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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 28, 2012 10:54 AM |
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Random Unit deployment question.
Am I the only one bothered by random unit placement on the battlefield? It seems it does not care about hero slots at all.
Should it not be like in Heroes 3?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 28, 2012 01:39 PM |
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If what they say is true and they have been monitoring the feedback, you can expect this to be fixed in an upcoming patch at some point in the future.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 28, 2012 03:07 PM |
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ok until then I will put it in my list 
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted February 28, 2012 05:49 PM |
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I dunno, I like how it is right now. Why exactly is it better the HoMM3 style? So you have some measure of control over it even when you don't have tactics? I think it's better the way it is now, the point of tactics is to give you control over it. If you already have some measure of control tactics looses some of it's interest, a lot if you consider all you could be getting instead. Also that makes it so you can't just judge an ennemy's formation by looking at them before hand and placing your own troops accordingly, hoping that he doesn't have tactics.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 28, 2012 06:16 PM |
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This was one of the things in H3 that made some difference between payers. The ones that know how to deploy their armies and the ones that did not. And I am talking here about creeping mainly.
Tactics was also in H3 exactly like in H6 and it did not exclude some control of your units order of deployment. What is in H6 is chaotic and changes with the slightest formation modification.
But again opinions may vary thats why I've included this as a separate item in the H6 voting wish list.
Even if it will not be of any use to them now, it's a learned lesson (i hope) to developers. Listen to experience players opinion carefully and do your best when creating the game mechanics, because once its released it is hard to implement. What I want to say with this is that if the creatures would have been deployed like in H3 or H5 in the first place people would have liked it and I really doubt we would have had a conversation about making that random.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted February 28, 2012 07:04 PM |
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Well here's the thing. Unit deployment isn't random. Neither in Heroes 3, nor in Heroes 6.
In Heroes 3, units were deployed in the order you put them on your unit bar. Tactics gave you the ability to change that on "the eve of battle" so to speak.
In Heroes 6, like auto-tactics in Heroes 5 only not optional, the computer places your units in the formation it calculates is optimal/ best allround. Now the optimal formation changes when you add different units to your army, or your army takes losses. Again, tactics is there to allow you to redeploy your army. Because once you have tactics, you get the option to use auto-tactics and it gives you the default(what the computer "thinks" is optimal/ best alround).
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 28, 2012 07:18 PM |
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Quote:
I dunno, I like how it is right now. Why exactly is it better the HoMM3 style? So you have some measure of control over it even when you don't have tactics? I think it's better the way it is now, the point of tactics is to give you control over it. If you already have some measure of control tactics looses some of it's interest, a lot if you consider all you could be getting instead. Also that makes it so you can't just judge an ennemy's formation by looking at them before hand and placing your own troops accordingly, hoping that he doesn't have tactics.
Oh yes, it makes perfect sense for one army to deploy itself in a completely random manner without taking into account the orders of its commander(s), every military academy will teach you that. 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 28, 2012 07:20 PM |
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Why do you even have to waste a skill point to get the ability to deploy your army. God, it's a strategy game, and the Hero is supposed to be a war leader, it's downright lame that you don't have the default ability to deploy your troops - it both reduces game-play and it doesn't make sense.
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What will happen now?
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G0b1in
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 28, 2012 08:20 PM |
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well personaly i liked H5 tactics system the best of all games idk why they change that - along with initiative (wich was also best in H5 imo).
It's like they improved battle mechanics and then change it back to worse - makes no sense to me 
well i know opinions are diferent on this - but i see the logic in this system - if tactics work the way they do (in H6), then random (or "optimal") position is more logical - tactics would be realy lame way to spend your point if you could reorganize troops witouth them.
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Mithrandir
Hired Hero
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posted February 28, 2012 08:23 PM |
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Though this be madness... yet there's a method in it.
I mean, this seemingly random deployment ain't so random. Why? Because switching creatures (stacks) in army slots does change the army deployment - but it just does so in a very unpredictable way. It's simply more complicated and difficult to observe than it was in H3. Try it yourself, with some save/loads it will be very easy. See how the game places units, pick some from the opposite sides of the line, load, switch them and they should appear generally somewhere near the other stack's original position.
AFAIK, the army slot is generally linked to some area on the battlefield's starting lane. This area could be modified by number of stacks in your army and obstacles in the battlefield. However, this isn't all. Creatures have their own placing patterns which complicate things even more and determine their exact location on the battlefield, e.g. archers (except Marksmen) and support tend to go in the bottom lane, melee to the front lane, big units sometimes seem to avoid obstacles on lane 3 and so on. Some units like to stack up with others, some tend to be solitary. So in the end it's a pretty mess, but not random at all.
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English ain't my native language, sorry for any mistakes.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted February 28, 2012 08:38 PM |
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Edited by krs at 20:57, 28 Feb 2012.
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Quote:
Well here's the thing. Unit deployment isn't random. Neither in Heroes 3, nor in Heroes 6
I guess you are arguing about us using the term "random". Well I could replace that with "stupid" . However we call it, NWC in heroes 3 allowed you to have control of unit placement from slot order (and NWC saw that that was good). On the other hand in 6 you do not have any control over it.
Without tactics:
IN H3 you could:
- You could reach or (avoid being reached) in turn 1.
- You could corner your archers and prepare for fort.
- You could influence turn order on units with same speed.
In Heroes 6 an algorithm will deploy the units for you
- Because of its stupid placement the opposing units will reach you in turn 1
- It places sometimes archers in the middle and separates archers from fort.
- About turn order I cannot say anything since it is a complete mystery how units with the same initiative jump up and down on ATB.
With tactics.
- In Heroes 3 you had 8 slots for skills so you had to decide if its wort a slot for your faction.
- In Heroes 3 you had a chance not to be presented with tactics at all.
- In heroes 6 because of the lack of control it "forces" you to take it for every hero even if your faction does not really need it. And that as early as possible.
To me clear winner is H3-5 unit deployment style.
@Mithrandir It is in no way human predictable!
*edit Now that I thought about it a little more, it all comes from the zealous oversimplification of the game. The audience targeted with that, will for sure be challenged by manual unit deployment, will not make use of splitting stacks (at max a half/half split), will not fort around archers and will not steal retaliation with stacks of 1. It's sad that the series went that way  .
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted February 28, 2012 08:45 PM |
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Quote:
I guess you are arguing about us using the term "random". Well I could replace that with "stupid".
I am. Random has a very specific definition and I am a realy stickler for that kind of thing.
If you prefer that, go ahead.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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