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Heroes Community > Other Games Exist Too > Thread: Games are becoming labor.
Thread: Games are becoming labor. This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV
fauch
fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 25, 2012 04:53 PM

well, in FC2, they were supposed to be more powerful after each rank (I think there were 3 or 4 ranks for each classes)

then it also depends to player preference, but rank 1 weapons were outclassed by about every other weapons. (possible exceptions being the silenced sniper rifle (rank 1) which kills in one shot but is one of the hardest weapons to handle)

not that it was extremly hard to get decent weapons, but to be competitive, it was better to be high ranked in at least 2 or 3 classes which took a bit of time. and providing that you didn't choose weapons you aren't comfortable with.

in unranked matches, levelling was way faster, allowing you to hit rank 10 in 1h instead of, I dunno, 30 maybe. so it wasn't that bad if you realized you picked the wrong weapon.

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Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted April 25, 2012 05:05 PM

Worth of note is that FC2 is a single player focused game. The multiplayer was just an extra addition. In a single player game you often want to have more and more powerful weapons, and they just used the same weapons for the multiplayer, didn't they?
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fauch
fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 25, 2012 05:16 PM

yeah, but I don't remember if the weapons had the exact same characteristics in solo and in multi.

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 25, 2012 07:07 PM

CS also had "buy point advantage", but it never escalated the weapon scale apparently. I wonder if it adopted it from another game, or if CS is the source of the buy point system.

Then again, unbalanced multiplayer ports of a single player has been done before. I think a rather hillarous thing about the last 2 Jedi Knight games is how hillarous the weapons are, and its quite overlooked too. The pistol is too weak to kill anything, the stormtrooper assault rifle is the machinegun version of the pistol, the sniper is a snipe with a charge time, the wookie crossbow is basically the pistol on steroids, the Imperial Repeat is a heavyfire machinegun with a added capability to shoot a explosive, the 7th gun is a "EMP shooter" which is 100% useless except for having the fastest normal projectile, the 8th weapon is a extremely stylish shootgun and the 9th weapon is the rocket launcher. There is also trip mines, controlled explosive kits and grenades.
The hillarious part of the design is that the weapons are designed for something like Quake, just without the balance part, and nothing in the game moves at Quake speeds either(the weapons are designed for everything to have 3-4 times higher running speed).
Unbalanced multiplayer also tends to create the most fun, if nothing too severely overpowered.

I also wonder how Star Craft would have played out if you could build walls in Age of Empires style.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted April 25, 2012 07:12 PM

Quote:
CS also had "buy point advantage", but it never escalated the weapon scale apparently. I wonder if it adopted it from another game, or if CS is the source of the buy point system.

That was within a game and it didn't matter if you got fragged for 2-4 rounds or had a single good round, you'd always end up being able to afford the weapon of your choice, if you waited for it. Heck even in maybe a quarter of the games, you'd start with max money in stead of the standard 800 anyway.

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fauch
fauch


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Undefeatable Hero
posted April 25, 2012 09:31 PM

yeah, at least everyone else didn't start with the AWP while all you had was the glock...

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 25, 2012 09:55 PM

I really really don't agree with the "SC2 is only rush!!!" thing.
Yes, it is a different pace from the singleplayer but, you can easily counter a rush and stretch the game to higher tech if you want too.
There's loads of high level competive games that lasts till high tech.

The labour thing is also weird.
Yes, you probably need to play a lot if you want to be in the Starcraft 2 Master's League. But most people don't have that ambition and are happy progressing through lower leagues instead.

I don't really see the problem here.  
You don't play a game if it isn't fun to you.


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fauch
fauch


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Undefeatable Hero
posted April 27, 2012 07:50 PM

was the original point of the thread to prove anyone wrong?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 27, 2012 07:52 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 19:53, 27 Apr 2012.

Nope. It was a peaceful observation of mine - well, actually, I think the attitude of Avalon kinda proves my point about young, competitive people (which he considers himself to be) that are completely overboard with bad manners. In other words, that kind of flaming is almost a given in most competitive games, especially true for those team-based. Try dota or LoL when you're a newbie - you will be flamed to oblivion by those "competitive" people
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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted April 27, 2012 09:36 PM bonus applied by Doomforge on 27 Apr 2012.
Edited by B0rsuk at 21:53, 27 Apr 2012.

When it comes to competitive people, tribal instincts kick in. To make people hate one another it's enough to divide them into two groups. Literally. You don't have to suggest them anything, just split them and there will be aggression. There was a research that supported this.

Doomforge: I agree with you. Here's my spin.

There was a strong relationship between arcade machines and old computer games. Arcade machines were coin-operated, and to produce a decent profit they had to be rather punishing. You wouldn't earn much by making an arcade machine with causal, relaxed game that is easy to play. One person would occupy the machine for only 1 coin.

Games were often ported from arcade machines to computers or vice versa. Arcade machines were widespread, so design principles from these games felt like something natural. Additionally, in those days computers were mostly used by geeks. Geeks are problem solvers, they often solve puzzles for fun and like challenge. It was challenging just to operate a computer, even 8 bit machines had their quirks and PC's running DOS (then called IBM PC until they were reverse-engineered and their monopoly was broken) required a lot of technical knowledge. Easily discouraged people were weeded out.

--------------------------

To make computers more widespread, they chose to make them as easy to use as possible. This allowed easily discouraged people in. Eventually, publishers realize the most profit is to be made with games anyone can play and win.

That's how the idea to reward gamers for patience came to be. Not reflexes, not skill, not strategy, not creativity. That's too demanding. On the other hand, anyone can spend lots of time on a game, let's reward people for that.
-------------------

Doomforge, you simply need to be more selective about which games you play. Largest games (most AAA games) are invariably the most risk-averse. Look for medium-sized or indie games. http://rockpapershotgun is a good PC-only review site, which reviews anything from pixelated or ASCII games to AAA blockgusters. It can broaden your horizons if you don't already read it. And the forums are unusually civilized. One thing I like about this site is they don't use point scores ! Only words. Reading comprehension required. If you like a game's description and reviewers impressions, check a game out.

I don't have much time now, so I'll just post this Quake 100% kill speedrun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhzXKMqZBBc
Look at those comments ! Many modern gamers accuse these guys of aimbots. It seems they can't comprehend a game can be played at this level. Old games were fast and demanded fast reflexes.

And Starcraft is not a strategy game. It has more similarities with playing a guitar. Not only that, but there are players who actually play a guitar before SC sessions to warm up their fingers. Those who don't... have you ever seen a replay with a player "glitching" - moving his mouse cursor like a retard ? To warm up ? They are warming up their fingers.
Why guitar ? Because Starcraft is about memorization and execution of known sequences. Train by repeating, repeating, repeating. X and second Y.

to be continued.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 27, 2012 10:27 PM

Interesting post, B0rsuk.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted April 27, 2012 10:59 PM

I hate the LoL community, but I love the game. D:

It's usually better to just play with friends in those games.

But this is just the deal with team-based battle arena thingies. This mindset of "my team is bringing me down, so I must flame them." Anyway, I think the community is about on the level of most big shooter games, though. And I reckon LoL is more intuitive than DotA (the design is more about action, rather than burden of knowledge, so the design removed deny-mechanics and mechanic that have no counterplay or have counterintuitive play), but you get this as you play.

Only bad thing is smurfs and people who yell a lot. ie the community.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 30, 2012 09:17 AM

Gaming was still hipster fashion back in 1997. Its really that simple. Call of Duty is still a 2003 game, and it did not reach popular worthship on the first installment. So you need to go forth in time, perhaps 2004-2005 before you could actually get properly sponsed tournaments, and gamers would get properly sponsored.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 30, 2012 11:53 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 11:54, 30 Apr 2012.

Exactly. In 1997 some hipster underground tournament doesn't make e-sport a thing we see it today. No sponsors, no press, no world-wide attention. E-sport and the related culture started growing after first WCG, but it was still small. The shape of it today is relatively new.
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Shyranis
Shyranis


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 30, 2012 03:50 PM
Edited by Shyranis at 15:51, 30 Apr 2012.

Turn based games tend to be the best IMHO.

Much like Adrius said, because you can adjust your strategy etc.

I do enjoy some other types but I am not a fanatic.
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fauch
fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 30, 2012 03:58 PM

you can probably adjust your strategy on a lot of games. but that supposes to not always play the same map you know so well that you can just play mechanically.

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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted April 30, 2012 04:07 PM

That's the awesome thing about e-sports, you're not the one that has to do all the labor, that's the progamer's job.
You just have to watch and enjoy.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 30, 2012 05:06 PM

Well, I do admit watching those guys is fun at times. Heck, I even watched WC3 top players at WCG while eating popcorn
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