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| Thread: Nival or BlackHole ??? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted May 08, 2012 04:34 AM |
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It really is difficult to say. Comparing Nival's finished product with Black Hole's finished product, it does seem as though Nival looks better. But I don't know that Nival's finished product, even, was up to the standards for what I had come to expect from the Heroes subfranchise.
What Black Hole did - at the direction of Ubisoft, mind you - was unfortunately not very good. Full of bugs, yes, but that's partly because they were fighting a deadline that they couldn't beat. But to me, the result was just something not very interesting.
What I did like better, though, was the art direction. There are some obvious holes, but on the whole it's clear that the artists for H6 were more skilled than the ones for H5.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 08, 2012 05:58 AM |
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Quote:
Nival big company? I certainly wouldn't say that judging from their output. Apart from Heroes V, they don't have a single major game bearing their name. And they certainly didn't do better with the patching of Heroes V than Black Hole did (while still alive) with Heroes VI.
They are, however, still in business, and do have over 200 employees, which okay is nothing compared to say Blizzard Entertainment or another major company, but neither is it a bunch of mates operating out of someone's shed.
OTOH, companies like Malfador Machinations are proof that you don't have to have hundreds of people to turn out a decent title.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 08, 2012 07:48 AM |
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Quote:
It really is difficult to say. Comparing Nival's finished product with Black Hole's finished product, it does seem as though Nival looks better. But I don't know that Nival's finished product, even, was up to the standards for what I had come to expect from the Heroes subfranchise.
But we didn't see BlackHoles finished product, did we?
I still think TotE was a pretty awesome game, however. There were some central design and stability flaws, but it was a pretty good game none-the-less by 3.1.
____________
What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 08, 2012 08:25 AM |
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Nival obviously had a different task to fulfill.
Heroes V did transfer HoMM to Ashan, but was something of a ... summary ... for the whole series. It put the game mechanics back onto HoMM 3 turf, found the final word on random hero skill development, integrated HoMM 4's concept of racial skills for all, fumbled the question of battlefield size and form and rounded things up with the alternative upgrades, even though in my opinion a sizable part of those is uninspired.
It did a couple of other things, but the main thing is, it delivered something quite solid to build upon.
In contrast to this Black Hole's task has been a lot more difficult: if Heroes V was Homm 3 8 years later, then HoMM 6 was supposed to be HoMM 4 8 years later. That this is the case, can be easily seen: if something has been done truly good in HoMM 5 it's the skill/ability system, and it would have been fairly easy - and probably been the smart move - to keep the general system and expand on/refine it.
But no. HoMM 6 is basically a REALLY new game. Now the problem isn't what features you put into a game like that; I mean, sure, you CAN discuss to death whether heroes on the battlefield is generally ok or not, but in practise it's a question of implementation.
And, sadly, this is the point where Black Hole fumbled the ball COMPLETELY: for a game developer who supposedly played the HoMM series themselves and knew a lot about it, it should have been as clear to them as has been to every observer of the game development, that if you DO change the things that worked BEST in HoMM 5 - the skill system - you would have to replace it by something working like a charm and being simply better and more interesting, in short, by something REFINED and pretty near FLAWLESS.
The skill system is everything else than that, though.
The same is true for the other serious changes: less resources; town conversion; immediate regeneration abilities; tier system...
So the simple fact is this: Nival managed what they were tasked to do. They struggled, certainly; the game's initial release was a shame, certainly. But in the end they did, what they were supposed to, and I actually found it rather positive that they completely redid the Necromancy system after the release (and I take this as a positive example to really change things massively even AFTER release).
Black Hole, however, did NOT manage that, and the fact that they didn't get the chance that Nival got after release may reflect that.
Which is actually the decisive thing: Nival's HoMM V 1.1 - release version with release patch - was ABYSMAL. It was basically an alpha, everyone knew, and within a good year, Nival went to Beta to fine game.
Contrary to that BH's HoMM 6 1.1 was more refined on the surface - but would have needed at least the same amount of dedicated work to make it a success in a year, after the second expansion, and the trouble is that in this case not only Necromancy would need a redesign, but major parts of the whole game.
Which may be the problem: it simply doesn't look like you can easily change serious game parts.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted May 08, 2012 08:49 AM |
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Quote:
New World Computing
Hier! Hier!
Bring back 3DO & New World Computing!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 08, 2012 08:53 AM |
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You mean 3do, the outfit that invented customer rip-off?
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 08, 2012 09:45 AM |
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Quote:
You mean 3do, the outfit that invented customer rip-off?
No, he means 3DO, the company that destroyed NWC. Ah the joys of short-term memory 
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted May 09, 2012 07:57 AM |
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No, I mean C3P0 
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted May 10, 2012 10:11 PM |
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Actually "Heroes V" of "Nival" was a success, yes. But the early style of "Heroes VI" is much more enjoyable for me. So, I vote for dead (?) "Black Hole". Really, so sorry...
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ywhtptgtfo
Hired Hero
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posted May 10, 2012 10:20 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You mean 3do, the outfit that invented customer rip-off?
No, he means 3DO, the company that destroyed NWC. Ah the joys of short-term memory
We all miss Trip Hawkins... this giant grandfather of successful video game development. Sorry, can't keep a straight face.
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Pol
Known Hero
.^.
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posted May 11, 2012 12:02 AM |
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BlackHole.
It appears that they had a better ideas. You may object that it was too much and too fast and yet they managed to create a superior base.
Now it's not in their hands, not any longer, and it really appears like that they run out of luck. Sad. I had high hopes for these devs.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 11, 2012 03:46 AM |
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Nival, because I don't like a lot of the changes Ubisoft forced BH to make.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted May 11, 2012 09:15 AM |
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Edited by SKPRIMUS at 09:22, 11 May 2012.
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JollyJoker wrote:Quote:
...then HoMM 6 was supposed to be HoMM 4 8 years later...HoMM 6 is basically a REALLY new game...
I disagree, altho I'm sure many agree on the fumbling part. On a game mechanic design level, H6 is not that much different from H3 or H5 - other than every creature appears to have many more passive/active abilities & the DRM/achievements monkey on the back, I don't see that it required a LOT LOT more work.
Complete revision of an earlier conceptual H6 design will require a lot lot more work but no mention of that was made.
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Pol wrote:Quote:
BlackHole.
It appears that they had a better ideas. You may object that it was too much and too fast and yet they managed to create a superior base...
I'm curious about what some VIPs & veterans say is a "superior base" that makes H6 so much "superior".
Other than
- init/speed/one action per turn (like 1C's KB series - is this BHole's idea or come from fans or what?)
- every creature can reach other side in 2 turns or less (is this BHole's idea or come from fans?)
- might & magic heroes (like H3) which alleviates part of the problem where magic is stong initially & might stronger later. (is this BHole's idea or come from fans?)
- no first-turn slaughter & less reliance on morale/luck (is this BHole's idea or come from fans?)
- might atk vs might def; magic atk vs magic def & scaling of creatures vs destructive dmg spells
- scaling of buffs dependent on magic atk/def stats.
The above are not that radically superior & do they all come from BHole? What other things are superior? [please don't say dynasty weapons/achievements/bonuses]
On the other hand:
- DRM (ubi fault ofc)
- offline has no hero choice for starting hero & only starting hero has reputation (ubi fault or BH forgot?)
- no non-dynasty weapons: some who play a strategic game don't play with dynasty weapons.
- ridiculous focus on achievements (to make DRM look good) (achievements are in 1C's KB series but those games are for adventure campaign focused!)
- user-interface sux badly compared to previous HoMMs
- crusade against randomness (incl much weaker luck/morale stat cf atk/def) (probably initiated by fans?)
- something against perceived micro-management (probably initiated by fans?)
- custom maps not playable in MP online (ubi fault or BH?)
- small number of maps
- skill tree that isn't very exciting & not hard to see some "get it every time skills" & entirely choosable.
- similar skill trees for all heroes
- similar town builds for all factions
- reduced resources (ubi fault or BH?)
- no town screens (ubi fault or BH?)
- focus on fancy graphics
- no sim turns
- no indication of creature growth & how it's derived is not shown on creature buy screen
- can't see how far hero can move on next turn & how long it takes to get to a location more than a turn away.
Some of the above are pretty severe negatives & I'm not mentioning obvious widespread bugs.
imo, all the HoMMs had a base design concept that had potential.
I would have liked for them to return to what they did when H5TotE was done (ie. previous ubi managment team plus Nival).
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 11, 2012 09:44 AM |
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Quote:
JollyJoker wrote:Quote:
...then HoMM 6 was supposed to be HoMM 4 8 years later...HoMM 6 is basically a REALLY new game...
I disagree, altho I'm sure many agree on the fumbling part. On a game mechanic design level, H6 is not that much different from H3 or H5 - other than every creature appears to have many more passive/active abilities & the DRM/achievements monkey on the back, I don't see that it required a LOT LOT more work.
Umm, what? Complete change of primary skills AND mechanics? Complete change of the skill system to free pick, change of resources, convertable towns, Boss creatures, No Magic schools or guilds, complete overhaul of racial skill handling, creature tier system (making upgrades and especially alternative upgrades somewhat less relevant compared with other, H4ish options), creature pool, hero movement independent from creatures, Heroes to be hired later become stronger (automatic Meentor effect), different XP ladders, customizable heroes, Artifacts gaining experience...
Are you kidding?
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VOKIALBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted May 11, 2012 07:59 PM |
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Pitlord
Known Hero
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posted May 11, 2012 09:19 PM |
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted May 11, 2012 11:21 PM |
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Edited by SKPRIMUS at 23:26, 11 May 2012.
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@JollyJoker, you wrote:
Quote:
In contrast to this Black Hole's task has been a lot more difficult: if Heroes V was Homm 3 8 years later, then HoMM 6 was supposed to be HoMM 4 8 years later. That this is the case, can be easily seen: if something has been done truly good in HoMM 5 it's the skill/ability system, and it would have been fairly easy - and probably been the smart move - to keep the general system and expand on/refine it.
But no. HoMM 6 is basically a REALLY new game...
so from that I read that you think BHole had a lot more work due to the changes & "really new game".
I disagree because I don't think the resulting game mechanics changes are that radical such that it required a lot more work compared to H5.
Primary skills haven't changed that much, removing resources doesn't mean more work, removing mage guild doesn't mean more work, there was racial skills in H5, there's still 7 creatures in each town, hero movement still independent from creatures same as H5...& are choosable skills really that hard to implement compared to the previous probability based picks? (I suspect same choosable skill-tree for heroes are easier to implement programming-wise)
Dynasty weapons, boss creatures, different xp ladders, heroes hired later are stronger: these don't enhance gameplay for me (neither does convertible towns, creature pool, removing resources/mage guild/adventure map stuff, no town screens, bad UI). Although DRM/achievements/bonuses resulted in a lot more work too [but one less faction].
The jump from H3 to H4 is more different than H5 to H6. I'd say the extra work done in some places were wasted due to bad design decisions (including convoluted method of calculating & displaying atk vs def modifier that should have just been like H5 but using 2.5% rather than 5%). ofc this is imo, so no doubt not everyone thinks the same.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2012 08:43 AM |
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SKPRIMUS, you are simply wrong - as wrong as the guys from BH (and possibly Uni as well) who just UNDERESTIMATED the problems the same way than you STILL do it, even though you should know meanwhile, after having played the game, that things are simply not "running smooth".
I will give an example - let's take resource reduction. What is actually affected here?
a) MAP LOCATIONS - we have 3 less map locations, which also means 3 less map locations that you MUST conquer, in the vicinity of your town
b) simplified hero movement routine (prior to 6 heroes would have to optimize the lay of the 6 different mines with their resource and building priorities which is much more difficult than doing it with 3.)
c) less resource income on the whole (8 per round formerly, plus 1 from a possible Silo, now 5)
d) consequences for Market and possible resource exchange
e) consequence for resource demands for town building (example: formerly you would have resources your town wouldn't need much, and buildings that would need only or mainly that resources could be "slipped in" without hampering your overall ability to build the important stuff)
f) general relation between resource INCOME (that is, the stuff you can PLAN with for your development) and random FINDS (the stuff you can NOT plan with but hazard to find and fight for.
If I would actually have to describe what's the current difference in that area between HoMM 1-5 and HoMM 6 I would say, that with Heroes 1-5 you'll have clear priority phases: you must conquer the mines soon (and some sooner than others), and you have to pick up doing that whatever you can. After that you look for other strategically important targets.
With 6 you will of course flag the mines - but you will also have fight after fight after fight for piles of 2 Wood or 1 Crystal or 3 Ore or 800 Gold, simply because you NEED those piles, because otherwise you can't build, mines or not, making the game a random resource hunt more than everything else.
Note that when we tested the game first a good year ago, NOONE would build the Market - it was the old Market, but it simply had no use in the game anymore, especially not with the exchange rate there was. As it happens, it was me who suggested to let the Market PAY and to better exchange rates ( even though I would have given better exchange rates, yet), which shows actually, that they had not much of an idea at all what this change did with the game.
You could have done it differently, though, for example having the "standard map layout" as 2 circles of 3 mines each for a town, the first circle guarded as it is now, the second more heavily guarded mines as later strategic targets to increase your plannable mine productions.
OR you could have made mines UPGRADABLE to increase their production.
OR you could have introduced a building, let's say a "Miner's Guild" that would add +1 Ore and +1 Wood for each Orepit/Sawmill in the area controlled by that town, and an upgrade of that Guild a tier higher, that would add another +1 flat for each MINE in the area.
Or... you can think about something yourself.
You see, with each of these the game would play quite different: you would put the stress on different parts of the game. For example, the way it is, it's running/fighting hectically around trying to pick up as much as possible. With the Miner's Guilds it would be more about strategic town building. With additional mines it would be more like it was, trying to pick heavier and more important fights when the time is right and so on.
Because it's all about FINE-TUNING the puzzle pieces of the game mechanics into an harmonic whole that radiates the right atmosphere of "just another turn" and not "yet another turn fighting for piles of Wood and Ore against some nutters I won't lose even a point of mana defeating".
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted May 12, 2012 09:34 AM |
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ofc I'm simply wrong according to you, because I have a different opinion from you 
YOU suggested better marketplace exchange rates? well done. I'm sure many would have thought the same as an improvement after H5.
Funny in all the HoMM, I have to capture mines & also fight after fight after fight for resources & artifacts etc in order to build up quickly.
As I said before elsewhere, resource reduction for me playing H6 haven still feels similar strategically to H5 haven if they only had crystal as rare resource & got rid of gem/sulfur/merc...I don't hate it because for me the gameplay is not that different & same things can be achieved with 4 rare resources too with a bit of design. Others hate only 1 rare resource for different reasons.
If a minority want reduced resources, others don't care & more others hate it, then it's not very smart to reduce resources is it?
Designing the game as it is now with 1 rare resource, very similar build-tree for each town seem awfully like LESS work than 4 rare resources & different build-tree for each town!
in case you hadn't noticed, I mention work to get to where it is now (related to your statement about BHole task being more difficult), not future fine-tuning or other ideas.
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 12, 2012 10:33 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:34, 12 May 2012.
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Really, it's bloody stupid suggesting that BH had to do more work than Nival because Ubisoft wanted the game to play differently, Nival was starting off with some general guidelines for mechanics, but probably not a single line of code (leasts ways, not one that would be useful), so they basically had to write the whole engine, just as BH probably did, and if they didn't they got a leg-up on a lot of mechanics like combat movement, spell effects and town construction.
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