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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Intelligent Design / Creationism
Thread: Intelligent Design / Creationism This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 08, 2012 03:55 AM
Edited by Fauch at 03:57, 08 Mar 2012.

yeah, but how do you prove that something doesn't exist? it doesn't even make sense to try?
though Elodin is right I think, atheism isn't the absence of belief in gods, but the belief that there is no god.

and when they talked about truth, maybe they meant The Truth? something that I have no idea what the hell it is supposed to mean

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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted March 08, 2012 04:04 AM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 04:05, 08 Mar 2012.

Quote:
and when they talked about truth, maybe they meant The Truth? something that I have no idea what the hell it is supposed to mean


It is a commodity.
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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 08, 2012 06:56 AM

@ Elodin

I am a Christian myself, I merely pointed out that you can be religious without belief in God (e.g. Buddhists)

Also I've heard this once : "An atheist can't find God by the same reason a thief can't find a policeman". I don't agree 100% with that though. But if one reads the Bible as a mere tale or not understanding for whom the Old Testament was written and that the NT is for Christians, he/she will most likely not believe it.

I'm sure there were many who fell away from their faith like in the parable of the sower.

I'm not going to get with anyone in a debate over faith or lack of faith, I do not wish to judge.


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 08, 2012 08:42 AM

Quote:


Truth does mean something. 2+3=5. That is true.
No, that's mathematics. Mathematics is a completely human concept, and it's basically a language: "2" is well-defined, "3" is well-defined, "+" is well-defind, "=" is well-defined, and "5" is also well-defined. We can use this language to describe aspects of "reality", BECAUSE  that language IS well-defined, but it's not so easy as you seem to think: we COULD define different axioms for a completely different mathematic, and in that case 2+3 was NOT 5. If, for example, we add SPEEDS, based upon the underlying yardstick, 2+3 will NOT equal 5, but it may be much less. The sums of the arcs in a triangle is NOT always 180 degrees - you may define 2-dimensional geometry on a ball, like Euler did, and suddenly a+b+c is NOT 180 degrees anymore. TRUTH is still depending on the frame of reference

Quote:
Truth is not just a concept. What is true is true regardless of your perception that it is true or untrue.
THAT is true only, if there IS INDEED an absolute point of view, a pov that has ALL pertinent information. Take for example any issue - say people find a body. What happens next is, the scene is roped off and someone comes and tries to etablish what caused the death. And so on. People - who are paid to do that - try and gather KNOWLEDGE: facts, evidence, witnesses, to form a picture of what might be called "the truth". But what IS that truth? Let's assume, it can be established that a certain person killed the body, whacked him to death. Is that the truth? No, it's just part of it. Only when ALL pertinent facts are known, the TRUTH behind it comes forth, and the FULL truth will NEVER be known, even if the bare facts are.
That's why your religion says, GOD is the judge of men, because ONLY God knows the full truth.

Which means, that YOUR truth is, GOD is the truth, but since you BELIEVE that only, your truth is just an assumption. Sorry.

For everyone who does NOT believe this, the concept of truth is as much a concept as the mathematical value "infinite".

Quote:

Religion is seeking truth about the world around us, what is within us, the purpose of the world, the purpose of us individually and as a community, meeting the needs of our fellow man, discovering what God wants and expects from us, ect.
See above: Religion claims to already KNOW the truth - there is just one, and humans would try to steal a view on this or that aspect of it. This cannot be done in a scientifical way, because God is not well-defined; he is no object of scientific observation, investigation and experiment. He is OUTSIDE of the scientific way of GAINING KNOWLEDGE.

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GunFred
GunFred


Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
posted March 08, 2012 11:25 AM
Edited by GunFred at 11:26, 08 Mar 2012.

"To say "God does not exist" is a statement of faith for which there is less evidence that the statement "God exists." The US courts have correctly ruled atheism to be a religion. Atheists have no evidence for their cornerstone dogmas, they merely take them by faith."

Who gave the US courts the right to decide that? US? Even if you called atheism faith then there is still the difference on how people aquire that faith. A good christian trust an over 1000 years old book with its share of questionable texts and written by people with an agenda. A good atheist, as people already explained, decide what to believe according to what seems more likely to be true and can change their belief unlike a christian who either believe what has already been decided by other christians  or is no real christian  at all. Of course atheists has to believe in scientists and other people just like theists but as said, the difference is in the information aquirement method.

"Science does not lend credence to the position atheists have traditionally held until recently (that the universe is eternal) nor to the idea that the universe could produce itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing. Atheism is in no way more "scientific" than any other religion. In fact it is less in harmony with "known" science than say Judaism or Christianity."

"Oh, comments that religion is not about seeking truth are untrue. Christianity certainly emphasizes a search for truth."

As said many times by me and others, christianity is hardly a truth seeking religion since the truth has already been decided.

"A lot of people have been decieved into thinking God does not exist and dismiss every experience others have. As a Pentecostal I have had many "close encounters" with God."

History clearly shows that people are not to be trusted in cases like these. Even if there were a good bunch of reals among the fakes, it would mean that either all real ones are from one single religion or dispersed among all religion. Would then a muslim claim that the other real ones are just misunderstanding god? A christian or hindu has just as much claim on the opposite as the muslim has.

"Truth does mean something. 2+3=5. That is true. Truth is not just a concept. What is true is true regardless of your perception that it is true or untrue.

We have already seen that scientists are not always forthcoming with information that is counter to whatever sacred theories they hold to be true and that they are not beyond falsifying data.

Religion is seeking truth about the world around us, what is within us, the purpose of the world, the purpose of us individually and as a community, meeting the needs of our fellow man, discovering what God wants and expects from us, ect."

I agree with JJ on the 2+3=5 thing. The math I am relearning in extra classes right now(because I failed the first time(I suck)) is like religion to me. It seems to be senseless without logic

Edit: Accidently posted it without finishing it, will soon update it
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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 08, 2012 11:50 AM

What annoys me is when I see "debates" like Crusades vs Stalin, both were very far away from what Christianity and Atheism are supposed to mean.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 08, 2012 12:02 PM

GunFred, Elodin is actually making a big mistake, when he cites the decision of the Supreme Court.
The decision of the Supreme Court has the background, that atheists have been DISADVANTAGED - if I remember correctly, a PRISONER sued, because people who followed certain religions would get all kinds of benefits and privileges because of it (for example, getting time for prayers and so on), he, as an atheist did NOT get.

This went at last to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court, that Atheism as a religious characterization is to be considered as a religion FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES OF society to avoid discrimination of atheists, which means, that atheists would, for example given "prayer time" as well (even though they don't pray).

This does NOT mean, that the Supreme Court said atheism IS a religion. It just ruled that people adherring to atheism are to be treated as if it was a religion in all practical purposes to avoid discrimination.

To give an example, if SMOKERS were allowed a 5-minute break each hour for smoking, a non-smoker might sue to get the same pause because otherwise non-smokers would be discriminated. In this case the rule of the Supreme Court would have been that not-smoking would have to be considered as a special form of smoking for all practical purposes to avoid discrimination (non-smokers getting a break as well for non-smoking no cigarette).

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GunFred
GunFred


Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
posted March 08, 2012 12:04 PM
Edited by GunFred at 12:11, 08 Mar 2012.

"To say "God does not exist" is a statement of faith for which there is less evidence that the statement "God exists." The US courts have correctly ruled atheism to be a religion. Atheists have no evidence for their cornerstone dogmas, they merely take them by faith."

Who gave the US courts the right to decide that? US? Even if you called atheism faith then there is still the difference on how people aquire that faith. A good christian trust an over 1000 years old book with its share of questionable texts and written by people with an agenda. A good atheist, as people already explained, decide what to believe according to what seems more likely to be true and can change their belief unlike a christian who either believe what has already been decided by other christians  or is no real christian  at all. Of course atheists has to believe in scientists and other people just like theists but as said, the difference is in the information aquirement method.

"Science does not lend credence to the position atheists have traditionally held until recently (that the universe is eternal) nor to the idea that the universe could produce itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing. Atheism is in no way more "scientific" than any other religion. In fact it is less in harmony with "known" science than say Judaism or Christianity."

"Oh, comments that religion is not about seeking truth are untrue. Christianity certainly emphasizes a search for truth."
As said many times by me and others, christianity is hardly a truth seeking religion since the truth has already been decided.

"A lot of people have been decieved into thinking God does not exist and dismiss every experience others have. As a Pentecostal I have had many "close encounters" with God."


History clearly shows that people are not to be trusted in cases like these. Even if there were a good bunch of reals among the fakes, it would mean that either all real ones are from one single religion or dispersed among all religion. Would a muslim claim that the other real ones are just misunderstanding god? A christian or hindu has just as much claim on the opposite as the muslim has.

"Truth does mean something. 2+3=5. That is true. Truth is not just a concept. What is true is true regardless of your perception that it is true or untrue.

We have already seen that scientists are not always forthcoming with information that is counter to whatever sacred theories they hold to be true and that they are not beyond falsifying data.

Religion is seeking truth about the world around us, what is within us, the purpose of the world, the purpose of us individually and as a community, meeting the needs of our fellow man, discovering what God wants and expects from us, ect."


I agree with JJ on the 2+3=5 thing. The math I am relearning in extra classes right now(because I failed the first time(I suck)) is like religion to me. It seems to be senseless without logic.

Edit: This time I accidently lost some I had written on the edit and then posted it as a new post. I fail so much right now that I am not even going to bother correcting myself for now and ask a curious question instead.
Has the US more atheists or christians?
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 08, 2012 12:11 PM

Elodin's Supreme Court example is just a red herring - if he understands what it means, or just a lack of understanding how the judicial system functions. No court (or law system in broader terms) gives a damn if the atheism is a religion or not, what it cares about is if certain rules, rights, etc. can be applied to certain people. If one of the conditions to apply a rule a, right, etc. to a person is to put him in certain category without which he'll be disadvantaged before the law or his case will present a gap in the system, then he'll be put in that category or a new category will be made. This has nothing to do with the atheists' beliefs, it's all about the atheists' position in the society as far as the law is concerned.

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GunFred
GunFred


Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
posted March 08, 2012 12:22 PM

Quote:
What annoys me is when I see "debates" like Crusades vs Stalin, both were very far away from what Christianity and Atheism are supposed to mean.


The crusades wins BIG TIME because it gives alot of inspiration to the fantasy genre and the crusades had Arn.

Stalin is just evil, boring, depressing and his action are still fresh in history. He sucks...
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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 08, 2012 12:31 PM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 12:32, 08 Mar 2012.

in medieval times there wasn't much knowledge about the world and what God wants... but joe and adolf have no excuse for what they did.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 08, 2012 01:00 PM

The medieval people had just the same knowledge about what God wants as the people nowadays - none (apart from what is written in the Bible which, sadly, is a subject of interpretation). And nobody has ever needed to know something about the world to start a killing spree.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 08, 2012 01:33 PM

yeah  even if they did know God doesn't want them to fight for Jeruslaem as christians, it wasn't exactly their love for Jesus that made them go there and kill...

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bixie
bixie


Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
posted March 08, 2012 01:38 PM

can I just interject a possible hypothesis?

can we maybe consider that stalin did what he did because he was a vicious little thug who was paranoid about losing power both from within his own country and from external forces, and this, in turn, has NOTHING to do with his atheist?

because if we can't, I don't suppose you guys mind me talking about the Lords resistance army and their murder, rape, child abduction and slavery, ok?


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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 08, 2012 02:02 PM

What did you think I meant?

Those crusaders weren't so very Christian ( say they know Him but don't keep his command to love) and Stalin didn't do what he did because he was against religion or anything just for himself to have power.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 08, 2012 05:59 PM

about stalinism, I only talked about the cult to Stalin. It doesn't make any more sense than to believe in a god.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 08, 2012 06:18 PM

Back to the original question, sometimes the design isn't that intelligent, so I doubt that chaos wasn't involved in it too.

I wish natural selection applied to today's population

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted March 09, 2012 06:49 AM

Quote:
natural selection


Darwin used the Bible! If natural selection, the world would be a mere black or deaf. It may not be as Hitler or good gene also dogs are artifical selection. I believe that Homo families were people, not human monkey! People were Hitler and kill to all Homo families. Australopithecus should be monkey family, I don't know how the Australopithecus looks at the Homo, but a long debate. When Bible the place said: "Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me." - Genesis 4:14. Like Adam and Eve also have had other people etc as much as!
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 09, 2012 07:14 AM

And in English?

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted March 09, 2012 08:13 AM

Quote:
And in English?


Language is also means of language! Is the original Hebrew!?

Hm I have bad English. I wasn't diligent at school. I use Google translator, dictionary and I write also in itself English. If you meant!

Ponder!
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