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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Defence Specialists
Thread: Defence Specialists [ This thread is 4 pages long: 1 (2) 3 4 ]
thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 09:30 AM

It really depends. How about the following:-
Quote:
However on a closed map were it is almost a certainty that Taz will have exp sheild/stone skin.. probably resistance (if I am playing with him) there really is nothing you can do with say... Serena.. or cyra, or solmyr...

THey will just be massacared...

I remember one instance were level 23 Tazar and 109 Iron Golems + exp resistance and Polarity boots were taking 34 damage from a stack of 7 black drags, and 300 odd damage from the 3K?? implo being thrown at them..
Though rare, but things like that do happen.
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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 09:44 AM

Well, discussion can go on and on and on......
Nothing is without counter.

For intelligence + resurrection, how about massive
damages inflicted on multiple units ? Simply you got
too many units to resurrect. (this is possible from
my limited gaming experience.)

Besides, to develop a great mage (except those lv4 hero), you need to build up mage guilds while that take time and resources. Thus, they are vulnerable to rush tactic.

Ya, there are maps which magic heroes have edge, same goes
for might heroes.

For clone, if your best unit got crippled in first round,
what else can you clone ???
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and love what you choose.

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meZoh
meZoh


Hired Hero
posted March 05, 2002 09:48 AM

Quote:
Well, discussion can go on and on and on......
Nothing is without counter.

For intelligence + resurrection, how about massive
damages inflicted on multiple units ? Simply you got
too many units to resurrect. (this is possible from
my limited gaming experience.)

Besides, to develop a great mage (except those lv4 hero), you need to build up mage guilds while that take time and resources. Thus, they are vulnerable to rush tactic.

Ya, there are maps which magic heroes have edge, same goes
for might heroes.

For clone, if your best unit got crippled in first round,
what else can you clone ???

it is easy to build mage guild because we talk about closed map. if my best unit got crippled in first round I use ressurection
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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted March 05, 2002 03:59 PM

This is what Ungo posted on the 3d0's message board regarding damage calculations. It sadens me to say this, but most of the things I know about this game I learned not here, but on that board.

************

The specific formula, including all factors, is this:

Base damage = damage rolled per creature's abilities. This includes the (attack skill + 1) multiplier for Ballistas.

Bonus damage = total extra damage, including:

+base damage * 5% * (attack - defense) if attack is > defense, but no more than 3 x base damage.

+base damage * archery skill (10% to 50%) bonus for shooters.

+base damage * offense skill (10% to 30%) bonus for melee creatures.

+base damage for good luck

+base damage * 5% * distance for Champions and Cavaliers.

+base damage for elemental attacking opposite elemental type

+base damage / 2 for creatures which "hate" other creatures: Angels and Devils, Titans and Black Dragons, Efreet and Genies.

+base damage for ballista's "double damage"

+base damage for dread knight's "double damage"

+base damage * 3% * hero's level / creature's level if creature has Bless and the hero has the Bless special ability.

Fire Shield damage = (base damage + bonus damage) * fire shield percentage. Fire shield damage cannot exceed the target's hit points.

Damage reduction = 100%

* (100% - 2.5% * (defense - attack)) if defense > attack, but no less than 30%.

* armorer reduction ( 100% - (0% to 15%) * (1 + 5% * hero's level if hero has Defense specialty))

* 50% if attacker is shooting through a wall and is not a mage, archmage, enchanter, or sharpshooter, and the attacker does not have the Golden Bow.

* 50% if attacker is shooting over 10 hexes, and the attacker is not a sharpshooter or arrow tower, and the attacker does not have the Golden Bow.

* 50% if attacker is a shooter in melee, and is not a mage, archmage, titan, beholder, evil eye, medusa, medusa queen, enchanter, or ballista.

* blindness penalty (depends on expertise of spell)

* air shield reduction if attacker is shooting

* shield reduction if attacker is in melee

* 50% if defender is Stoned

* 50% if attacker is a Psi elemental and defender is immune to mind spells

* 50% if attacker is a Magic elemental and defender is a Magic elemental or Black Dragon


Final damage = (base damage + bonus damage) * damage reduction, but no less than 1.


Thus, anything that gives a bonus to damage is additive, but anything that gives a penalty is multiplicative.


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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted March 05, 2002 08:07 PM
Edited By: Zud on 13 Mar 2002

Quote:
anything that gives a bonus to damage is additive, but anything that gives a penalty is multiplicative.




All you had to say was the part at the bottom. I understand even though I don't agree with that. The bonuses should be multipied into each other. You didn't explain that in either of your posts.

You never said that the A/D bonus was not multiplied. I thought that the attack bonuses would be multiplied into each other instead.

I don't like to spend an hour finding out whether or not expert offense and A/D bonuses are added to the base damage. I don't have that much time. I just thought I saw a mathematical error.
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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted March 05, 2002 08:44 PM

Discussing is the best way to learn. And in order to discuss, you have to think, so thinking is great.
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meZoh
meZoh


Hired Hero
posted March 06, 2002 06:37 AM

Quote:
Discussing is the best way to learn. And in order to discuss, you have to think, so thinking is great.

Playing is the best way to learn!
Mages are the best heroes in Heroes(oups).Warriors are sux,but mage&warriors like terek are good too.
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Mocara
Mocara


Famous Hero
what?
posted March 06, 2002 09:40 AM

Sure thing Mezoh.

Let's play hourglass. Pick any mage you like and I'll take Tazar. =)

You would be amazed.

-Mocara
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AndiAngelsla...
AndiAngelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted March 06, 2002 10:07 AM

i dont believe in fairy tales like tazar and hack really get 5% per level, thats just what it makes you feel if your own hero is weak and you get a good beating
and hack is always better than tazar, tazar will fall to powerful spells more easy coz he cant kill fast enough, while hack and mass haste dont

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malkia
malkia


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 06, 2002 11:11 AM

it's 5% per level but from total of 30% - i guess you already knew that

so level 20 means only 30% + 30% = 60% defense which means that if they hit you with 100 you take up only 40 - pretty good ya?

gee - sounds unbelievable - i guess i made some mistake!!?
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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 06, 2002 11:34 AM

Quote:
i dont believe in fairy tales like tazar and hack really get 5% per level, thats just what it makes you feel if your own hero is weak and you get a good beating
and hack is always better than tazar, tazar will fall to powerful spells more easy coz he cant kill fast enough, while hack and mass haste dont


Of course it´s 5% per level. At level 20 Tazar defends like a Beastmaster who has Armorer skill twice (absorbs 30% damage). That´s because 20*5%=100%.

The other argument is a valid point. Against a strong magic hero, Attack/Offense helps more than Defense/Armorer.
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AndiAngelsla...
AndiAngelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted March 06, 2002 11:45 AM

lol i ment its not 5% per level so you end up with 115% or whatever at level 20, know what i mean...someone said this in that thread that it might be true coz tazar gets "untouchable"
of course i know its 5% of the skill per level, which doubles the effect of the skill at L20, actually im shocked you thought that of me!!! just kidding and tossing

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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 06, 2002 11:53 AM

I prefer armourers against the map, they do it so easily in key things like griffin conservatories and naga banks. Offense heroes still take a beating in most of those areas, but armourers can escape nearly unscathed. In a final fight though, gimme either and I'm happy.
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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted March 06, 2002 12:25 PM

I prefer Hack or Gundula if you´re playing castle and have mass prayer and expert tactics. If you´re a low speed town I like armourer better. And if its one of those "we get lots of relics so that everyone has 30 30 30 30"  I prefer sorcery or intelligence hero, because although attack and defence balance eachother out, there is nothing to balance out 30 spellpower.

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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted March 06, 2002 02:07 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Discussing is the best way to learn. And in order to discuss, you have to think, so thinking is great.

Playing is the best way to learn!
Mages are the best heroes in Heroes(oups).Warriors are sux,but mage&warriors like terek are good too.


Playing still involves thinking (unless you've played the map 80 times) But on good maps you still need to think about what you're doing. And discussing the game experiences after the game repeats what you learned, so discussing prevents you from making the mistake and you learn things more quickly this way.
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mklthrkngl
mklthrkngl


Known Hero
posted March 09, 2002 08:00 PM

a little clarification

just to make sure we all know what they do, i've noticed a few misconceptions concerning how armour and offense work in this post. i will not bore you with cryotic arithmatic. i'll leave that to the other posers!

simply put, offense increases the base attack damage of a creature. this does not include the extra damage caused by added bonus for attack. therefore an archangel will get a max bonus of 15 damage from expert offense, or 30 from a lvl 20 specialist.

in case you don't alrdy know, all bonus points for either attack or defense give you a bonus of 2.5 to damage added or removed from your total. this figure is rounded down for the offense or up for the defense.

as for armour, it gets a little more tricky. many think armour percentage should be higher as the offense skill appears to be double the affect. this is a misconception. 3DO actually balanced the 2 very well. The reason being that armour works on total damage taken including bonus damage from the added attack bonus from the hero attacking as well as the offense bonus itself.

example:red hero has 10 atttack expert offense and 1 archy.
blue heroe has 0 defense but has expert armour.

normally red would do 90 damage in an attack, 50 for normal archy attack + 15 for his offensive bonus of 30% + 25 for his heroes attack bonus of 10.

but he actually only does 76damage or 14 less. the offense specialty only confers an effective bonus of 1!

you think that's wild, it gets even worse!!

if the heroe.s are even with attacker having 10 and defender having 10 defense. the damage is caculated first, than the armour damage is minused, than the defensive bonus of ten is minused!!  that's another 25 damage removed!!

so at this point expert armour and offense are effectivly negating aech other. past this point the armoure bonus increases in effectiveness and offense becomes less of factor.

so there ya have it, at the higher lvls armourer is a much more powerfull specialty than offense.

so in answer to zuds question, YES!! those damn armourer specialists seem almost unstoppable on maps where they're allowed to get to higher lvls, and now you know why!

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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted March 10, 2002 10:33 AM

hehe, now you know why Marius is my 2nd favorite hero  
she comes with adv armorer, and because she's a demoniac, she usually receives great skills like logistics, earth magic, diplomacy, etc..

but ... along with this, when I have a demonic army of 120+ demons after 3 weeks (done it MANY times on most ToH maps), I'll want that demon specialist.  

btw: 1st favorite is Mullich ... I just like him even though I know there are better heroes.  
- devils suck vs. humans, so pit-lords are the way to go!
____________
- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models.  Well ... the ones his age (18-26)  

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thecastrated
thecastrated


Known Hero
posted March 12, 2002 08:01 AM

So its agreed that crag is better at low lvls, worse at high but still the conclusion is that tazar's better? The question isnt that simple though..

Ok, say up till the point before either player takes utopia. Up till this moment crag is better. His being better has already allowed him to lose less creatures and fight fights which he otherwise would not(gaining +2 attack or whatever).

This needs to b taken into consideration..


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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted March 12, 2002 05:36 PM

advantages of Attack vs. Defense

greetings.

It's quite logical that attack should fare better than defense against spell users.
The faster the spellusers troops falls the less problems from the spells he casts.

Defense makes your troop take less damage from meelee and shoots. We all know that, though all the statement here of how it's calculated actual have made me a little confused!

But what about adressing what is the real advantage of taking less damage, and so fighting longer battles, (than if focusing on offence).

Well how does an attack specialist and a defense specialist do in a battle against the same army?
When battle is over and they won, they would have dealt the same damage (else the opponent would not be dead!). They would have recieve nearly the same damage, (if spells and creature specials are not counted in) asuming that attack and defense is balanced in the game !!

The advantage of the attack specialist is that he wins fast, so he have fewer rounds to recive damage from enemy spells.

The advantage of the defence specialist is that he wins slow!!, so he have more rounds to let his creatures special abillity do their work on the enemy.

Not all creature specials are improving when in long battles , but a few really are!

Have anyone of you have a (looooong) battle where 2 defense specialist with low attack fight each others? Who wins? I have , so IMHO easy -

Fortress wins!!

In such a battle Gorgon rules (as usual, but with a greater effect) but to manys surprise Wywern Monarcs kicks high too. ( their poison attack does take out a lot of the enemy hitpoints! at least in SOD). And the more rounds of fighting, the more value does the Baselisks petrify have. And Dragonflies just want to have a sting on every thing.

Tzar wins against nearly any other high defense heros army because fortress army gets more value from there creature specials , than any other town, in the long battle.

But beware to put fortress up against undeads! Undeads are immume to some of the fortress advantages, and undeads are actual very strong in the hand of a defence based hero. Vampire lords, ghost dragons and power liches all benefit from high defense=long battles. The drawback for The Necropolis is it does not have a defense specialist.

And IMHO, the defense army does above average against the attack army, but that could be prejustice from my part!

Look at stronghold: all creature specials is related to direct damage except one (and all does cash out to make a battle shorter- even the exceptions the cyclops wall attack counts here). The don't become better in a long battle, not worse either.

Look at fortress: all creature specials cash out better in the long battle, where they have time to get in action and unfold in all their dread.

If a attack specialist with low defense was given a fortress army, all the special ability would not kick in their power! (Whats the point of poison, deathstare and so on, of the stack is dead before it works)

In a long battle there are more chance of getting stacks gathered, making a multi hex attack count! If stacks kills each other to fast , there is not that much ganging up.
The more damage a stack gives the more important is it to hit first, this limits the choices in a battle, as opposed to be able to take the first blow, just to get a strategy advantage in the battle.
This means that the hydra multi head attack, the lich area attack, and other attacks like that, is suiting the high defense approach a lot. They are still dreadfull with high attack, just more difficult to setup to benefit fully from.

To Sum it Up. High defense really shines when having creatures with nasty special abilitys!! Fortress (and Necropolis) is placed high for that.
Other towns doesn't have that many, if any creatures, with special abilitys there have more value in a long battle than in a short!

with regards
Jondifool


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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience

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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted March 14, 2002 04:29 AM
Edited By: RedSoxFan3 on 13 Mar 2002

Stronghold is definately an offensive town. I definately prefer to have expert haste and prayer, because then my creatures have speed of +20. I did this with castle and my archangles had a speed of 27 or 28. I think that offense is very good with spells that increase the combat speed of units. With hordes of Wolf Raiders that have speed 15 are many times more effective at cleaning up after what the behemoths and thunderbirds left behind.
Stronghold units are a bit slow, but take over the game with expert haste. It completely catches the opponent off guard, expecting to be able to wait until I come in close, then shooting me to death. They wait with they're dragons, I cast haste/prayer and attack they're dragons with my ancients, then I move in with my thunderbirds and they should have lost well over half of their horde. I can then shoot down some of their troops before they have another chance. I usually try to kill their fast units first. Expert tactics works well, too especially if you have archangels or devils from another town. Just 1 or 2 will be enough. Slide up all your creatures, all the way, cast haste or prayer, and you can attack with 3/4 of your units before they can even get one turn. Their level 7's are probably gone after that turn and any other threats can be can be taken care of by orge magi with 60 hp! It just works really well. Attack special is all in how you use it. Same with defense.
Defense you would want resurrection, slow, counterstrike, and maybe frenzy on hydras at the right time could deal some major damage in the "Long Battle." Resurrection could deal with any losses.
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