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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: M&M: Creatures of Ashan
Thread: M&M: Creatures of Ashan [ This thread is 4 pages long: 1 (2) 3 4 ]
Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted June 20, 2012 05:47 AM

OK.. Mind if I make the haven evolution of my own?
It will be a little more complicated.
I must say that I do not usually use Hereos IV units but For this one I will make an exeption.



The reasons I think the sentinel has nothing to do with the pikemen, but rather with the squire are:
1: pikemen use pikes, Sentinels are roman inspired and use spears. Those are different wapons
2: Sentinel uses a sheild, and many of his abilities are connected to the shield, like it was i the case of the squire
3: Both squire and Sentinell full fill the same role in the Haven armies. Basic defensive infantery.

I made a cople of such evolutions myself some years back, so I do know why you want to do this, but also this means I do have an opinon to say:-).

And As I said.. lets stick it to heroes only..Adding other MaM titles woudl be insane.
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted June 20, 2012 05:56 AM

You'd like opinions one some of the more arguable choices of creature groupings? Very well, let's start, shall we?
Let me first state, that IMHO, it is not necessarily wrong to put one creature into 2 groups.

Haven
The H4 Squire is where it should be, in the group of lower tier melee warriors without a spear/polearm. The H4 Crusader should rather be in the group(when and if it is made) with the the H1+2 Paladin and the H3 Crusader.
Unlike Esvath, I think Sentinels should stay in the group with pikemen, as they all use polearms. (The do not use swords)
I agree with DarkLord that the Priest and Vestal should stay in different groups. For the reasons he stated.

Inferno
I'm rather tempted to put the Gog in the Succubus group, since they have done exactly the same. Hurl fire around.

Academy
For similar reasons, I am tempted to put Halflings in with Gremlins, since they usualy serve the same role and they have alternated between installments. (Halflings in 2 & 4, Gremlins in 3 & 5)

Necropolis
I'd put H3 Wights and Wraiths in both the Ghost and the Wraith group.

Sylvan
I'd put the H2 Green Dragon, and perhaps the H1 Dragon, in with the Green Dragon.

Dungeon
I'd take the H1-4 Thieves/Rogues out of the Assasin Group and put them in a 'Never-made-it-to-Ashan' Group of their own, if/when one gets created.
I'd also put at least the H3 harpies in with the Blood Maidens as wel since they were the Harpies of H5.

Stronghold
Perhaps I'd put the H3 Wolf Riders in with the Goblins as well, since they fall into 2 categories. That of Wolves and that of Goblins.
I'd put the Shamen and the Dreamwalkers into the same Group, perhaps with the adition of H3-4 Orge Magi.
I'd also put the Slayers and Jaguar Warriors into the same group, perhaps with the adittion of H1-3 Ogres(not Ogre Magi).
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DarkLord
DarkLord


Supreme Hero
Fear me..
posted June 20, 2012 06:02 AM
Edited by DarkLord at 06:06, 20 Jun 2012.

@ Dave
WOOOW!!! Dave!!!
Thanks a lot!
Thats very useful!
And of course you have right to say you your opinion!I welcome that!
You v changed my view and i tent to agree with you on some points(Sentinel/Pikeman)!!
in some not! (Priest/Vestal)
would like others to participate as well though,
so we have a "democracy" in here!
will change it in the post when i hear more from HC members

@ War-Overlord
Thanks a lot for the feedback!!!

Will wait for more replies and opinons,,

Would like to request though to start from HAVEN for now,
when we are clear with them, we will move on to other factions
one by one!

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted June 20, 2012 06:22 AM

Quote:
The reasons I think the sentinel has nothing to do with the pikemen, but rather with the squire are:
1: pikemen use pikes, Sentinels are roman inspired and use spears. Those are different wapons
2: Sentinel uses a sheild, and many of his abilities are connected to the shield, like it was i the case of the squire
3: Both squire and Sentinell full fill the same role in the Haven armies. Basic defensive infantery.


I have several things to say about this.
1: As much as sentinels are inspired by Roman Legionaires, the Romans themselves never used spears, they use Javelins. Javelins are for throwing them. In close combat Legionaires used Gladii. If anything, Sentinels are more a throwback to Ancient Greek Hoplites.
Also, spear is a catch-all term for poles with a point head. And spears generally come in two categories. Those for throwing and those for thrusting. And both the Pikemen and the Sentinels use their spears for thrusting.
2+3: Pikemen & Sentinels have always been basic defensive infantry. Squires only were so in H5. It is arguable what role they were in H3, but in H1, 2 & 4 they were focused on defense. Whereas the Swordsmen of H1, 2 & 4 were offensive. And one might even say that the H5 squire was suitable for both roles, especially the Vindicator upgrade which was clearly intended to be used offensively. (as well)
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted June 20, 2012 06:35 AM

I don't want to group the H2 druids together with the H3 (and H4) monks, but the latter is definitely a spiritual successor to the former.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted June 20, 2012 06:56 AM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 07:03, 20 Jun 2012.

Well we can go a little bit deeper.

Example:
You can put H-IV squire and crusader together and create the H V Squire. You can put the H-IV Pikemen and Peasant together to create the H-V Peasant. And you can put H-V Peasant and Squire together to create the H-VI Sentinel.

But I would like to pute one more thing into considerenc in this topic.
Hereos IV had a different system of units then H 1-3 that was later abandoned and Hereos V returned to the sysetem used in Heroes 3. Heroes IV system of units is not really that understandable if you want to put in into context with Heroes other games. You can aply it to individuals but comparing each faction as depiceted in every game like I did in the picture is very confusing.

I rather use two charts each time. One for the "Dead branch" Heroes 1-4. and one for the "returned branch" Heroes 1-3 and 5-6

Also.. if you want, I can do such charts of all factions.

Edit:
@ War-overlord I am aware of teh historical factsyou pointed out. As for the naming I am use to a more detailed devirsion of weapons in my  language so I see a clear difference between a Javelin a spear and a Pike as well as other polearms like Halabard and Flail.
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted June 20, 2012 07:10 AM
Edited by War-overlord at 07:13, 20 Jun 2012.

Quote:
P.S. guys need your help to clarify some points

1)should i include other Ashan creatures?
(Dark Messiah/Clash of Heroes/Duel of Champions/Heroes Kingdoms/Heroes Online)
OR stick to HoMM?

2)should i make a group "creatures that never made it to Ashan"
and include previous HoMM creatures (HoMM1/2/3/4)?


I'd say either or. Either stick to HoMM creatures and make a never made it to Ashan category. Or Stick to Ashan only and include creatures from HoMM spinoffs.

As for the evolution of creatures, that is what we are debating. But I am sure you've noticed that. Also, this is your project. If you think we are talking out our collective arses, feel free to disregard such things.

Quote:
War-overlord I am aware of teh historical factsyou pointed out. As for the naming I am use to a more detailed devirsion of weapons in my  language so I see a clear difference between a Javelin a spear and a Pike as well as other polearms like Halabard and Flail.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.
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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
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I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted June 20, 2012 07:14 AM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 07:17, 20 Jun 2012.

I would say to for now stick it to HoMaM only.. an the.. when all is done maybe start a second gen. with Ashan only creatures for H 5-6 and the other ashan spinoffs

@War-overlord: I Agree with you on the Oger to Shaman and "Big orc" evolutin.
The point was that I see a difference between how Pikemen and Sentinel use their polearms. Pikeman use their pikes for both Offence and deffence. While Sentinels use their Spears for offence and sheilds for Deffence.


____________
I'm just a Mirror of your
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted June 20, 2012 07:26 AM

Quote:
The point was that I see a difference between how Pikemen and Sentinel use their polearms. Pikeman use their pikes for both Offence and deffence. While Sentinels use their Spears for offence and sheilds for Deffence.

Be that as it may, I'd say that the distinction between the kind of weapon is of greater importance than the way it is used.
For if that is your argument, you should place the Halberdier in a group of its own for he uses his polearm as a slashing weapon, focusing on the axehead, instead of thrusting like the others. Or take out the H4 squire out of the squire, for he uses a crushing weapon as opposed to the bladed weapons(swords) of the others.
I'd say the kind of weapon (Polearm, 1-handed melee, 2-handed melee) is of greater importance than it's use for the tracking of the evolution of the creatures in question.
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted June 28, 2012 12:23 PM

Quote:
And may I ask why they are not similar?
My mistake. I never played H5 much so I thought you was refering to the H4 squire.

Quote:
In your logic the Ghost from H2 would not have anything to do with the ghost in HV due to the fact that they both have different abilities
No, in my logic, ghosts from H2 are similar to H5 ghosts because they share the same name.

Quote:
Fallowing this logic the Ginnie from H3 would not have anything incomon with the H3 one due to the fact that except for their look they do have nothing similar (Abilities, faction, price, layer)
???

Quote:
and falowing this logic a little more The Dragon From Heroes 1 would have nothing to do with the Black dragon from Heroes II due to the fact that they have different names.
Well it doesn't matter what kind of color they have. They are still dragons,
something H6 severly lacks.

I don't consider Kirin a dragon because there's actually a mythological creature that goes by that name and its physical description is kinda vague.

I'd still call the coral Maiden a Medusa because that is what it looks like, and because coral maiden is a stupid, uninspired, made-up-for-the-game name. It looks more like Medusa than a naga anyways,

Quote:
Units change throughout time, their abilities, names and looks.
Incorrect. People's notions of what constitutes the "evolution" of HoMM creatures are utterly irrelevant since all the games are stand-alone products.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted June 28, 2012 01:22 PM

Well They are stand alone products. That is true but....
Heroes V and Heroes V ToE are both stand alone. does that make them different games?
The difference between Heroes I and II is mostl graphical. The basic  mechanics are the same, units are the same and their ranking is the same.

And as for the ghosts. They do have the same name but do the have similar Abilities? I do not think so, On the other hand Draining mana and healing itself look very similar to the Wraiths of Heroes III which are, as you sugested, not part of this Evolution.

As far as the Evolution goes. We both very often see discusions about "Classical creatures" It doesn'z matter if these creatures are Dragons, Titans or whatever. Only a limited number of units in each titly is actually new. (Heroes VI has done well in this point.) So the rest is just a new incarnation of the old units. Don't you agree? And if you do agree, comparing several such incarnations can create an evolution tree of this unit.


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store, we teach. We are
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DarkLord
DarkLord


Supreme Hero
Fear me..
posted June 28, 2012 09:51 PM
Edited by DarkLord at 21:56, 28 Jun 2012.

so lets have a look again..

HoMM 1-2



tier 3/6 - Pikeman
tier 4/6 - Swordsman
tier 6/6 - Paladin / Crusader


HoMM 3



tier 1/7 - Pikeman / Halbeldier
tier 4/7 - Swordsman / Crusader


HoMM 4



tier 1/4 - Squire
tier 2/4 - Pikeman
tier 3/4 - Crusader


HoMM 5



tier 3/7 - Footman / Squire / Vindicator


HoMM 6



tier "core"/3 - Sentinel / Praetorian



how should they be divided in their Evolution???

more opinions please..

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Xerox
Xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 28, 2012 10:26 PM

why can't Sentinels be a combination of Pikemen and Footmen?
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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Known Hero
posted June 29, 2012 12:52 AM
Edited by Protolisk at 01:27, 29 Jun 2012.

Quote:
why can't Sentinels be a combination of Pikemen and Footmen?


That's how I've always seen it, at least from a H3 example... That's how I've figured it.

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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
posted June 29, 2012 01:38 AM
Edited by gnomes2169 at 01:40, 29 Jun 2012.

Due to their weapon being a spear, I've always seen them as the evolution of the Pikeman, who just uses an oversized spear (aka the pike) in combat. Whether or not the have the same armor or a shield is irrelevant in this case, it is the weapon that makes the evolution, and thus the unit.
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BIGJOCKER
BIGJOCKER


Promising
Supreme Hero
I'm Back
posted June 29, 2012 01:41 AM

If you take a better look, you will se something like this. At least that's what I see.


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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Known Hero
posted June 29, 2012 01:52 AM

I believe that there is an extra line from the H3 Crusader to the, well, H4 crusader. But this is all just semantics really. The way I see it, they wanted an armored foot soldier, with a pretty simple weapon. And that's exactly what we got. It doesn't really matter what the exact inspiration came from, just that it came from somewhere...

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted June 29, 2012 03:31 AM

you could aswell but a connection betwee the H3 crusader and the hereos 3 one

I see many people only making connections based visuals, not abilities, units function etc.

And btw. gnomes2169
Shield is a part of ones weapons/arms as well as arrow is a part of the bow. Especially when the Sentinel has shield based abilities which are Really not Imho connected in any way to the pikeman.
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We see, we look, we gather,
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store, we teach. We are
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted June 29, 2012 05:01 AM

I rather favor Xerox' idea of both Pikemen and Footmen leading to the Sentinel, though it is still Primarily a Pikeman evolution. For those in need of a restatement of my previous opinions, here goes.
H1&2 Pikemen > H3 Pikemen & Halberdier > H4 Pikeman > (H5 Enforcer & Militia(only the upgrades)?)> H6 Sentinel & Preatorian
H1&2 Swordsman > H3 Swordsman & Crusader > H4 Squire > H5 Footman, Squire, Vindicator > H6 Sentinel & Preatorian
H1&2 Crusader > H3 Crusader > H4 Crusader > H5 Footman, Squire, Vindicator > H6 Sentinel & Preatorian.
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avalon00x
avalon00x


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
posted June 29, 2012 05:59 AM

The sentinel has more to do with the Mountain Guard from H5 fortress.
The sentinels are so defensive just like the mountain guard. Heck even the weapons look alike.

the Crusader Stayed the crusader with the Double hit and tier relation it feels most like a H5 slayer. The H5 Squire is much to low in tier to compare to the H4 Crusader.


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