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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 30 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 (19) 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 ]
Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 18, 2012 11:46 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 11:47, 18 Jan 2012.

Trying to balance bad design decisions with something as artificial as time limits is... well, if we come to that, we'll just admit that the game is retarded. No need for something so ridiculous, really - just remove the most obvious imbalances which pretty much everybody agrees about and that will be a good base already. Playing stubborn and "I know best" to the end helps nobody (that's the "+1 Defense for the Cerberi" kind if balancing, if it's not clear enough).

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 18, 2012 12:16 PM

They should at least try to play with a game time limit.

Also, I would like to know what big experience the imbalances are founded. Since user-made maps cannot be played, it must be built on experience with regular game maps, and I don't see the disadvantage. There is nothing like the punch the Inferno has in the beginning, and for the most part it's just a matter of play. True, since you miss healer creatures, you will have to pick Regeneration as a special or at least first skill, because battling high damage shooters like Priestesses or Lilims will lead to small losses, at least initially, and they should be regenerated, so that the forces don't drain away.
Also, you cannot make up a rather BRUTAL punch - if you fight a high-numbered shooter stack, one unit of you may suffer a lot of damage. But even that is just a math problem: how much damage can my mana regenerate? With shooters there is no automatic kill, so you have time. Lastly, there is the problem of fast hitters, when they come in one stack. Even for them you can pick skills.

Mathematically spoken, there is a number of HPs every faction can heal. Those with Healers are somewhat more independent from Mana, and can make up for more losses. However, HEALING troops cannot reduce the enemy when they heal, which means that armies with healing troops will suffer more damage, since they have less punch. On the other hand more punch will lessen the damage you suffer and will have to heal.

As far as I'm concerned, the only problem are the rather weak Breeders, and if I'm informed right they will get No Melee Penalty with the next patch, which is pretty cool, since the upgrade starts basically with Reinforcements already cast on them, which means that they will be pretty useful, should you choose to build them.

In short, I do not feel handicapped with the Inferno in regular play.

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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 18, 2012 12:38 PM

I agree with Zenofex about the time limit. I think there are other kinds of strategy that consume time, besides healing. Let's say using a fast unit to run around while you kill the slow unit with hero strikes, creating barriers with spells, etc. Maybe this can be decisive after a big battle. So time limit can cut strategy a little, but who knows..

Quote:
Adding more healing spells, please God no...


yeah, u'r right

about the post above, I still think inferno vs necro, there is a reasonable disadvantage for the inferno. Stronghold have a big rush power, high iniciative, dmg, movement, strike and return, then I think stronghold is in a good place. But like I said before, inferno relies more in the life drain to keep the numbers and they are not that fast like orcs are. Gating can be powerful, but is slow.

I'm not telling inferno CAN'T beat necros, but after playing with other factions I found they are the hardest to obtain a clean victory (even playing with the AI) against necros, for example. And as another guy said before, is not this game all about winning without losses or with less losses?

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 18, 2012 01:31 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 13:39, 18 Jan 2012.

Quote:
They should at least try to play with a game time limit.
Why don't you apply for a head of the project next time? This way you'll have all the needed liberties to decide how the game should be played (though I'm not sure that there will be many people who will want to play it your way). Right now you are suggesting something ridiculous, especially given that people have already said what they need to relieve the problem with the slow battles - sim-turns. Instead of telling the people how they should play to compensate for Ubihole's failures, go shout to the latter to fix the game - and to do it fast, because it will soon be dead and gone.

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BlazeHun
BlazeHun


Adventuring Hero
posted January 18, 2012 02:07 PM

Quote:

I'm not telling inferno CAN'T beat necros, but after playing with other factions I found they are the hardest to obtain a clean victory (even playing with the AI) against necros, for example. And as another guy said before, is not this game all about winning without losses or with less losses?


Maybe if a percent of the gated stacks stay after the battle?
Or lost creatures boost growth in castle?
____________

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 18, 2012 02:18 PM

Quote:
Quote:
They should at least try to play with a game time limit.
Why don't you apply for a head of the project next time? This way you'll have all the needed liberties to decide how the game should be played (though I'm not sure that there will be many people who will want to play it your way). Right now you are suggesting something ridiculous, especially given that people have already said what they need to relieve the problem with the slow battles - sim-turns. Instead of telling the people how they should play to compensate for Ubihole's failures, go shout to the latter to fix the game - and to do it fast, because it will soon be dead and gone.

You give the wrong advice to the wrong people - *I* can live very good with the way things are. YOU are complaining, so maybe YOU should apply, so that next time everything is done the way YOU want to have it.

*I* am just saying that trying what is there and using it, just might offer better results than endlessly complaining over things that are not and won't come, because it will be very difficult to make them work.


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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 18, 2012 02:22 PM

For an insider, you seem to be awfully disinterested in representing the community. No point in arguing further.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 18, 2012 02:58 PM

For a human you seem awfully disterested in representing reason - if you don't have more to offer than personal remarks, I see indeed no point in further arguing.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted January 18, 2012 03:08 PM

JJ doesn't necessarily identify as a forum administrator or as a representative of HC, so I think it's fair enough that he has no onus to speak for anyone but himself.

I, for one, can't live with the way things currently are in H6 and I know that a majority of the forum community thinks similarly. As a representative, I expect at least a few overhauls to some of the basic mechanics in the future if it is even to get close to being a really good Heroes game.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 18, 2012 03:20 PM

I agree with that, but the game doesn't suffer from the fact that Inferno has no healer unit.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 18, 2012 03:54 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 15:55, 18 Jan 2012.

Like this whole thing above was about Inferno having no healers (I don't want them either). The loudest complaints are about totally different things and on top of Ubihole's unwillingness to show a sign that they intend to fix them any time soon, we have you giving "advises" that nobody will follow for obvious reasons and stating that you are mostly fine with the game as it is. It doesn't sound reassuring. I'm expecting this from an Ubisoft representative but not from an insider. You can like the game as much as you want but when most of the players are openly dissatisfied with it - or at least with certain aspects of it - you shouldn't really be telling them that they are doing the things wrong and that's why they can't appreciate it. I.e. you are posting in the wrong forum, giving suggestions to the wrong people.

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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 18, 2012 03:59 PM

Quote:
Quote:

I'm not telling inferno CAN'T beat necros, but after playing with other factions I found they are the hardest to obtain a clean victory (even playing with the AI) against necros, for example. And as another guy said before, is not this game all about winning without losses or with less losses?


Maybe if a percent of the gated stacks stay after the battle?
Or lost creatures boost growth in castle?


that can be interesting depending on how they implement, but keeping gated units looks similar to the seal of power (might-tears). They could give a weak effect to inferno as baseline, and give a better effect to tears spec.

Quote:
I agree with that, but the game doesn't suffer from the fact that Inferno has no healer unit.

and who said that? lol I rly dont want healers in the inferno faction too, but I want tools to reduce the inferno losses, as this is crucial for any faction in the game with the current approach. And inferno against anything is not the big problem, but inferno against necropolis.. no life drain, no enthrall, I didn't test these 2 yet but I'm assuming no tauting presence and no blade of hatred.
I like a lot the style of Necropolis, but I still think they r immune to too many things.

Ironically, if u ask me, inferno and stronghold aren't even my favorite factions, but a more balanced game is always more fun to play.

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Mike80D
Mike80D


Famous Hero
Map Maker
posted January 18, 2012 04:16 PM

My opinion on Inferno:  It generally stinks.  Core Hounds are so awful its not even funny.  There's a reason the AI, and human players, always target core hounds first and completely blow them up.  The elites in Inferno aren't particularly good either.  I prefer the elites in every other castle.  

Most people I know refuse to play as Inferno in a competitive multiplayer game.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 18, 2012 05:03 PM

Quote:


Quote:
I agree with that, but the game doesn't suffer from the fact that Inferno has no healer unit.

and who said that? lol I rly dont want healers in the inferno faction too, but I want tools to reduce the inferno losses, as this is crucial for any faction in the game with the current approach.
Which losses?

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 18, 2012 05:23 PM

Quote:
My opinion on Inferno:  It generally stinks.  Core Hounds are so awful its not even funny.  There's a reason the AI, and human players, always target core hounds first and completely blow them up.  The elites in Inferno aren't particularly good either.  I prefer the elites in every other castle.  

Most people I know refuse to play as Inferno in a competitive multiplayer game.


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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 18, 2012 05:59 PM

Quote:
Quote:


Quote:
I agree with that, but the game doesn't suffer from the fact that Inferno has no healer unit.

and who said that? lol I rly dont want healers in the inferno faction too, but I want tools to reduce the inferno losses, as this is crucial for any faction in the game with the current approach.
Which losses?


unit losses? maybe? LOL Again, I don't got your point here. But I'm guessing you just disagree, like u said before.

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Dudeman. Half dude. Half man.
posted January 18, 2012 06:48 PM

Inferno doesn't need a healer, it just needs a few extra mechanisms to make it more competitive. Stronghold has no healers but they still have plenty of tools to avoid loses and deal indirect damage; it's the most well-designed faction among the 5 imo.

I don't know if Inferno will ever get a significant boost though. In H5 they were also somewhat underwhelming unless you picked Deleb, and it never really changed.
____________
Gentlemen.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 18, 2012 06:51 PM

I don't have any losses.

I have no idea what maps you are playing on what difficulty and how you play - I have no losses. Sorry.

Only when battling armies led by heroes - but that's normal, since they can flee, so you cannot determine the end of the battle.

Ok, I may lose a dog, once in a while, but that's mostly due to careless play.
Maybe I play differently.

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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 18, 2012 08:45 PM

Quote:
I don't have any losses.

I have no idea what maps you are playing on what difficulty and how you play - I have no losses. Sorry. .....

Ok, I may lose a dog, once in a while, but that's mostly due to careless play.
Maybe I play differently.


Or maybe you are just trolling.
Because this is very strange.. everyone posting here agree with the inferno's situation, but you must be some kind of phenomenom! the destiny's chosen!

So tell me, Dovahkiin, tell to this little mortal how do you play with inferno against the necropolis without losses.
Please, don't tell me you just FUS RO DAH those freaking undeads.

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Mike80D
Mike80D


Famous Hero
Map Maker
posted January 18, 2012 09:12 PM

Quote:
I don't have any losses.

I have no idea what maps you are playing on what difficulty and how you play - I have no losses. Sorry.

Only when battling armies led by heroes - but that's normal, since they can flee, so you cannot determine the end of the battle.

Ok, I may lose a dog, once in a while, but that's mostly due to careless play.
Maybe I play differently.


There are only 2 ways to avoid losing Core Hounds:

1)  Don't put them on the battlefield (recommended against all heroes and ranged units)
2)  Hide them in the corner of a battlefield and never move them out until the final attack, provided the attack cannot be retaliated against (recommended only against neutral armies that have no ranged units).

Normally I agree with a bunch of your optimism JJ, but I don't understand you when it comes to Inferno.  I score near perfect scores on hard for each campaign, and yet during the Inferno campaign I can't keep a stack of 80 core hounds alive more than 1 battle.  The faction as a whole leaves a lot to be desired, and is underwhelming.

I agree with others that Inferno shouldn't have healing, but something needs to be fixed with them to be viable.

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