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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 30 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 (18) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 ]
bluecamel
bluecamel


Adventuring Hero
posted January 12, 2012 03:00 AM

Figured I'd repost my rant from the TOH forum, because I feel like as many eyes seeing my ubi-bashing as possible lol

-----------------------

Quote:
I shelved my Heroes 6 until Sim turns are released in a patch.. and Player Made Maps are made possible to play.  And both of them things are 100% a Necessity before I load the game again.. and also those 2 fixes need to be included in a FREE patch.  I REFUSE to pay for these to options in an expansion.. Wether you believe it or not..


I hadn't really played many Ubisoft games before so I didn't realize it, but if you do your homework, apparently almost everything Ubisoft touches turns to shyte. I'm hoping they get their act together and learn from their mistakes or the Might and Magic franchise gets bought by a diff publisher (by some miracle).

It's really sad that H6, which is by no means a bad game, is ruined because they are prioritizing patching the AI instead of making sure all components of the game at least function properly first (hi multiplayer). Making user-made MP maps playable in MP should be an incredibly fast fix, it's really not that complex. Trying to improve an AI is much harder and would probably take at least 20 times longer, possibly more depending on just how much you want to improve it. Anyone that knows anything about programming would tell you the same.

Also, recently Ubi games always have to have some bs DRM. They need to realize that whatever little they gain from having a DRM or pseudo-DRM is more than negated by how much everyone hates them for including it.

I'm with you Jinxer.. haven't played the game in quite some time, just going to check forums and such every 3-4 weeks to see if they're doing anything to fix MP.

Luckily there's lots of good games on the horizon (and some good ones out right now), I invite anyone to check out paper-rock-shotgun's extensive 2012 game list:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/01/04/an-exciting-list-of-pc-games-for-2012/ (really long and awesome list)

p.s. I think it's so fitting that the developer for h6 is named "black hole"

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted January 12, 2012 04:38 AM
Edited by SKPRIMUS at 04:43, 12 Jan 2012.

@bluecamel, no worries about ubi bashing, many feel the same way

But I disagree with your assessment of the AI thing, A LOT of the game has seemed to be unpolished & unfocused.  1.2 has improved the AI somewhat and that is a plus in my eyes since it feels like they "cared" a tiny bit {however, it was mentioned originally that the last delay of game release was to partly polish the AI which I bet they never finished by Oct deadline & just finished in Dec}...hopeless AI is a real letdown for single-player strategy thinker.

The thing about H6 is it has something that will piss you off...even if you do like parts of it

In initial release, just some examples below (excluding bugs):

Single-player strategy:
- DRM meant offline has no choice for main hero specialties for player
- computer opponent is also restricted in main hero & has no dynasty weapon & is always known since no random
- no non-dynasty main hand weapons which helps disadvantages might heroes plus I would never bother with dynasty weapons in a strategy TBS game.
- poor AI
- small number of skirmish maps
(above can partly apply to offline hotseat too)

Single-player RPG focus or casual:
- same thing as above for DRM
- no townscreens
- removal of rare resources
- feeling of same or boring/ineffective skill development

Multi-player online:
- no simturns
- separated regional ubi servers & no other online alternative
- can't play user-made MP maps
- imbalance even after beta-test complaints

ofc people's tolerances vary greatly...it can feel like playing a good game, but every once in a while the publisher b*tch-slaps you for being a customersucker.

To me, the main focus unfortunately is on casual/rpg with graphics, facebook/twitter, campaigns, dynasty etc.

If they wanted rpg/casual focus, make a game like KB & treat it as such (I liked KB a lot... but it does not pretend to be a TBS!).

at least they will have simturns & playable user-mad MP maps eventually!  But everyone knows from the past not to expect many things in a hurry.

I know for sure if they ever do H7 game that they will 100% make sure that the graphics are better as first priority

hotfix for comparing dynasty achievements is more important than hotfix for anything else for some reason...

ps. are you also previous HC user blue_camel from before?
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted January 13, 2012 01:14 AM

Quote:
To me,I know for sure if they ever do H7 game that they will 100% make sure that the graphics are better as first priority

But H6 graphics are one of the best qualities compared to previous Heroes games...!

I also think balancing is better too. Just lsat night, I just had a TOH duel battle (Elvin's map) in Heroes 5 with a mate and we were both Sylvan, his unicorn had 3 blind attacks in it's first 3 turns and I had none with my unicorns, sure it's random, but it swayed the game, as I had 3 blinded stacks....seems unfair, H6 alleviates this with one turn per round and cooldowns....

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted January 13, 2012 09:02 AM
Edited by SKPRIMUS at 09:03, 13 Jan 2012.

still I bet they can add even more useless animations like special animation for every morale & each special ability, yucky gore blood splatters everywhere from being hit (inspired by Negativland's work), moving fish & sharks in the water, salmon swimming up waterfalls, hero appearance changes according to artifacts, movies every time you build something or level up...
just to impress reviewers & casual players more next time.

& you described randomness there, not balance...I don't trust the random number generator used in H5 either.

ironicallysadly no-one discusses the strategic part much... much more comments are made on looks than anything else...

better balance I agree as more equal chances for all factions during early game, mid-game & late game (compared to H5 where balance between factions changed a lot depending on early or middle or late).

but my favourite is initiative & speed where everyone has 1 action per turn & hero action only possible at friendly creature action;
and every creature can also reach enemy in 2 turns or less
[the game designers don't get any public thanks on this point, even from those who really like the game]
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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DIEGIS
DIEGIS


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted January 13, 2012 03:15 PM

In my oppinion h6 is much, much more superior to h5 regarding luck factor! Im saying that from experience, really!
____________
dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-

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KingImp
KingImp


Famous Hero
posted January 14, 2012 10:50 AM

Quote:
In my oppinion h6 is much, much more superior to h5 regarding luck factor! Im saying that from experience, really!


That I'd definitely have to agree on.

In H5, all you had to do was take the Luck skill and it was basically game over for your opponent (if they didn't have it as well). The damn thing triggered on almost every turn, thus making it impossible to defend against.

At least now, even if you take the Destiny skill, it's still a crap shoot when it triggers. Now, I have to admit that I've yet to go past Destiny I, so I don't know how frequent it happens once you get to Destiny III.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted January 14, 2012 11:39 AM

Quote:
...In H5, all you had to do was take the Luck skill and it was basically game over for your opponent (if they didn't have it as well)...
uh....no...unless you were sylvan with retribution & luck or empathy & luck & good light spells vs magic faction after early game stage, or other side had no defence skill

H6 luck probability of 1% per stat is just hopeless together with destiny skill +1/+2/+3.

anyway, I was ok with H5 randomness...sure morale & luck could have been altered for less effects...but in many cases, on a well designed map between fairly equal factions, a good player will still beat a not so good player...but I can understand if a competitive multi-player lost something like one game out of twenty due to bad luck [due to amount of time a game takes!], plus that randomness could probably more likely be rigged by special cheat programs.

H6 paradoxically still has random weeks which can affect much & those temporary stat boosts map locations which are strangely high [& exploitably bugged] compared to some of the p*ss weak skills/artifacts on offer...
and a lvl 15 vs lvl 14 or a lvl 25 vs lvl 24 hero fight could be a big difference.
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted January 16, 2012 01:15 AM

Quote:
& you described randomness there, not balance...I don't trust the random number generator used in H5 either.


@Skprimus -> Well randomness and balancing go hand in hand.....For example back to the battle I had in H5, my mate's unicorn blinded my troops 3 times in a row (random yes) but mine didn't blind at all (random too)...but it made the battle a little imbalanced....so to add more balance, one could script the code so that if the unicorn blinds a stack, then the chances to blind again drop x 2 and if blind 2nd stack then chances to blind again drop x 3...etc. all adding to: balance.

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Mike80D
Mike80D


Famous Hero
Map Maker
posted January 16, 2012 08:52 PM

It seems the AI plays smarter and more aggressive on "Normal" than on "Hard".  Am I the only one who thinks this?  

I'm playing multiplayer with a friend, 4 player free-for-all with 2 computers, and the AI is horrible.  We played this same map on normal awhile back and it felt harder.

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted January 17, 2012 11:43 AM

I rather like ubi's soul forge idea. Let's face it, we needed a little help to upgrade all those weapons given the steep xp requirements. It would be nice to enable the forge ingame so that people do not have to seek the H6 site but better yet to tweak the levelling process and make them easier to lvl up.
____________
beware a monkey
-ghost

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Supreme Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted January 17, 2012 11:50 AM

Well I for me think the DW give to much of a bonus and boosting it up by comercial ways makes the SW idea wors in my eyes.
I would rather se some normal W then a larger boost to your overpoverd DW
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.

We see, we look, we gather, we
store, we teach. We are many,
and you can be one of us.

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted January 17, 2012 11:58 AM

The way those weapons work makes them a clear single player feature so I say that's fair. They are obviously not balanced for multiplayer as that would 1) make creeping too easy 2) give immunities to spells which would make it a gamble whether to get a spell that can possibly be negated with said weapon or not 3) that would give the advantage to those who have fully levelled them up. Not to mention how their xp stacks and you could get a fully upgraded weapon from the beginning of the map if you had been working on it.

Me, I'd rather they were better designed so that they could work in multi, in a balanced way, with their xp resetting on the beginning of the map. Alternatively, disabling dynasty weapons should enable them as a sword slot artifact that can be found ingame just like any other artifact..
____________
beware a monkey
-ghost

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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 17, 2012 03:31 PM

hello! I was thinking about some possible changes for a future patch 1.3. Tell me what you think about it.
And a question, is there any developer who come here sometimes?

I've got some ideas here:

1st the necro nerf:
I think the reacial is very cool, instead of changing/reducing it, would be better making undeads a little more fragile. Let's see

Undead      
This creature is not alive. Its Morale is always neutral and it has +20% resistance to damage (Water). It is also immune to Poison, Disease, Blind and Mind Influence effects.


resistance to water? why? remove it.
immune to almost all dark magic spells? too much I think, instead give them some resistance to dark magic and maybe keep the immunity to mind influence effects. Nagas aren't imune to water, for example.

Another important thing, they are also immune to the life drain spell. Again, it's too much. Instead make the spell drain less. This will help specially inferno imo, who relies more in the life drain spell to keep the numbers. In fact, the spell is "life drain" not "flesh drain" or "meat drain" .

2nd skill balance:
I think the skills could be changed in a way to keep the idea:
lvl 1 - weak skills
lvl 5 - weak or moderate
lvl 15 - powerfull skills

Passives should be like: lvl1 +2magic power, lvl 5 +4mp, lvl 15 +6, 7 or 8mp, maybe.

buffs/deffus should last longer or at least add skills like "eternal winter" to make them last longer, reduce the numbers if needed. This will make more sense in having different abilities, instead of repeating the same thing every 3 turns.

direct damage spells the change mentioned above could create more opportunities to use these spells. The single target version might be ok, but the multi-target version needs some rework.

healing: Regenerating troops is more important now. Different types of healing could be cool. We already have direct healing and healing over time, we could mix these effects and create a direct heal followed by a healing over time effect and vice-versa. A slow and weak healing over time ending with a big direct heal.

Improving some skills
Some magic skills:
Storm Winds 1 - boost the reduction %
Storm winds 2 - the dmg seems low, instead, this could give a chance to redirect the attack or redirect a part of the attack all the time.
Grounded - too weak, idk, maybe push the target back a little and change the name.

add a mass fire shield - specially usefull for inferno.
frenzy - idk, but don't looks powerfull for a lvl 15 skill.

blizzard - too weak, make it deal X dmg and 4X-5X dmg if the target don't move away from the area.

chilled effect: give +10% vulnerability to magic instead of +20% vulnerability to Fire.

weakness and mass should be more like inner fire in the opposite way.
life drain: maybe too strong late game, add a limite? maybe not...

magic affinity 1, 2, 3 - only lvl1 can be usefull for might heroes at the beginning, make ma 1 and 2 passive mana regen boost and ma3 a useful regen in combat.

Some might skills:
duck and cover - needs a big boost
battle march - I like this one, but they could add some structural dmg to your units.

siege master 1,2,3 - I think siege master 1 is ok, but could be interesting that someone who got the 3 skills could use the catapult not only to damage walls but the enemy units effectively as well. And of course, have the control of it. This could be a mix of the catapult and the balista of the previous games.

intimidation - again, are the undead immune to this too? these guys are really special.
taunt - good against the AI, but players will react better, could add a movement reduction. oh, and again, undeads are immune ofc...
warlord's command - the effect is 99% of the time the same of the Rush!, target stack should act now with increased damage or another bonus.
counterstrike 2 e 3 - should last a little longer. 1 turn or 2, at least on sieges.
parry - a little boost
toughness 1,2,3 - strange T1>T3? why? should be like 2/4/6-8 for tears lvl2 and 1/2/3-4 for blood at least.
archery 1,2,3 - good skill but archery 1 could be more significant, maybe 10%(12% for blood), archery 2 maybe 5% for blood, archery 3 for a lvl 15 skill this could be something more.

So, as we can see, the big problem of the Immunopolis.. oops.. the Necropolis is they are immune to 1/3 of the game. I know Asha is such a badass dragon, but for the sake of balance...

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted January 18, 2012 12:50 AM

Quote:
1st the necro nerf:
I think the reacial is very cool, instead of changing/reducing it, would be better making undeads a little more fragile. Let's see

Still think the racial is toooo cool, but yes they could keep the racial and make the units more fragile, but this might take the creature balancing out....I would tend to focus on the racial by:

- either making it increase less
- taking away increase from enemy damage and only have friendly damage affecting the racial



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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted January 18, 2012 04:01 AM

How about just making sure Undead creatures are Immune to Regeneration for instance? In any case, Necro's RIDICULOUS abilities to end 97% of their battles without any losses need to nerfed OR Inferno and Stronghold should be given means to reduce theirs.

I mean, Haven has two free Heals (FOUR if you split the stack of Vestals in the endgame), Sanctuary has two free Regenerations which also increase Magic Defence, and Necropolis has two free Heals that have a powerful life-draining effect on all adjescent living creatures. Inferno and Stronghold really miss out on such abilities.

Especially Inferno which cannot heal, and will lose their hounds at such a rapid rate even Regeneration and Life Drain cannot replenish them (not to mention Heretics, especially the ones following the path of blood, cannot afford casting those spells in every combat)
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 18, 2012 05:03 AM

I disagree a lot.

My impression is that most of what's said here is based on theory or duels.

In a real game - and real MP can be played only on the actual maps, you can easily balance things by playing with a time limit. All those healing and regenerating tactics take TIME, and Necropolis turtling tactics take time as well.

The one thing I would agree with is the question why undead can regenerate. That might be explored further and is a good and valid question.
Apart of that there are simply better anti-turtling skills needed.

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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 18, 2012 06:00 AM

I agree with DoubleDeck, the racial migh be too cool. But I think changing the racial won't be enough. Imagine the extreme case: Inferno vs Necropolis, I think necros will win almost all the time even if you don't use the racial, just the life drain spell.

And being immune to a lot of key skills and spells is too much. They pay a price (leadership, some buffs), but we could just rework these skills to give something to them. Like leadership skills giving a little bit of initiative or destiny to the undead.

@Lexxan, Reading your post, I was thinking about a possible solution for the inferno. If they goal is to create a swarm of demons on the battlefield over time, we could buff gating giving a small effect like Reinforcements on the target stack.

@JollyJoker lol, man these are just ideas.. You have all the right to disagree, but most of this was based in practice and the experience of playing the previous games. In fact, more in singleplayer mode. But I don't got your point here, I wasn't talking about timed games or any other specific mode, I was talking about general playing.

Quote:
All those healing and regenerating tactics take TIME, and Necropolis turtling tactics take time as well.


I don't got this, almost everything you do will take time, unless you rush always. And if you want to win without losses (or with less losses) you will need some time too. Inferno racial (gating), for exemple, takes some of time to be effective.

Well, I might be wrong in some aspects but again, these are just ideas, sugestions..
And btw, I like the necro faction too. lol

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted January 18, 2012 06:02 AM
Edited by Elvin at 06:04, 18 Jan 2012.

Undead are not living hence no life drain I can see what you are saying though, it does suck that inferno cannot use that spell against them. And removing mind immunity.. Nah, it'd be weird to puppet necro units.

I would definitely want skill tiers to be about weak, moderate and strong skills.

Adding more healing spells, please God no.

More or less agree with about the other skills needing a boost/nerf/slight rework. Esp siege master and toughness but those will be fixed anyway.

---

Time limits are lame, very few would agree to them anyway so balancing the game is the only serious way to avoid such tactics..
____________
beware a monkey
-ghost

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 18, 2012 06:31 AM

Oh, Elvin, come one.
Lame is only a time limit per turn, not a time limit per game, and fortunately we can play with it.

It's a fact that all those Healing and Regeneration tactics slow a battle down. Turns will be taken specifically to Regenerate lost creatures or to wait until the cooldown is over.

With a time limit per game you will be careful not to overdo it. Also it will guard from really cheesy stuff that takes ages to pull off.

Whether people like it or not, it helps, and with VI it's no problem.

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted January 18, 2012 06:35 AM

It is if people can deny it. Many if not the vast majority shunned limits in H5 and will do so again.
____________
beware a monkey
-ghost

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