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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Intelligent Design / Creationism
Thread: Intelligent Design / Creationism This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
GunFred
GunFred


Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
posted March 09, 2012 08:42 AM

You could not be more wrong! There is SCIENTIFIC PROOF that humans evolved from humans. Homer Simpsons!..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinartman/3862854804/
http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/45786/detail/

Americans could also be considered apes from a more international perspective.
____________

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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted March 09, 2012 11:03 AM

Quote:
Google translator



____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 09, 2012 12:43 PM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 12:52, 09 Mar 2012.

Moses couldn't have written it with scientific terms, even if such words existed in the ancient language no one would ever understand it, not even him. So the book of Genesis tells the truth about creation, but with a lot of symbolism.

That is, if we accept that it is indeed divinely inspired.

Also remember that most of the OT pertains to the time period and specifically to Isreal, never intended for the whole world.

Also some humans are so much like their primitive ancestors that it's hard not to believe it.

as Rene Descartes said,
Quote:
I think, therefore I am.


Yeah nothing to do with the subject of this topic but it's a something most humans should remember.

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Falconian
Falconian


Adventuring Hero
posted March 09, 2012 11:13 PM

Creationism is a long-abandoned primitive theory here in Europe, but we studied it back in the university and I even made a paper on it.

First and foremost, the flaw relies in the word "creationism" and its fundamental concept of creation.
We have plenty, pretty much unlimited evidence that nothing can be completely destroyed nor anything can be created out of nothing.
Every single material in the existence is a result of either a tranformation or a rection of another pre-existing material.
Now since Creationism is completely based on the fact the universe, this planet and us -need- to be created from nothing, and seeing as this whole assiome has every evidence proving the opposite, the theory itself is already invalid.

Secondly, if we assume the only way of the planet and/or humans to be existing is the creation from another being, then we create an endless loop of impossibility.
This loop is: if god created us then who created god?
If someone created him then that one being needs to be created, as well as that one who created him, etc, infinitely.
If instead god always existed then "the universe always existed" is also true, which makes the existence of god unnecessary, as if everything always existed there is no need for god to create all this.

It's very unlikely that any theory will continue to be taken into consideration after such big disprovals.
Infact, in Europe it's been widely abandoned and even the religions here consider it a myth.
Therefore, this leads me to think creationism is just a result of a certain aspect of the American culture (and some others as well, but mostly American).
It's no news that Americans, being a culture who had to emerge from colonialism and other oppressive occurrences, always relied on patriottism, strong beliefs and the general need of feeling higher, better and stronger than others, the centre of the world, etc.

As such, it is inevitable that some of them, under the influence of this typical culture, will not accept that we are living beings no different to other species and so is our purpose, our beginning and our end.
They were taught they are superior beings and think they deserve a better ending and beginning, and even an higher purpose than every other specie, so they are likely to bond with a theory which states they are the centre of the attention of the universe and the most important thing in it.

Whereas religion is an efficient answer for the inner need for a purpose, a reason, or simply calm people's fears of the unknown and the death - thus serving a very human need - creationism is a purely egocentric, vanity theory which fortunately only finds supporters in a minority of the population.
Both can be dangerous if taken too seriously, but whereas most religions tendentially try to make a person more giving and pacifistic, creationism actually creates an army of mini-Hercules who think they are in the right to do anything just because.

Curiously enough though, in my career as a medic I've seen a lot of people die and most of them died an atheist.
I'm pretty scared of death myself to be honest, but since there is no chance I can get myself into believing I fall back on trying to live as best as I can.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 09, 2012 11:55 PM

<<Infact, in Europe it's been widely abandoned and even the religions here consider it a myth.>>

Don't generalise. Religion is not widely abandned in Europe, and maybe people just don't think that only "going to church" means believing.

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted March 10, 2012 12:16 AM

Quote:
<<Infact, in Europe it's been widely abandoned and even the religions here consider it a myth.>>

Don't generalise. Religion is not widely abandned in Europe, and maybe people just don't think that only "going to church" means believing.


I think is that religion has been a part of government for a long time.It has lost its shine because secularism in Europe.

In the US,religion has never been apart of the state.So religion is attractive,a possible alternative to the state. Its a simmilar situation in Russia.While formerly it was completely forbidden there,after 1989,religion was attractive and posed as an alternative the corruption there.

In reality I think that people got more educated and understand that there is no god for them that offers salvation.I think that in reality,without forcing people into religion,religion would have never been a thing the majority of people would believe.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 10, 2012 12:19 AM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 00:19, 10 Mar 2012.

What do you mean lost its shine? It's much more attractive for me that I have a free choice what to believe and how to express it.

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted March 10, 2012 01:45 AM

Quote:
What do you mean lost its shine? It's much more attractive for me that I have a free choice what to believe and how to express it.



Being free to choose has always been true.The problem was dying when people disagreed.

By losing its shine is that there is a better alternative to understanding life now than religion.Again,its an opinion,dont get angry.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted March 10, 2012 02:43 AM
Edited by Elodin at 02:47, 10 Mar 2012.

Quote:
TRUTH is still depending on the frame of reference



Sorry dude, but my simple example of a simple truth has proven you wrong. If I have 2 apples and then obtain 3 more apples I have 5 apples. That is truth. It does not matter if you are blind and have no hands to feel with I still have 5 apples. Your perception [of lack thereof] of my apples does not change the quantity of apples that I possess.

What is true is true regardless of your perception that it is true or untrue.


Quote:

Which means, that YOUR truth is, GOD is the truth, but since you BELIEVE that only, your truth is just an assumption. Sorry.



You assume that I can't know that God is the truth. You assumption is only an assumption.

Quote:

Quote:

Religion is seeking truth about the world around us, what is within us, the purpose of the world, the purpose of us individually and as a community, meeting the needs of our fellow man, discovering what God wants and expects from us, ect.
See above: Religion claims to already KNOW the truth - there is just one, and humans would try to steal a view on this or that aspect of it. This cannot be done in a scientifical way, because God is not well-defined; he is no object of scientific observation, investigation and experiment. He is OUTSIDE of the scientific way of GAINING KNOWLEDGE.



Errrrr....religion, or at least the religion of Christianity does not claim to possess all truth or that it can't discover any more truth than it does not possess. We are to constantly "strive" to know God more fully and to better grasp the paths he would have us to walk. Certainly, the "milk" of truth is easily digestible but the "meat" can be harder to digest and can only be appreciated by one who is not still a spiritual babe.

Yes, absolutely, science can't measure God. Science has no instruments that can detect spirits, and even if it did, God exists at every point in the space-time continuum and transcends it. Therefore there would be no variation in instrument readings with regard to God, so he would be undetectable by the instrument.

But he has not left himself without witness. Testimony of God is all around for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Those who lack such claim no other can see or hear but that does not change the sight or hearing of others.

Spiritual knowledge is there to be gained, but it is not gained by intellectual prowess but by revelation to the diligent who hunger for it.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 10, 2012 03:19 AM

Quote:
By losing its shine is that there is a better alternative to understanding life now than religion.Again,its an opinion,dont get angry.


that's not the only reason, and probably not even the main. the society of consumption is probably a much bigger threat to religions than science. as well as sectarism, giving a bad image of religions.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 10, 2012 08:04 AM

Quote:
Quote:
TRUTH is still depending on the frame of reference



Sorry dude, but my simple example of a simple truth has proven you wrong. If I have 2 apples and then obtain 3 more apples I have 5 apples. That is truth. It does not matter if you are blind and have no hands to feel with I still have 5 apples. Your perception [of lack thereof] of my apples does not change the quantity of apples that I possess.

What is true is true regardless of your perception that it is true or untrue.

Ah, the naivity.
If you have 2 apples and then obtain 3 more apples, that is KNOWLEDGE. In TRUTH, however, "you" "have" a number of "objects" defined as "apples", that house a sizable number of germs and bacteria, even though they are actually just a specific collection of molecules, which are a collection of atoms, which are a collection of protons, neutrons and electrons, which are a collection of quarks or maybe not.
"Apple" is also a generic term for a specific kind of fruit that comes in many sorts, so even your knowledge is pretty superficial.

And that is not even touching the fact that you may just phantasize about having apples - or yourself and your existence: you may just be dreaming. "You" may be an illusion, the apples may be illusions as well.

Strangely enough that should be clear to you as a believer in an absolute being: There is only ONE TRUTH, and that's the truth of GOD. Your apples are just dust in the wind.

In other words: YOU THINK, that what is true is true, but only because you believe in God. If you wouldn't, you'd have to admit that you didn't know there was anything that is really "TRUE" (as in, independently of all frame of reference): TRUTH is an inherently absolute term.

Think about the show of a magician. Imagine a child or a naive human watching it. What would be the truth of what he was seeing? Could he actually discover THE TRUTH? And even if he became part of the show, "assisting" the magician as one of the audience - would it be "true" what he was seeing, thinking, experiencing? And did he have a chance to discover THE TRUTH without actually completely disassembling the whole stage, the clothing of the magician, even the contents of his mouth, each and everything, by GAINING KNOWLEDGE? And could he be sure to know THE TRUTH, THE FULL TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, before he had collected every scrap of knowledge possible?

Quote:
Quote:

Which means, that YOUR truth is, GOD is the truth, but since you BELIEVE that only, your truth is just an assumption. Sorry.

You assume that I can't know that God is the truth. You assumption is only an assumption.
You can't prove your belief, that's why it keeps there: it's YOUR truth. Your very own PERSONAL truth. Where it leaves that strictly defined realm, it ceases to be a truth, but becomes an assumption that has the same quality as every other statement not backed by evidence, for example, Marsians have abducted you twice in your life and made you clearvoyant. Which means, that I do not need to assume anything, because what you say never leaves the realm of the purely fantastic, since your words are not backed by any evidence.

Quote:
Quote:
Religion claims to already KNOW the truth - there is just one, and humans would try to steal a view on this or that aspect of it.

Quote:
Errrrr....religion, or at least the religion of Christianity does not claim to possess all truth or that it can't discover any more truth than it does not possess. We are to constantly "strive" to know God more fully and to better grasp the paths he would have us to walk. Certainly, the "milk" of truth is easily digestible but the "meat" can be harder to digest and can only be appreciated by one who is not still a spiritual babe.
That's just gibberish for what I said: the difference is the result of your confusion of terms: There is just ONE truth: God. That's what some religions claim. The constant "striving" you talk about is what I said: trying to steal a view on this or that aspect of it (that is, God, or THE TRUTH).
Of course, there are those who try to sell things as truth - the Bible and certain interpretations of it, demands that are supposed to be god's demands and so on. You know that as well - you believe in a specific branch of Christianity and you think that others err where they differ from yours.
Certainly, why you and your denomination should be nearer to the truth than the others - that's objectively an open question; subjectively it goes back to your very own personal truth and "knowledge of God", and I'm not contesting that in any way. It's just not valid for everything but you.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 10, 2012 09:02 AM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 09:03, 10 Mar 2012.

Yes, the Bible is "the truth". For me. But I am in no way limited to it. And I don't see what's the problem as long as I don't force anyone into it.

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted March 10, 2012 08:59 PM

Quote:
<<Infact, in Europe it's been widely abandoned and even the religions here consider it a myth.>>

Don't generalise. Religion is not widely abandned in Europe, and maybe people just don't think that only "going to church" means believing.


Pretty much this, lots of European countries have their own local bible belts. Or.... pretty much not this, because the religious are a minorety, which is only "respected" due history.
Religion is widely left behind, but a minority practice religion. Now... the religions in growth is the new age religions, either be it a branch of a existing religion with more about "faith" and forgetting its roots and taking with them only the core concepts.

Quote:
Quote:
TRUTH is still depending on the frame of reference



Sorry dude, but my simple example of a simple truth has proven you wrong. If I have 2 apples and then obtain 3 more apples I have 5 apples. That is truth. It does not matter if you are blind and have no hands to feel with I still have 5 apples. Your perception [of lack thereof] of my apples does not change the quantity of apples that I possess.

What is true is true regardless of your perception that it is true or untrue.


But what is true also stops being true if you take a proper look at it.
Lets take your 5 apples, is that really 5 apples worth of 5 quanties of applies? One might be a bit more meager, and perhaps only worth 0.6 apples, and some might be worth a bit more. So you have 3-7 units of apples worth of apples there, regardless of if its 5 apples.

Quote:
You assume that I can't know that God is the truth. You assumption is only an assumption.


So I assume I have eyes that see more color than normal people, so I claim that. Would you believie me?
Would you belivie a black duck exists if there has been spotted no such thing?
Why should I belivie there is some Sky Fairy who did stuff? I have seen nor felt no such thing with my myriad of senses, and it doesn't sound belivieable.
Even the Descartians look back at this, and because they don't like personal expeiences they gather them into statistics, and yet there is still no evidence present.
The only thing I know holds true is that I can think, but beyond that reality can be a dream. And why would I dream about a Sky Fairy or a Magic Unicorn or a shapeless eldritch abomination?


____________



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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 11, 2012 12:39 PM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 12:42, 11 Mar 2012.

del_diablo, I invite you to visit the Balkan nations (and us) and see that it's not really what you think...

oh and it's none of my my business but quote wars is not cool.

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted March 11, 2012 01:50 PM

Ah yes, Balkan, the special part of Europa that has been a warzone ever since the Ottmans discovered that Europeans somehow asked for help with their Christians enemies if they attempted to enter.
Balkan is a special place after all. With hostile people. And we blame history.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted March 11, 2012 03:27 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 15:36, 11 Mar 2012.

Quote:
Ah yes, Balkan, the special part of Europa that has been a warzone ever since the Ottmans discovered that Europeans somehow asked for help with their Christians enemies if they attempted to enter.
Balkan......

We have dismissed that claim...

LoL,could not resist saying that.


watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-RGN21TSGk
Geeorge Carlin on the ten commandments.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dup6xkvj1S0
A long video. Its quite witty.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 11, 2012 06:23 PM

it was these hostile nations that defended the precious western lands from the ottomans, like it or not

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 11, 2012 09:05 PM

The Balkans are full of the most don't-give-a-**** Christians in Europe, probably on the world too, some of them could put the atheists to shame. There is one devoted minority, sure, but the vast majority looks at the religion from purely national perspective, i.e. the local Christianity is just another form of nationalism, not to mention that it's half-paganism. The Balkan people are fond of the tradition, not particularly the religion and again the thanks go mostly to the Ottomans.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 11, 2012 09:08 PM

I am quite the opposite. I don't care about traditions for the most part but like to embrace the real ideas of Christianity.

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GunFred
GunFred


Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
posted March 12, 2012 11:47 AM

This George Carlin guy is awesome. Never have anyone been so hilarious and vulgar while being so right.
____________

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