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| Thread: Another blow to gamers' rights |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zenofex
Responsible
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 08, 2012 01:46 PM |
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So it's okay for the entire industry to stagnate and devolve due to Publisher greed?
Of course it is - this way some overly-greedy money-suckers can eat their own meal and lose revenue due to overpriced products, hopefully ceasing to exist in the end. Alternatively stupid people will keep fuelling the mechanism designed to milk them - like it is now - but that's their problem. The market is not based on rationality no matter what certain idealistic economists say. Good news are that piracy is not going anywhere for the foreseeable future and every idiotically overpriced game will eventually find its way to some torrent tracker where all the content costs only the time to download it. Call it what you like, this is the best balancing mechanism at the moment.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 08, 2012 03:41 PM |
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Exactly.
And speaking of piracy... I mean, those who advertise free downloading are those who claim that there is no physical property involved - it's NOT theft. Now, if there is no physical property involved - then what do you want to sell/buy secondhand?
In fact, IF the market proves that the product will be pirated, if available, no matter what you do, then it's logical to not make the full product available, which is what we have now. Basically a server is installing only part of the software, the rest being "on disk" and unaccessible - gamers don't buy anymore, they LEASE.
Consequentially: no reselling; you don't own, you just lease.
Of course, privacy isn't a factor on the console market, but, heck, that doesn't mean they can't do it.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 08, 2012 04:20 PM |
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So it's okay for the entire industry to stagnate and devolve due to Publisher greed?
If the majority of game buyers refused to buy DLC, the industry wouldn't stagnate and devolve, as you put it. The industry would simply stop producing DLC. Consumers actually have all the power, but it can only be exercised in numbers.
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted May 08, 2012 05:09 PM |
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I'm sure I overlook something here, but no one is forcing anyone to buy - neither games nor DLC nor consoles.
So how can it be robbery?
It's called "individual has zero impact" robbery. So you don't want to buy DLCs? have fun with unfinished products with content deliberately cut from it to be sold later.
You can go all rebel and skip the game, but what if it's what you waited for years? Say, what if Diablo III was to be sold in four separate parts, each for 60$, instead of the full four-act game and you happen to love diablo? You can not buy it (missing all the fun) or buy it (overpaying and fueling up the DLC practice). Both options suck and you have no impact on how it works anyway.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 08, 2012 05:14 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 17:15, 08 May 2012.
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Consumers actually have all the power, but it can only be exercised in numbers.
Which is a problem in that context because the consumers are no organised faction but a mechanical group of individuals who react... well, individually. The currently successful (financially) greedy corporations which plague the gaming industry benefit from customers who don't mind paying a disproportional amount of money for the product they are receiving but ultimately it's their money so who can blame them? The cure for stupidity will be the mankind's salvation, if ever invented.
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Doomforge
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posted May 08, 2012 05:17 PM |
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well said. You can't make "the majority" smarter, and you are doomed to suffer from it and from the smart-***es who are actually milking the stupid.
Since capitalism is a straight line towards corporatism, it's a natural way of things.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted May 08, 2012 05:24 PM |
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Quote:
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So it's okay for the entire industry to stagnate and devolve due to Publisher greed?
If the majority of game buyers refused to buy DLC, the industry wouldn't stagnate and devolve, as you put it. The industry would simply stop producing DLC. Consumers actually have all the power, but it can only be exercised in numbers.
Should've cleared up that I was talking about their draconian anti-piracy measures there. Oh well.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 08, 2012 05:32 PM |
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I'm sure I overlook something here, but no one is forcing anyone to buy - neither games nor DLC nor consoles.
So how can it be robbery?
It's called "individual has zero impact" robbery. So you don't want to buy DLCs? have fun with unfinished products with content deliberately cut from it to be sold later.
You can go all rebel and skip the game, but what if it's what you waited for years?
Then it's time to either get a life or to pay up. Ah, dear, always these DECISIONS.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 08, 2012 05:35 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 17:43, 08 May 2012.
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It's called "individual has zero impact" robbery. So you don't want to buy DLCs? have fun with unfinished products with content deliberately cut from it to be sold later.
That's an imagined concept. You don't have to buy the game at all. But until consumers tell manufacturers that they won't accept the DLC concept, manufacturers will still product it. You're blaming the wrong people for the state of the system. Consumers buy the DLC concept, otherwise manufacturers wouldn't produce it. Consumers are ultimately to blame for the state of the system, because they enable it. Manufacturers only make what will sell, and can you blame them? That's just business.
Imagine the ridiculousness of this conversation:
A guy walks out of an ice cream store carrying a cone of ice cream heaped with all kinds of toppings, and he's got a scowl on his face.
"God damn it!" he screams.
"What's wrong?" you ask.
"These ice cream places are highway robbery. I buy the ice cream, I should get all these toppings too. But they charge me for each one! It's robbery, I tell you!"
"Well nobody forces you to buy the toppings. You could just buy the ice cream."
He looks at you like you're a lunatic. "Oh, sure, try to enjoy the ice cream without all that additional flavor. They've got you by the balls, man! You have to buy the toppings if you want to get all the value out of the ice-cream. It's not fair! Greedy goddamn ice-cream companies."
"Well why don't you just not buy ice cream if you don't like what they charge. If enough people refuse to buy, maybe the price will go down?"
"Yeah, right. Consumers are idiots. We have no voice. The ice cream companies KNOW we won't act together. We're doomed." He looks at you sullenly. "Besides, I like ice cream. I don't want to go without."
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Which is the problem, really. You want to play the game, and so you'll buy it, but you'll whine about it because you don't get all the nice toppings for free. The manufacturer knows you want toppings, and so of course he's going to charge you for them. Why would he give you something for free if he knows you'll pay for it extra? Unless you show him otherwise, that's what he's going to do. There's nothing wrong with that, in fact it makes perfect sense.
Personally, I don't buy DLC content because I don't think it's worth the money. Maybe I miss out on some things, but that's how I've prioritized my dollars. If I don't think I get enough content out of a game without buying extra DLC (if I don't think the total price is worth it, I.e.) I don't buy the game at all.
Ultimately, you're in charge of what you spend your money on. If you think a price isn't fair, don't buy it. If enough people feel that way, the price will go down. If everyone else judges the value of a product different than you do, then either you'll have to change your value system or you'll have to find some other way to enjoy yourself. That's all there is to it. It's the way life works, not just in computer games but in everything.
And by the way, whining that gamers will never unify to solve the problem is just whining. If you really cared about it, you could try to start an initiative to change the practice of the industry by getting a large portion of gamers to pledge not to buy DLCs. That would take a huge amount of effort on your part, but similar iniatives have been successful in other industries. It all depends on how much you really care about the problem. Or you could just keep whining about it, which will change nothing and will only turn you into a bitter person. 
Choice is ultimately up to you.
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You can go all rebel and skip the game, but what if it's what you waited for years?
No offense, Doom, you know I respect you a lot, but this is the argument of a child. My 4 year old daughter uses the same line of reasoning when she wants two toys at the store and we tell her she can only have one unless she's prepared to spend her own money the the extra one. She looks at me and gives me this "how can the world be so unfair" face. Ultimately, she has to make a decision about how important something is to her. It's a skill she has yet to learn.
If the game is something you have been waiting for for years, then you have an important decision: are your principles more or less important/valuable than a game that's being marketed to you?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted May 08, 2012 05:42 PM |
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Edited by B0rsuk at 17:48, 08 May 2012.
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Who's surprised ? Consoles have always been chiefly about control. Control means you can dictate the price. And they are doing their best to limit second hand sales already, through different means. DLC instead of expansions, various bonuses.
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How about Brian Fargo the developer whining that DLC are expensive ? Does that count ?
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The movement against many forms of paid DLC is only going to get stronger. DLC has now become a 4 letter word with one less letter. I have no problem with things that you download that are cosmetic only and other smaller forms that are more trivial and non-essential. I used to look forward to expansion packs for games. Tons of new game play for like $20. I never had an issue with that. To get as much content in the expansion packs of yesteryear would probably cost $100 in the new DLC model today.
I'm willing to believe he knows what he's talking about. He's the designer of Fallout, Fallout 2, Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Bard's Tale, Icewind Dale and some more.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted May 08, 2012 06:02 PM |
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Then it's time to either get a life or to pay up. Ah, dear, always these DECISIONS.
Yeah, paying up more is always the best option.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
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posted May 08, 2012 06:34 PM |
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*sings an old Stones tune*
"You Can't Always Get Whyt You Wa-ant..." (but if you try some time you may get what you need).
Corribus' post reminds me to have an ice cream one of these days - that is, if I can stand to pay a Euro for a ball, which means, I probably won't.  Toppings? Those European blood suckers make ice cream look like it was gilted or something....
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted May 08, 2012 06:38 PM |
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well said. You can't make "the majority" smarter, and you are doomed to suffer from it and from the smart-***es who are actually milking the stupid.
Since capitalism is a straight line towards corporatism, it's a natural way of things.
70-80% of westerner population usually (I've seen different values from different countries from different research, but those I have seen have all ended up around there) say that they are smarter than the average. It's common delusion that you are smarter than most, but who are you to say, really? I'm not calling you, or anyone, dumb, I'm just saying that there's probably more to it than "most people being dumber than me". Just something to consider.
As for some arguements there's the thing with actual ownage of games today, as JJ brought up. You don't own games anymore. You've only paid for a licence, a key, to a service. Like a key to a hotelroom, a leased car or whatever. When you're done with a hotel room you can't just sell the key to the next guy.
It's a bit of a double edged flaw of an arguement though, as this hypthetical hotel room would be a service you're paying for, and when you've paid for a service you should be able to expect to get the full deal, and not have to pay to use the hypothetical shower and that you should get clean hypothetical sheets, at least if you've paid full price. Same with games. If you've paid full price you should be able to either get full rights to your copy, being allowed to resell it, make copies and what-not; or expect that you get access to the full deal. To expect to you pay full price for the room AND pay for sheets, blankets and pillows would just be ridiculous.
You are either paying for a service or for a product. Not both.
However, not reselling is a more complex problem than that it's just bad for the consumers. For the longest time the chain of retailing has been rather static. A publisher hires a developer and then passes it on to a retailer that sells us, the consumers the product. Thing is that reselling a game will only return money for the customers, and no party has any significant problem with that, but there's also been a market where the retailer rebuy games from the consumers and then pass them on. These are more or less garantueed sales that often returns more than 60% profit for the retailer, while not a cent will go to the developers or publishers, and it's been a huge market. Since there's more or less been a monopoly on retailing there's hardly been much the publishers could've done, except not selling their games (which isn't an option). Not until just a couple of years ago has there been anything to do, but as digital retailing has grown the publishers have now been able to actually take a bit of action. Just look at the financial problems GAME is facing right now (pretty much broke, and will most likely be sold or maybe, though unlikely, declare bankruptcy) and this is an effect of them screwing over publishers over and over for a couple of decades now.
Simply put: Reducing reselling is a way to get more of the money to the publishers, that actually pay for the development. This is a good thing for us consumers, as it will allow for more resources put into development, id est leading to better games by longer and more generous production... on the other hand, we all now that some publishers will also screw over their hired developers, and I hardly think I have to mention any names.
It could also just be a technicial "issue", as it's quite possible that next gen (or in a few generations) consoles might be digital retail only, and you are hardly expecting to be able to refurbish games on a digital platform, are you? Steam sets the standard digital games retail platforms and you can't refurbish on Steam.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 08, 2012 07:08 PM |
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Good post, Shares - except that hotels are exemplary for DLC: Mini-Bar, adult-channels, wellness offers, breakfast (with some hotels breakfast is separate) additional bed, internet lounge, room service...
And if the room doesn't include basics like towels or a bed - you don't rent.
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Zenofex
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Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 08, 2012 08:53 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 20:53, 08 May 2012.
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And by the way, whining that gamers will never unify to solve the problem is just whining. If you really cared about it, you could try to start an initiative to change the practice of the industry by getting a large portion of gamers to pledge not to buy DLCs.
Or you just promote the pirate trackers whenever and wherever possible - the effect is likely to be greater with much less efforts. Then some people will start whining against the piracy and how it ruins the games by forcing the honest publishers to implement horrific DRMs but I guess nothing stops them from starting an anti-piracy campaign, etc.  Either way, the person who really wants to play the game can play it without paying a single penny - that is not really a problem, except if your moral standards forbid it.
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Doomforge
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posted May 08, 2012 09:14 PM |
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Good post, Shares - except that hotels are exemplary for DLC: Mini-Bar, adult-channels, wellness offers, breakfast (with some hotels breakfast is separate) additional bed, internet lounge, room service...
And if the room doesn't include basics like towels or a bed - you don't rent.
No, no, no. Hotel rooms would be like DLC if the bed was strapped from the room in the first place and you had an option of sleeping on the floor OR paying extra for the bed.
Extra bed and breakfast would be an equivalent of expansion packs which I have nothing against.
The whole deal with DLC is that they are basically forcefully ripped from the game to be sold as separate content.
Honestly, JJ - if you rented rooms for years for, say 40$, and suddenly a trend happened and you have to pay 40$ plus extra 15$ for a bed (or sleep on the floor) in, like, every hotel there is, would you be so cheerful and happily pay/get a life?  Or would you perhaps feel insulted and/or robbed?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 08, 2012 09:26 PM |
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Honestly, Doom.
I wouldn't rent. Period.
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Doomforge
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posted May 08, 2012 09:27 PM |
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Well, you could do that of course, but sleeping in the car instead isn't the most convenient option
My point is: both options suck.
You don't buy overpriced games with numerous DLCs = you miss the fun. You buy them = you overpay and make things worse globally.
Sure, you can say "go ride a bike instead", and it's a valid point... but what if I really want to play it, but don't want to support DLCs?
lose-lose
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
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posted May 08, 2012 09:33 PM |
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No, wrong:
You go into a café or a bar, and instead of buying a hotel room with DLC you buy a beer or a coffee. Then, at 9 or 10 pm you go to the reception and see whether you get the 40+15 deal for 25, since the day is running out - and you can otherwise sleep in your car.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted May 08, 2012 10:15 PM |
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Good post, Shares - except that hotels are exemplary for DLC: Mini-Bar, adult-channels, wellness offers, breakfast (with some hotels breakfast is separate) additional bed, internet lounge, room service...
And if the room doesn't include basics like towels or a bed - you don't rent.
Yeah, of course, but consumables is a different kind of deal, isn't it?
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