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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Offence better than defence?
Thread: Offence better than defence?
gammacra
gammacra


Hired Hero
posted May 05, 2012 03:47 PM

Offence better than defence?

Hello!

I have played a lot with Fortress and Stronghold lately, but I have realized that in general, offence is better than defence.

I'd like to believe both are equally good, but it doesn't seem this way.

It really does seem true that the best defence is a good offence, my heart lies with defence, it saddens me to know that defence is nothing compared to offence, is offence, always better?

Please can someone explain how, defence could have the upper hand, or is Offense always superior?

I am a great fan of Fortress.

Thank you.

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solitaire345
solitaire345


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 05, 2012 04:23 PM
Edited by solitaire345 at 16:24, 05 May 2012.

Offense skill multiplies the damage done by this formula:
damage = basic_damage*(1 + percentage)

Defense skill reduces damage received  by this formula:
reduced_damage = damage*(1 - percentage)

Percentage depends on skill and hero levels and since some level it becomes 100% (or more) which means that you are multiplying damage by 0.

I don't remember how exactly the percentage is calculated, but the formula has been discussed somewhere in the forum
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solitaire345
solitaire345


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2012 07:30 AM

Ah.. seems like I misread that message a little. Oh well. I personally clean the surroundings of the starting town with two heroes for goodies, then leave one hero for defending town and go on conquering and raising skeletons with another. Later on, I have few more heroes to visit mills, recruit creatures from external dwellings and refill garrisons (if any). That's how my defensive offense works.

(For advanced players my tactics may seem weak, because last time I played against human opponent was probably three or four years ago and now I play against AI only, sometimes guessing what it will do, attacking towns before they can recruit creatures and so on.)


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gammacra
gammacra


Hired Hero
posted May 06, 2012 04:56 PM

If I use Stronghold with Crag Hack Offence you can hit the enemy so hard that they don't have a chance to hit back because they're dead.

If I use the Fortress with Tazar defence I realise that you can't wipe out the enemy in a single blow very easily, so they get a chance to hit you.

Is defence have any advantage ever?

Sorry if my wording is off I can't think straight for some reason.


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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted May 07, 2012 06:06 AM
Edited by liophy at 06:08, 07 May 2012.

If you are good player, generaly you make your fights against the map in such way, that your army are very rarely hit. So in such case it doesnt matter what defence you have.

Sure, there are fights when you will take hits and then defence/armor matter. But they are fewer in comparison with the other battles, when you make the creature dance forth and back and kill them before they hit you.

This aply especially for shooters. Generaly shooters are so weak, you dont want them to be hit at all. So you only need attack for them, defence doesnt matter.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted May 07, 2012 08:52 AM

Quote:
If I use Stronghold with Crag Hack Offence you can hit the enemy so hard that they don't have a chance to hit back because they're dead.

If I use the Fortress with Tazar defence I realise that you can't wipe out the enemy in a single blow very easily, so they get a chance to hit you.

Is defence have any advantage ever?

Sorry if my wording is off I can't think straight for some reason.




You see clearly one of the most important things in the game, which many decent players seem not to realise. Barbs rule. So that is good for you.

There is one case where defence is better, and that is if you rely on heavy magic(implo, ressurection etc.). In this case your army just have to stay alive untill you handle things with the magic. Also if you have a good stack of mighty gorgons and you fight lvl 7 units defence should be better than offence.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted May 07, 2012 05:01 PM

A late game Ancient Behemoth with Crag Hack can take down any upgraded Level 7 which is not led by a hero with Armourer in 2 hits (3 at most). This is monstrous damage indeed so the Stronghold army usually has to be outrun and slaughtered before it can deliver its damage - which is easier to say than to do.

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kringled
kringled


Hired Hero
posted May 08, 2012 12:20 AM

I'm not very experienced with multiplayer, but it would seem to me that a high attack/low defense army would potentially be very vulnerable to a single round of Expert Berserk from a hero with a faster troop.  Used in a sort of hit-and-run fashion, you could seriously whittle an army like that down.  Since Barbarians (the prototypical attack>>defense hero) can't typically get water magic, Expert Cure/Dispel probably wouldn't be an issue.  Of course, whether you'd have gotten a mage guild to 4 and expert fire magic by the time the enemy army was breathing down your neck is another matter.

Keith
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Peterlerock
Peterlerock


Adventuring Hero
posted May 08, 2012 02:45 AM

Since usually you can get armourer AND offense skill and since your stats will be high anyways, the choice is only between: Beastmaster/Barbarian and what to choose in the arena, +2 attack or defense...


I would go for the barbarian as main hero in most cases, the exception being the choice between the thunderbird girl and Tazar...
Same for the arena, always take +2 offense.

I feel it's way more favorable to have 2:1 in Attackefense than the other way around, simply because someone you kill doesn't hit you, "attack is the best defense".

You see this the most is in early creeping.

Starting with a barbarian, you kill wandering stacks pretty fast. The losses being small because you take retaliation with fodder stacks or only hit stacks that are killed outright.
Starting with a beastmaster the same army does the job not as good, the damage output is too low. It doesn't really help that your losses are minimal.


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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted May 09, 2012 04:05 AM

300 hit points are not that easy to deplete, although the Ancient Behemoth is no Black Dragon indeed. This fodder that you are referring too has to be fast, expendable and able to deal high damage and there aren't many creatures that fit into that category - otherwise the retaliation of an even halved stack of Ancients will be devastating. Waiting usually means that the Barbarian will cast mass Haste or mass Prayer (the former is far more likely though) and will come to you. Even if you dispose of the Ancients, you still have to handle the Thunderbirds and the Ogre Magis + the rest of course. In short, in Might vs. Might Stronghold will normally have at least partial advantage. If you have good spells though, this whole situation could be different and it's almost certain that you'll cast first due to the lack of really fast creatures among the Stronghold troops.

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kringled
kringled


Hired Hero
posted May 09, 2012 07:07 AM

Quote:

Well actually, if you've an offensive specialist, I don't think it matters if the opponent have armourer as long as it's not a specialist.
Just looking at the raw numbers, the average damage of the AB is 40. If the game have went on for a high enough level for maximum attack proficency of the AB (meaning every extra point in attack does not improve the damage from the AB, which is why I prefer beastmaster, because then the overall contribution is better), then the AB deals 5 times its normal damage, which is 200. But with an offensive specialist that easily becomes doubled into 400, which is enough to outright destroy any stack of equal amount of same level units in one hit.



I'm not quite sure about your math here.  My understanding is that the maximum bonus from (Attack-Defense) is 300%, so that brings 40 to 160.  Offense specialist bonus is calculated on base damage, so at level 21, that could add another 60% of base or 24 points.  At level 41, 90% of base, or 36 points to give 196 points.  Still pretty huge damage for a single AB (and given their cost and ease of building, Stronghold is likely to have a lot of them).  I understand and agree with your main point, though.

Keith
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted May 09, 2012 05:08 PM

Problem is that for most factions the fastest creatures are also, normally, the best damage-dealers, so you will either have to throw them against the Ancients or wait, which means that you'll get a heavy retaliation against something which is not exactly expendable or will allow the Barbarian to move his troops (including the Ancients of course) against your waiting would-be-killers (with mass Haste for instance) and hit them hard. Inferno may have the easiest time here because it has two creatures which can't be retaliated against so with good Luck and/or Morale triggers you may indeed inflict heavy casualties before the Stronghold army starts returning the favour - problem is that the Inferno troops are not all that durable too.

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gammacra
gammacra


Hired Hero
posted May 12, 2012 12:41 PM

Yeah been playing more and really loving the stronghold, what a great town!

I think defence is good if you need to defend lots of shooters, but then more defence means the shooters deal less damage, i dunno, can't find many advantages of choosing defence instead of offence, offence seems to have much more advantages, anyway interesting things have been said, thankyou, I always seek to learn more about this game.

Stronghold>Fortress in my current perspective, I actually prefer fortress's units, but stronghold with Crag Hack seems better to have than Tazar.

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Peterlerock
Peterlerock


Adventuring Hero
posted May 13, 2012 06:41 AM

You know you can find Mr.Hack in a fortress tavern as well?

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