It's coming from memory, so I'll have to dig it up tonight to be accurate. There wasn't much elucidation into it, but the first potential flaw that came to my mind, among many others, was the notoriously horrible multiplayer launch of H5. I wonder if so many people simply resorted to SP out of necessity.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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DSveno
DSveno

Tavern Dweller
posted December 28, 2011 04:56 PM

Quote:

This game is bad & editor sucks & with a crap plot. Lol.


I've noticed for several pages, you have nothing constructive to add. All you did is "H6 is crap" over and over. I suggest you stop that, because you ruined all the good discussion from both sides.

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X-ecutionner
X-ecutionner


Known Hero
posted December 28, 2011 04:58 PM

Quote:
Quote:

This game is bad & editor sucks & with a crap plot. Lol.


I've noticed for several pages, you have nothing constructive to add. All you did is "H6 is crap" over and over. I suggest you stop that, because you ruined all the good discussion from both sides.



I learned you the difference between TBS & RTS, this way you will know what Heroes 6 is.

You should at least thank me ! D

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KingImp
KingImp


Famous Hero
posted December 28, 2011 05:06 PM

Quote:
I'd just like to actually put forth a question that you may answer yourself.

What would you prefer: The way things are now OR
Homm 6 COMPLETELY WITHOUT ANY campaign, mostly bug-free, balanced, 6 factions, a well-designed ability tree, everything working together, with 30 single maps and a simple and user-friendly map editor-
Note, that this is an extreme alternative. It would mean, there might be a campaign add-on, that would simply deliver campaigns for all factions, story, nothing too fancy...


That's simple for me. No campaigns and a ton of single/multiplayer maps instead.

I've said before that to this day I have never finished a single campaign in any of the Heroes games because frankly I couldn't care less about the story.
The ONLY reason I am deciding to play the campaign in H6 is to unlock heroes for multiplayer games since the devs were either too stupid and/or lazy to implement this feature.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted December 28, 2011 05:09 PM

So My guestion is.
What takes really the bigest part of the budget whyle making a game.

1: Graphics - Art and model designe
2: Programers
3: Story and background
4: Marketing and PR

These are the 4 major parts I consider to be important

Let me start with Graphics. We know BlackHole has its own engine, but most of the models were made by a 3rd party company (Namely the Pupet works). When asked about the problem, that 2 factio units use the same models as 2 neutrals, Erwan replaid that they wanted to make the most out of the resources they had. He called it "Smart" and from an optimisti point of view, they wanted to give us more units. My logic sees this as a simple equations. It is cheper to program more things that the pay the makers of the Models. But are the models really that expensive? If we look at the map objects we can see so much copying and recycling that it makes me sad. We have basicly 3 types of map objects. Statues, Free castle objects and the other objects. The first two are the worst. All statues ar nothing more then a creature model i gray on a podestal. So we have an angel statue, a gryphon statue, a knight statue, a demon statue, a snake preistess statue and a centaur statue (did I miss any?). And then there are the Castel objects. I think you all know what I am talking about. Expecialy because they still have the art designe of their castle, and thanks to this they look totaly out of place on most maps that are different than the original homeland of the praticular faction. Not only that thay look plastic and out of place, they also destroy the look of the map. Ok they add aprox. 10 new obets on the map, but it is a 180° turn of evolution in the game. In H3 it was mostly about makig map objects available for some factions in their town. Now they take buildings and  use them as map objects. Would it cost that much to at least change their look to something else then parts of your town designe, that came out really bad in the eyes of most players/customers. The rest of the objects is not that bad. but still, Why are there flags, the same looking flags, outside of every building that gives bonuses to Might atributes? Did they feel like we woul forget? Mix them up? Or would not read their tooltip?
I do not actually mind the multiple unit skins. Even the fact that except the two ladies you could count to them the wolves, and half of the bosses. (Michale and Urial lookalike -> NP, Ahriban and Azkaal are overgrown Pitlords and the Breeder queen a Mother breeder -> OK, reuse the Abbysal worm as a Castle structure -> well this one is weird)

The funny part is that the maps themselves look like there has been so much effort giving into them, that it is a Shame that the objects themselves look like if you would put a Lego building on a TT/HO railroad track model.

So now it look like the graphical part is really expensive compared to the thenical part, but it also looks like the graphic have been reused so many times, that I can't belive much money has been given into it. So there are only two options
1: Ubi did not give much resources into this part of the game
2: The 3rd parties are somehow to expensive.

When we talk sbout story and back ground, we can see that a lot of efort was been given into it. The Story is now not a chain of events like in H5, but more a pyramide where the player starts at the top, and finds his way to the bottem. But since so many people here are creativly active, I think most of them would agree that 2-4 people working on this part of the game is to much. 1-2 writters to make the story. 1 person to make the lore stuff, Max 3 peopel on story and background stuff, and this should not be their only source of income, so this should not be en expensive part of the developement.

And finaly the marketing. I belive that this is the most expensive part of the developement, But since we know how ubisoft did it's promotions, i think they did it in a bad way.
Just one example of this. As an editor of a heroes fansite, I was asked by the local localization company to help them with translations and to make there texts coherent. I am not going to talk about the result of this cooperation, since I can not tell much nice about it. But this same company had an Idea to  hire a mascot to promote the game. Since I know, that the company would not dare to do a thing whitout the permission of Ubisoft, I more or less know, that the ubisoft gave an OK both to the idea and the photos. If somebody would be interested, I would send him links to show under what ubisoft gave its signature, and used to promote his Game. I will not post pictures directly here, but since I know the particular mascot in person, i know that he aswell has very few positive things to say.
The fun part at this story is, that the same company organized a huge "Coming out" party in a medieval pub.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted December 28, 2011 05:50 PM
Edited by War-overlord at 17:51, 28 Dec 2011.

Quote:

What would you prefer: The way things are now OR
Homm 6 COMPLETELY WITHOUT ANY campaign, mostly bug-free, balanced, 6 factions, a well-designed ability tree, everything working together, with 30 single maps and a simple and user-friendly map editor-
Note, that this is an extreme alternative. It would mean, there might be a campaign add-on, that would simply deliver campaigns for all factions, story, nothing too fancy...

I would wait for the possible add-on. A game without a story is a waste of my computerspace and of my time.
____________
"If you naturally have energy, then go and use it and go make some coffee for the people who need it." -Ronald Goedemondt

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted December 28, 2011 06:03 PM

I don't know why are you arguing about the campaign vs. non-campaign gameplay, this whole discussion makes no sense. You can have both, even with limited resources. You don't seem to notice where the resources are really wasted. Achievements, LOADS of them. Conflux and the sync between your private game and the public archive (in general, not just the saves). Auxiliary crap like the Michael figurine (has anyone even bough it?). These things should have never received a single penny, not the campaign.
Of course the money allocation about the campaign - if there are indeed so many funds spent on it - is far less than optimal but you are looking for the reason in the wrong place. Take the cutscenes. Heroes V had much more of them, even though their quality was pathetic. Heroes IV had none. Heroes III had generic short animations prior to each mission (much better than everything else after that but that's my opinion). Heroes II had something similar, but more... random and for the sake of it (but still charming). Now, if you rate the campaigns, Heroes IV which has no cutscenes will get a lot of approval, Heroes II and III - as well, Heroes V will be almost universally frowned upon and the Heroes VI campaign so far doesn't seem to make people scream with joy. Ergo - cutscenes just don't matter. Yes, they could add to the atmosphere if they are well-made (the Heroes V ones are definitely not and achieve the opposite of the desired effect and the Heroes VI ones are hardly spectacular) but what you really need is a good story and a good way to tell it and if you have these, you just need to make maps where the events take place. The end. You can find throngs of Heroes fans which will be able to come up with a good lore just for fun and if you decide to comminicate with them, they might as well give you some good ideas or even do the job for symbolic payment.
The point is that it's not about campaign over everything else. The campaign is not good enough and screams mediocre like most of the other things in the game so if it is some manager's favourite aspect of the project, I hate to think how cheap the whole thing actually is. It's all about incompetence. You can make a great game with next to no money. You can make a rubbish game even if you invest all the money in the world in it. It's all about how talented and knowledgeable you are. The Ubisoft people in charge of the Heroes franchise are just worthless. Simple as that.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted December 28, 2011 06:19 PM

Quote:
You don't seem to notice where the resources are really wasted. Achievements, LOADS of them. Conflux and the sync between your private game and the public archive (in general, not just the saves). Auxiliary crap like the Michael figurine (has anyone even bough it?). These things should have never received a single penny, not the campaign. ... ou can find throngs of Heroes fans which will be able to come up with a good lore just for fun and if you decide to communicate with them, they might as well give you some good ideas or even do the job for symbolic payment.


Somebody give this man a drink . I'm paying.
Achievements are all fun and games, but as long as they actually make you feel you have achieved something.
Most of them right now are just keeping track of your game statistics.
I mean an Achievement for dooing damage? building boats? converting towns? WOW i get achievements just for playing the game, not dooing something really unique. Seriusly, who wants to know if you have done 100 000 damage with your units. (this reminds me of a certain FPS parody)
They could save so much money and make such a better game if they would cooperat with those who love the game.
And while speaking of this, I anew have the need to harm the translator who did the CZ edition.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 28, 2011 06:47 PM

We are talking past each other.

The more detailed the story is, when we are talking about campaigns - the less replay value it has, but the more expensive it is to produce.
Do I freally have to repeat this?
Sure, H4 had nice campaign STORIES - but that doesn't add to replay value. If there IS a detailed story, you have to follow it, simple as that. And IF you follow it, it's basically auto-combat.

A campaign must be DIFFERENT in a strategy game. PLAY must be different depending on what you accomplish and what not - and that has nothing to do with cut-scenes.

Now take a look at Disciples 3. The problem there is even more pronounced. It seems, that campaigns was ALL they managed, and that is the really pathetic thing.

It's like, what sells stuff is the CAMPAIGN. The rest doesn't matter.

That WOULD be true, if HoMM games would do the majority of its salesin the first two months, people playing JUST the campaigns, then ditching it.
But that ISN'T true, since Homm sells over a much bigger time span of about a year, and that's what the officials say.

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krs
krs


Famous Hero
posted December 28, 2011 06:51 PM
Edited by krs at 19:14, 28 Dec 2011.

Nice posts came up for X-Mas.

Seems like with little differences, everyone here agrees where and by whom the sloppy job was done. And also we seem to agree to 4-5 things that have to be done to salvage the situation.

Anyway, I sure hope at least the scheme LeBreton was running with the VIP Fans has hit the fan. Anyone heard of his whereabouts lately?

krs

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted December 28, 2011 08:36 PM

Personally, I don't mind campaigns being in, and if they're well written, so much for the better I guess - but don't forget that the game is about playing, not story reading. I read a lot of ocmplaints in the campaign discussion threads that the campaign maps are just plain boring to play. Like people having to wait for 3 (game-)months doing nothing for armies to build up for the final match. Or have to again and again and again sit in a castle and battle scripted AI heroes. If that's what it comes down to, clearly they put the focus in the wrong place - even if the story had been great.
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Heroes 7 - News overview | Heroes 7 - Discussion thread

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