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| Thread: Resource Requirements Balancing |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 14, 2012 12:01 PM |
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I was a fan of dumping the randomness, but seeing the way it was ultimately carried out...  I'm not much of a fan of it anymore 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 14, 2012 01:00 PM |
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Adaptation to the map is simply to grow slower, not to grow in a different direction. You're never ever going to buy Vampires instead of Liches because Liches are better and they cost the same resources in extremely similar amounts.
Not true. It's not clear-cut at all, because you will be rarely in a situation that will allow you to build ONE Elite dwelling ONLY.
Instead you will have to consider your COMPLETE building strategy. Liches are good, true. ARCHliches, however, are WAY better, and also give 2 more creatures. On the other hand, for Archliches to be really valuable you need OTHER troops as well.
Generally, you are making a fatal mistake here. In former Heroes version THE SAME kind of resource managing was necessary with Ore, Wood and either one or two rare resources. The only difference was, that it was never much of a problem to get the buildings in that did NOT use those 3 or 4, with some notable exceptions, but generally you can say, that in terms of Wood, Ore, ONE specific resource or even two (for example Dungeon in H5) nothing has changed. The only difference is, that each town is now missing the resources that are not dearly used anyway - and with them the easy to do buildings.
Case in Point: Sylvans in H5. Everything is about WOOD managing - and to a lesser extent Gems and Crystals.
So, no, not much has changed.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 14, 2012 02:04 PM |
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I still think it is true that to a large extent, the situation with the new system is one of two, namely:
a) Either you can afford to build, or
b) Oherwise you can't afford to build.
What is missing is the old option c:
c) You can afford to build building A, but you can't afford to built building B.
Now of course that IS a gross simplification, but none-the-less, the impression remains, that there is a lot of time sitting around "doing nothing". Now I understand why some people may say that the old system - where you just build building A while you waited for ressources to pile up so you could afford building B - was less tactical (and I guess it was), but I still think it was more fun. I loath "doing nothing" in games.
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What will happen now?
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted January 14, 2012 05:11 PM |
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I was a fan of dumping the randomness, but seeing the way it was ultimately carried out... I'm not much of a fan of it anymore
@Doomforge...LOL wut? I don't think you thought deeply before you said that! [I did read your red-starred thread in H5 forum long ago]
They did allow player to pick hero skill, pick hero spells, creeps don't vary as much in deadliness due to own troops higher hp & regen/heal...
randomness of rare resources is gone but it would have been alleviated in many ways by the improved market exchange rates
anyway, whole thread has gone offtopic
if no discussion about 1 vs 4 rare resources; then changing resource costs have minor impact (because fortification costs are similar for all factions anyway) compared to the overwhelmingly large number of other things ubihole can do for those who already bought the game...
@alcibiades,
Option C is still there, just occurs much less frequently:
eg. I need to get as much army on this turn now on A Bridge Too Far map...I would very much like to build glory dwelling [6000gp, 8wood, 8ore, 6crystal] but after marketplace exchanges I have only enough to build sun-rider dwelling [4000gp, 12wood, 5crystal] & hire out 2 sun-riders due gold shortage.
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 14, 2012 05:19 PM |
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Option C is still there, just occurs much less frequently
Obviously, yes, like I said it was a gross oversimplification. None the less, with the new tier system, we do have a number of buildings in each city that compete not only for the same types, but also roughly same amounts of ressources, which favors the mutual exclusion.
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What will happen now?
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted January 15, 2012 05:20 AM |
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well I'm not sure if you really mean oversimplication because having those 3 scenarios you mentioned leads to what some others have said:
4 rare resources leading to slightly different building orders depending on resources availability
==> often means having to choose non-optimal build orders
==> complaints by some players because the building alternatives are never exactly balanced due to imperfect design and the fact that shooter types have been historically favoured in doing damage from afar without receiving any.
So one could say they catered to those complaints & let player have more choice in getting optimal building order & ignored the other worse consequence (imo) of pissing off previous fans.
The designers went for the easiest way from their point of view: 1 rare resource & almost same building trees for everyone
Don't get me wrong, there are also different strategies involved in thinking about managing 4 different rare resources too & how far from optimal does one deviate in building order, while taking into account map dependencies of closeness of enemies in the short-term vs slightly more better troops in long-term etc.
btw I like what Zenofex said on last page:
"...The real question is how skilled are the designers..." and
"...What I'm not sure is whether I'll be willing to pay them even one more penny just to get the game working on 100% with all the good features from the previous games..."
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 15, 2012 09:04 AM |
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So one could say they catered to those complaints & let player have more choice in getting optimal building order & ignored the other worse consequence (imo) of pissing off previous fans.
The designers went for the easiest way from their point of view: 1 rare resource & almost same building trees for everyone
Yeah, but to give them credit, I don't think it's only about complaints and taking the easy way. They also took the way that made greater similarity between factions (and hence better balance and greater competivity) which is good for multiplayer aspect of game - and there's nothing wrong with that. As a singleplayer player, I don't necessarily benefit as much from these changes, and it's easier for me to complain, but I guess that's always the dilemma they will face when making choices (which is also why I've all the time promoted what I think is a slightly better compromise, namely two rare ressources).
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What will happen now?
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 15, 2012 10:43 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
So one could say they catered to those complaints & let player have more choice in getting optimal building order & ignored the other worse consequence (imo) of pissing off previous fans.
The designers went for the easiest way from their point of view: 1 rare resource & almost same building trees for everyone
Yeah, but to give them credit, I don't think it's only about complaints and taking the easy way. They also took the way that made greater similarity between factions (and hence better balance and greater competivity) which is good for multiplayer aspect of game - and there's nothing wrong with that. As a singleplayer player, I don't necessarily benefit as much from these changes, and it's easier for me to complain, but I guess that's always the dilemma they will face when making choices (which is also why I've all the time promoted what I think is a slightly better compromise, namely two rare ressources).
I don't think greater similarity between factions makes for better multiplayer play. Better multiplayer is had when the factions are different but equal. Heck, even if one faction was better at rushing and thus was hard to beat on small maps while another faction had a better late game and was tough to beat on big maps, that would be much better than what we have now.
With all the factions getting their troops and upgrades in similar numbers with similar costs using similar resources it just comes down to a simple comparison that is valid in all instances. The Necropolis is better than you are. In the short game, the long game, with high resources or scarce resources, in big maps or small maps. The Necropolis is better whether you have bigger armies or smaller armies, whether crystal is abundant or scarce. There isn't really any strategy you can employ that would make the Necropolis not be better than you. You can't delay conflict and hold out for Titans or sprint to phoenixes and rush them before they get their high end together.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 15, 2012 11:56 AM |
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They did allow player to pick hero skill, pick hero spells, creeps don't vary as much in deadliness due to own troops higher hp & regen/heal...
which is all fine, but I'm somewhat disappointed by their beta testing period. That was quite a bit of time, and look at the changelog. Underwhelming. If you want to give people multiple paths, you must make them diverse and well-balanced, else it will be cookie-cutter strategy from day one. And that pretty much happened here.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 15, 2012 12:40 PM |
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The Necropolis is better than you are.
That's just because Necropolis is the best TURTLER and the game is tilted in favor of turtling - in other words, there are no good anti-turtling skills. That starts with area spells being entirely too underwhelming, and it ends with the fact that there might be skills robbing efficiency for too close contact with too many friendly stacks, "friendly fire" effects and so on.
In the end all shortcomings more or less can be attributed to an uninspired skill set.
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