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| Thread: Games are becoming labor. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 22, 2012 09:52 PM |
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Individual skill matters very little in Dota. That's why I began to hate it 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted April 22, 2012 09:57 PM |
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So much h8. h8 h8 h8.
I've played 2 different MMORGs significantly and enjoyed each of them for a time. Just because your relaxation time doesn't involve putting your brain and/or reflexes on overdrive doesn't make it inferior entertainment. It might even make it more ideal. There are people that become obsessive about it (though there are very few activities in life that don't become a bad thing if you go too far with them) but there's nothing wrong with chilling out to a game that's devoid of skill. MMORGs are also great for playing a game while at the same time enjoying some quality e-social time with a few buddies that you're playing with. Trying doing that in the middle of an RTS/FPS/Fighting game.
"So how is that new job working out for you?"
*blizzardboy has been eliminated*
"Oh ****."
Even over Skype or such it's kind of distracting to be talking while you're in the middle of a cluster**** of violence and mayhem. MMORPG make a great, mellow atmosphere of gaming & chatting. It's your own fault if you're playing the game by yourself at night while camping at a high-yield exp spot while quietly muttering the lyrics of "How Could This Happen To Me?" to yourself.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 22, 2012 10:01 PM |
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While I don't enjoy games as Diablo or WoW (ok, Diablo feeling was great, but without 24/24 bot it sucks / WoW is for mongoloids), games as Anno 1404 or Civilization 4 successfully keep you awake, without any repetitive tasks.
Anno 1404 is very stressing and very rewarding. Civ is immortal, mainly due to exceptional mods.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 22, 2012 10:05 PM |
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Well, as for Civ 4, to reach Deity level and win at it with big success rate, you have to do a lot of labor, unfortunately. Re-playing the same first 100 turns to get it just about right, watching endless deity games on youtube and analyzing your own games - you won't get far without it.
It's unfortunately a lot of labor, simply because Deity gives so much bonuses to AI's production and science you basically have to use exploits to beat it (and exploit it's poor "intelligence" of course..),however knowing how & when to use the exploits requires hours of training = labor.
Of course one can play on difficulty settings that are less demanding & win without doing labor, but... yeah. Wanna win on Deity, you have to work for it.
If the game's Deity (and Immortal) wasn't about giving ridiculous bonuses to AI, but instead it made AI smarter, no labor would be required.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 22, 2012 10:08 PM |
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This is valid for old games as well. Not Heroes, which has poor programmed AI, but games as Imperialism 1/2 or Master of Orion require a lot of micromanagement if you want to beat the highest difficulty.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 22, 2012 10:15 PM |
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Yes it is true. A lot of games does that (and for strategy games it's pretty typical: unfair AI advantage forces players to resort to exploits since "fair" gameplay no longer works. i hate that model of "difficulty").
However the thread isn't about games. It's about gamers. They are taking gaming way too serious. They don't just play&beat games: they work in games. It's especially true for Dota (on the forums, almost anybody will tell a new player that becoming average takes a lot of work)
I find that mentality puzzling. Sure, getting good at a game is fine. But it should be byproduct of the player having fun with it. On a lot of boards, I see people that just want to be good at the game, and working for it, with good ol' fun simply evaporating...
Where's the sense in that? Those are, after all, games. Work is something you do for a living, not in a video game.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 22, 2012 10:21 PM |
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Quote:
instead it made AI smarter
Usually AI is not very smart, thus we prefer multiplayer to single. But still, your remark is a bit biased (is true of course, but...).
Take for example a game where we all agree AI is not smart: Heroes. Now play a random map without any saving or reload -except if leaving obviously-. The game suddenly will not be so easy and AI can even prove some exploits, if you can handle them. A lot of players use intensively the autosave then complain about poor AI. Same thing could be applied on lower levels at Civilization, it is not that bad.
I remember old games where we could only save at specific locations: those games were harder to handle.
I agree that youth addiction to video games is scary. But probably this will run into parental and modern society off tops if we search the cause.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted April 22, 2012 10:28 PM |
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Quote:
Take for example a game where we all agree AI is not smart: Heroes. Now play a random map without any saving or reload -except if leaving obviously-. The game suddenly will not be so easy and AI can even prove some exploits, if you can handle them. A lot of players use intensively the autosave then complain about poor AI. Same thing could be applied on lower levels at Civilization, it is not that bad.
I've played Rome total war without loading back at all, I used load back if 'I' (my general) died, which is annoying when my family is full of imbeciles or if I lost a very strategicly important position due to a silly mistake (again sometimes this is my general dying)
Point is, I usually end up completely dominating and decimating everyone (most annoyingly with the same tactic) over and over again.
When I refused to load back after snowups, that's when the game got really interesting.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted April 22, 2012 10:29 PM |
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what blizzardboy said.
I've been playing a MMO) called Haven and Hearth - the most hardcore MMO game I encountered
-you have one life
-the combat system that requires studying it first on the internet to use at the most basic level
-the entire map is a PvP zone
-the russians have a secret underground fortress, their leaders have dedicated entire villages to produce experience materials for them and they regularly sweep the land for all but the most fortified villages
I AM NOT KIDDING
Yes, it was a chore to maintain
Yes, I hated it sometimes
but at the same time we were playing it as a 5 man group, constantly on voice chat and it was tons of fun mixed with fear, excitement and a sense of achievemnt to have survived another day.
I wouldn't play it again though, it takes too much time.
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none of my business.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 22, 2012 10:59 PM |
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That sounds oddly similar to the Fallout 2 mmo.......
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 23, 2012 06:01 PM |
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My gaming interests have a changed a lot in the last decade. Along with a lot less available time has come a desire for games I can play happily in small bits. I've gravitated almost completely to console games, also, because there's no longer a need to constantly have an updated gaming system.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 23, 2012 11:07 PM |
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Anybody ever thought that games are a way of producing or stimulating dopamine production?
Would not something like that create addiction?
When we play games,we do labor with set rules.By accomplishing those rules we feel awarded because our reward system triggers.
It has been shown through experimentation that there is a certain part of our brain responsible for the feeling of being rewarded.
In a sense,games stimulate that part.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted April 23, 2012 11:09 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 23:15, 23 Apr 2012.
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Well of course, everything that can create pleasure can and will most likely also create addiction.
Same thing with exercise, food, sex...
Games can be particularly enjoyable when we're so focused that our mind goes into flow mode. Of course, that can only happen with games that are truly challenging to your mind, mindless labour won't create flow.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 23, 2012 11:32 PM |
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Quote:
Games can be particularly enjoyable when we're so focused that our mind goes into flow mode. Of course, that can only happen with games that are truly challenging to your mind, mindless labour won't create flow.
Well said. And e-sports promotes mindless labor.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted April 24, 2012 12:07 AM |
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Edited by Adrius at 00:13, 24 Apr 2012.
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Devil May Cry is a game that creates massive flow for me... when you go into stylish mode and are so concentrated on being creative with your moves to keep the stylish points up... and it's all so visually rewarding on the screen.
Guitar Hero too, that really works when ya got that Metallica solo going ^^
Modern shooter games does this well too with their badges and accolades and what not... you're practically showered with rewards for every kill. Really makes the killstreaks enjoyable.
Burnout is one of the few racing games that nails flow for me... you go so insanely fast and there can be random obstacles each lap, you really need to concentrate to keep the speed up. That feel when you cross the finish line, lower the controller and lean back after 5 minutes of complete and utter concentration... gaming orgasm.
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Flow is just one of many ways to enjoy a game though. For example, I really enjoy just sitting down with fighting games in training mode and just brainstorming combo ideas. Relaxing and keeps the mind occupied.
Or just strolling through the enviroments in a Bethesda game... enjoying the landscape.
I personally can't find any enjoyment whatsoever in just "training" or farming for items, but I guess that's a personal thing since I can't really give any arguments as for why I find staring at water in Skyrim that much more rewarding than doing your 50th magic find run.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 24, 2012 12:52 AM |
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Edit: Seems my post didn't end up where I intended it to. I'll post it for you guys anyways, but prepare yourself for a confusing rant.
/Edit
I thought about something similar a while ago, and I'm not sure I've managed to finish thinking about it what with everything else in my life going on, but I shall try to make this a post of worth.
I was basically thinking about gamers as a group and their evolution and future. When I was a kid I was already a gamer. I played Heroes, Red Alert (the first one) and Baldurs Gate on the computer and before that we had a NES on which I played Zelda 2 (the "weird one", yeah), Mario, Battle Toads and all that good jazz. I was pretty much the only gamer in my school class and was pretty much bound to end up a nerd already back then. The alone part is kind of what I'm talking about. I was the only gamer of 20 kids. When I was a teenager it was kind of common and I guess there was a gamer or two, but I noticed that most of them where kind of new to gaming. Playing the newer games only. Playing WC3 but never touched WC2 or Starcraft. People playing Diablo 2 but not knowing anything of the original, and there was just this single guy who knew about HoMM and he only played HoMM3 (and he sucked, btw). Gaming back then and before was an alternative interest. If you were a gamer you were a nerd and an outcast almost automatically. I'm not old and I can sense these tendencies from the generation before me. Now a vast majority of teenage boys are gamers and while it might be prejudice talking, I'll just go on and say that teenage boys are probably the most stupid and a very selfrighteous group of people in todays westerner society. This is the majority of gamers today and may be the reason that old franchise remakes are selling so well (First CoD was released 2003 and now there's ~8 of them and a bunch of expansion as well as some console exclusives, I believe); First of all people haven't played the older ones and the majority of the customers are rather stupid and immature. I know, I know. There are a lot of gamers that are not stupid and fourteen year old, young men in general are a bit daft and VERY self righteous. I'm going to lie to myself; I am a self righteous young man, though I'll leave daft for others to judge.
The problem here is that gaming is suddenly a mainstream and casual hobby that you don't need to be dedicated to. You can be a gamer without being a total nerd. You can be a gamer with a normative social sphere and with normative interests. The interesting part is that most of this group is now 13-20 years old males and there's an interesting thing about teenage boys; they don't stay teenage boys!
I think that we might see an increase in more difficult and in general "better" games, moving away from franchise milking and dumbing down. I can see some signs already when games like T:A is a becoming a popular shooter instead of games like CoD, CS and TF2 and even Legend of Grimrock seems to be seeing some success and indie developers are being hailed with praise for just taking tiny steps outside of the box! Perhaps this stupid target demographic is starting to grow up and mature!
Or I could just point to hardware: the dumbed down games are console games. PC gamers are the advanced users. This is especially true when looking back some years, when the original Playstation was a standard console and the X-Box was just about to come along. They were normal computers, but with low end performance and dumbed down operating systems, but with games trying to imitate PC games. Of course the games were dumbed down and simplified! They wouldn't work otherwise! As the consoles grew in popularity, so did the dumbed down games. Obviously this wears off on the PC games and we end up where we are today, but this could also explain the increase in the popularity of "good/innovative" games. The consolles of today are old. The PS3 is eight years and the hardware is limiting game developers a lot now! They can't just release CoD 4.6 with imrpoved graphics and a new vehicle, because the consolles wouldn't allow it! Instead they would have to improve and experiment with actual content in the game if they wanted to make another game, and competitors really have to think of something new, since a CoD copy with equal graphics and the same content wouldn't sell at all. The limiting hardware is forcing devs to come up with new snow!
Or perhaps it's the new things going on in publishing that's changing the commercial gaming market! No longer do the large publishers roam completely free! Games like Minecraft and Braid manages to succeed without a large publisher and with steam opening up for smaller games like Minecraft, Legends of Grimrock and Magicka publishers might want to rethink their usual way of spewing out low quality franchise games. Quality is of course secondary with a secure oligopoly, but now that it's been threatened they might rethink. Perhaps it's just retailing changing with commoners having access to internet connections fast enough to download games (though that has been the case for some time now) so that digital retailing is possible and popular. Perhaps retailers like Game were holding publishers back (while this is the case, it's only true to a minor degree).
Hey! This isn't were I was heading with my post at all! How did I end up here? Well... uhm... seems I'm not done thinking about it yet.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 24, 2012 01:04 AM |
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Quote:
My gaming interests have a changed a lot in the last decade. Along with a lot less available time has come a desire for games I can play happily in small bits. I've gravitated almost completely to console games, also, because there's no longer a need to constantly have an updated gaming system.
Lets see:
-2006 rig
-changed GFX card in 2010
-Runs everything i throw at it
So what upgrading? Thats 1 upgrade in 6 years. ironically upgrade acquired via a more professional version of dumpster looting. Then again, it will fall flat whenever the new console generation is out, but so is the consoles of this gen by then.
Also got lucky: Turns out that the CPU is no longer a vital component, if its strong enough. Otherwise it would have been a expensive upgrade.
[/nitpick]
Shares: Good rant 
Lets take a look at the essence: The problem IS gaming going mainstream, but the decentralization of game distribution might have solved that problem already, with Steam and Kickstarter and various ways to port things to the PS Store and the Xbox Arcade.
I don't think there is a way to cure the "blockbuster companies", and they will most likely remain as a monolith in gaming, like Hollywood to the movies. However, they will rarely make anything original. Once in a while they will aquire a old IP and rehash it, , if its close enough to the current "best selling formula".
Currently the keywords are: "FPS", "Combat", "Shiny GFX", "Long cinematic story". The exact keywords will change, some of the cashcow franchises might even die if the change is too large, but during the 1990s the keyword was "2D platformer", "Action", "Hard", and perhaps one or two more, and look how that changed the marked when the keywords changed.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted April 24, 2012 01:11 AM |
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Edited by Adrius at 01:11, 24 Apr 2012.
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The PS3 and 360 has slowed down the hardware requirements quite considerably yeah...
Built my rig in 2010 and I'm running pretty much the same stuff still. Can handle everything from Skyrim to The Witcher 2.
Of course there are heavy hitters like Metro 2033 that REALLY show off what a PC can do... that one would probably bring my rig to its knees.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 24, 2012 01:26 AM |
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And then we have games like the Xenoblade for the Wii. What happens if you ignore the current gen gfx and just attempt to focus on good texture work and ambient light instead? And then we have minecraft, which per gfx is stylish, but its a sort of abomination if you compare it to realism.
Ergo: Realism is bad. Shiny non realistic GFX is good.
Metro 2033 is overrated. Its a tech demo, on a engine that likely didn't need to use that much resources to run smoothly. Same thing about Crysis,
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 24, 2012 05:05 AM |
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Quote:
-changed GFX card in 2010
Exactly.
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